Lance Armstrong A Cheat or Legend

[thenammagazine]

Star Puffs vs. Nam round 27

I lost count.

 

[mfoga]

It's hearsay until proven. It hasn't been proven.



You sound like an apologist. The problem is that these cyclists (pretty much all of them) are supposedly doping, yet not getting caught despite being tested multiple times. Chasing after the "winner" with accusations and hearsay is NOT going to fix the problem. Only a complete idiot would think it would.

The test to really catch them didn't exist. So they did what wouldn't get caught. Can't blame them.

 

[Blackthornone]

The problem is that getting that level of proof is really freakin' hard when you aren't dealing with someone who is really inept. As was pointed out before, the "bad guys" who are hired to keep cheaters from being caught are likely being paid a hell of a lot more than the "good guys" who are trying to catch cheats. So who has the advantage? Nam, do you believe that 99% of NFL and pro rassler athletes don't juice? Because the evidence may not be there, but I would bet the house that it is happening.

Nam is making assumptions that Lance's former teammates/friends are all jealous liars, others believe those guys because it seems unlikely that so many would start saying the same thing, and about a guy who seemed inhumanly good for many years (which is extremely unlikely when you consider how hard it is to succeed at pro sports like cycling). Whatever belief you hold, it is informed by circumstantial evidence. I don't buy into the "innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt" POV here. It works in a court of law, but that does not always equate to what happens in reality.

Greg LeMond, who is in fact my hero, was devastated when he heard that Armstrong (Gunderson, his REAL name) was working with Michele Ferrari, who was a trainer who had been caught cheating before. Greg LeMond has no relationship with Armstrong. Apparently, Armstrong is kind of a prick when you get to know him. Greg LeMond feels that Armstrong hasn't really made many friends in cycling.

Greg LeMond has said concerning this case, often times, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Based on LeMond's opinion, which I have respect for, Armstrong was cheating. I wanted him to have been clean, so I didn't want to believe Armstrong was cheating, but now I do. I actually wanted to race a long time ago. I have always had an interest in cycling. I always respected Armstrong for his achievements, but now I realize that he had merely been a very crafty cheater. (There IS something to be said for that in itself, as you kind of have to have a small amount of admiration at someone being able to get away with it for so long, so his ingenuity is considerable.) However, his athletic prowess isn't what we have been led to believe.

Armstrong's teammates admitted to guilt and were suspended as a result of their testimony, and so I think that adds tremendous credence
to these charges.

 

[Blackthornone]

The notion that passing his drug tests proves his innocence is spurious reasoning. Anyone cheating in cycling at the time knew they would be tested, so circumventing the tests had to be the prime consideration in any drugs used.

Also saying the ICU or Tour support Armstrong is weak at best. They have a vested interest of image and money in his being untainted. The USADA has no reason to target Armstrong other than genuine conviction in sportsmanship and/or the rules.

You don't need to take drugs to cheat. Blood boosting is cheating, too. Blood boosting involves drawing some of your own blood and putting it into cold storage for awhile, and then continuing training to create all of that blood back. Then, just before a race, you inject your own blood back into you that was in storage, which greatly increases endurance.
It's drug free cheating, and is almost impossible to prove, unless someone catches you doing it, which brings us to Armstrong's teammates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping

Guilty.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejizOV-IQEM[/ame]

 

[The Ween]

The flaw I see in the no proof theory is that half the dope used was some new version not being tested for at the time, hence they don't get caught - baseball and hgh come to mind. I believe EPO was not tested for at the time, but they found it now when his old blood work was retested.

Alot of the dope used in baseball at one time wasn't against baseball rules.

If it wasn't against racing rules at the time he did it, can they still hold that against him?

How long do they keep that blood that they can re-test it?

 

[Blackthornone]

Alot of the dope used in baseball at one time wasn't against baseball rules.

If it wasn't against racing rules at the time he did it, can they still hold that against him?

How long do they keep that blood that they can re-test it?

Blood doping has been against the rules before he even turned pro.
Besides, I don't know that there is even a way to test whether he boosted his blood. How can you test blood for a drug used to cheat when or if cheating wasn't even done using a drug?

 

[The Ween]

No, but if you want to accuse him of it, get a dirty test or shut the yap. If there are exploited loopholes in the testing system, these *******s would be better served figuring out how to close them instead of railing against public figures with nothing more than hearsay. Let's assume Lance cheated by exploiting the system. How is chasing after him to defame him publicly and have his achievements stripped fixing the problem?

As to Cena, I'm not gonna say either way because I neither know nor care. But I will ask, how many of the ****ing idiots here have accused Ski of juicing? He doesn't.

Ski wheezes the ju-uice!!!

 

[thenammagazine]

Blood doping has been against the rules before he even turned pro.
Besides, I don't know that there is even a way to test whether he boosted his blood. How can you test blood for a drug used to cheat when or if cheating wasn't even done using a drug?

Are you accusing him of blood doping?

 

[Blackthornone]

Are you accusing him of blood doping?

I think that considering that his teammates said he cheated, and blood doping is the best way I know of to cheat and still pass a blood test, it is the most likely thing he did. Why would his teammates testify against him if he didn't cheat? He almost has to be a prick when you get to really know him, or otherwise, people would not want to say he cheated.
He may have done things other than blood boosting, but I don't know. All you need to do to boost blood is hide the equipment and let no one see you do it. I think at this point it is clear to me that he cheated.
I am very disappointed.

 

[willocrew]

Talk about flawed logic, that's a horrible comparison. There would be ******l trauma, transfer, etc. There'd still be evidence linking the suspect to the crime. Just because there's no semen, doesn't mean she wasn't raped.

There're a bunch of idiots claiming 911 was an inside job by Bush and the NWO/oil tycoons. You believe them?



Where's the proof?



And you're just bandwagoning. Again, where's the proof? There would be proof.

Clearly you did not read the USADA report, because if you actually did, you would have a clue as to why the USADA were so hell bent on going after Armstrong.

The balance of probability weighs VERY heavily against Lance Armstrong.

For example, Armstrong did not actually undergo as many drug tests as he is claiming. And out of those that he did take, many were actually tests that focused on his health rather than dope detection.

And yes, Armstrong did test positive a few times, one of which was for allegedly taking an olive oil and testosterone mixture, but he claimed it was cortisone cream for saddle sore.

 

[mfoga]

Alot of the dope used in baseball at one time wasn't against baseball rules.

If it wasn't against racing rules at the time he did it, can they still hold that against him?

How long do they keep that blood that they can re-test it?

It was against the rules however it was easy to get around the test by doing it specific times. He would have also been outside the statue of limitations but when started to compete at a pro level again around 2010 (mostly mtn bike and tri events) he restarted the clock and they were allowed to go back and go after him.

 

[Adolfo]

Yes, I do. If these chicken**** organizations cannot provide proof, then they need to rethink their testing methods instead of demonizing public figures to cover up their ineptness. Nobody went after McGwire or Canseco (who openly admitted it in his book). Yet, they run down Bonds for it. Why not Sosa? Because Bonds is more popular. It's all bull****.

I say run them all down...I was talking in general terms...Those guys you named...F them all!...In my past job I would be fired on the spot.....you are right..the owners/orgzs are all cowards...even some freakin fans

 

[BadMoon]

The only thing left for him to do now is just come clean and save some face.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

my question is why even bother wasting time on it after so many years?

it's not like the guy is still competing

 

[The Ween]

True Ink. And spending a lot of money I'm sure. It's not like they can take his awards and give them to the next person in line because chances are, they'd find the same thing going on with that person......and so on. They should just concentrate on keeping the sport clean now.

 

[Lejuan]

Any action they take against Armstrong now sends a signal of intent to competitors and fans of the sport that drug-taking in cycling will not be tolerated. It's part and parcel of cleaning up the sport. But yeah, Ween is right... where does it stop. If they followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd probably see the guy who rode in 242nd being awarded first place.

Cycling has got to run a close second to body building as a sport where *nod nod *wink wink the athletes competing are considered clean. Does anybody really care whether it's clean or not when everybody simply assumes it isn't, and hasn't been for many years?

*yawn.

 

[thenammagazine]

Any action they take against Armstrong now sends a signal of intent to competitors and fans of the sport that drug-taking in cycling will not be tolerated. It's part and parcel of cleaning up the sport. But yeah, Ween is right... where does it stop. If they followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd probably see the guy who rode in 242nd being awarded first place.

Cycling has got to run a close second to body building as a sport where *nod nod *wink wink the athletes competing are considered clean. Does anybody really care whether it's clean or not when everybody simply assumes it isn't, and hasn't been for many years?

*yawn.

Not really. It just means they're willing to tackle someone to get attention. They're not going after any other cyclists.

 

[BadMoon]

True Ink. And spending a lot of money I'm sure. It's not like they can take his awards and give them to the next person in line because chances are, they'd find the same thing going on with that person......and so on. They should just concentrate on keeping the sport clean now.

Try telling that to Penn State players.

 

[The Ween]

And he stepped down as chairman of his cancer foundation.

 

[Lejuan]

Not really. It just means they're willing to tackle someone to get attention. They're not going after any other cyclists.

If they really aren't going after anyone else... what a load of bollocks this witch hunt is then. In that case, yeah, they should just admit the problem was all in the sport to begin with, symptomatic of a broader culture of drug taking.