The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Comic and Un-aired Spoilers unwelcome!)

[Rotfish]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Now that's what I call a season finale. Well, mid-season finale... which makes it even more epic than it already is. Those last moments were filled with enough suspense to keep me satisfied until next October, but thankfully we're getting another half-season!

It's episodes like tonight's that serve as the reason why I love TWD. You understand the motives behind each character and they all have valid points -- yet when a situation is resolved in only one of the possible ways, you get a knot in your stomach no matter what. First, the confrontation between Dale and Andrea. Now, Hershel's views versus those of the group. I can totally empathize with them both, yet somehow the show still manages to keep the excitement alive and to keep me coming back for more information to make judgments on characters I thought I've already made.

Great stuff, can't wait 'till February. 'Nuff said.

 

[denger4000]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Dale is getting pretty annoying.
Who in the group besides him would not use Otis as walker bait to save Carl?

Hmm, lets see, Rick, Glenn, probably T-dog, Daryl. Pretty much no one but Shane actually.

 

[vareika]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Hmm, lets see, Rick, Glenn, probably T-dog, Daryl. Pretty much no one but Shane actually.

Good point. Glenn, T-Dog, Daryl would not have hurt Otis and the hypothetical pair would probably end up dead trying to run. I think only Rick would be "brave" enough to flat out offer himself as walker bait to ensure that Otis made it back with the meds (assumption is that there was literally no other way, but for one of the 2 to remain as bait). Which leads to the other question...given that Shane and Otis were both limping / overburdened (forgot if Otis was actually hurt)...if Shane had acted like anyone else in the group (not being a backstabbing opportunist), there would be two more deaths, leading to Carl's death as well.

On a side note, even though I don't think highly of Laurie, I guess maybe even she would not have shot Otis to save Carl...not sure.

So the verdict is simply that, if anyone but Shane had gone with Otis, that person, Otis, and Carl would have died. (assuming the same zombies jumped them, and they were in the same situation)

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I think Rick would have been smart enough to have found a third way. He never goes for the low hanging fruit, and those who do tend to miss what's hanging from the higher branch.

I am gonna look at it like that. Kirkman confirmed it saying that we'll see Rick toughen up a bit more before season's end.

I know you're going to look at it like that. That's why you said it. Fact is that it had nothing to do with Rick being tough enough to do it. If tough was all it took, Shane would have done it.

I dunno, I think he was cohered by Shane. I almost wonder if he would've sided with Hershall there, if the majority of his crew weren't up with Shane blasting away the other zombies.

He wasn't cornered. Once they were out, there was no other option but to shoot them. He had already sided with Hershel insofar as he was humoring him for the sake of being allowed to stay. It was Hershel's farm and he had every right to keep the dead in his barn. Rick has a better grasp of ownership than Shane (who seems to think that if he needs something, the 'rules' of this brave new world allow him to take it by force).

Once Sophia was out, everyone was in shock; Rick did the deed because it's in his nature to take responsibility. It was her own fault for not waiting for him, but he took the chance of leaving her alone so he owned up to the consequence.

In the end though, it just kinda reveals the writers wrote themselves into a corner. . .

"How do we get Sophia in the barn without anyone asking how??"

"Well, let's just say Otis did it, and he's dead, so nobody can question it.

Writing themselves into a corner would not have resulted in a climax as powerful as that. It's a minor detail and doesn't require any more of an explanation than what they gave.

 

[plasmid303]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I hope Rick's leadership is called into question by the group in the coming episodes. He's made some pretty bad decisions so far this season, two of which involve the fate of both children in the group.

What is it with this guy and kids? Shoots one in the head, gets his own kid shot, and leaves one in a zombie infested forested to get bitten, zombified and then subsequently shot in the head from mr. leader himself.

 

[KarenRoss]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Pheww Dale, you almost missed the mid season finale.
I´d have been pretty pissed if I were him, all this time looking for Sophia and when she´s found you´re just late to the party, lol

Amazing episode, best one of this season so far, next to the first one of this season (imo).
Is it February yet?! Can´t wait!

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

In the ____ing barn? The whole time? No one cared to say "you know even though Otis was rounding them up, I noticed a little girl I don't recognize in there all of a sudden." or is it to be believed that Otis just rounded these things up and never said anything like "caught one more a little girl." to anyone? It wasn't like she was damaged beyond belief or that there were thousands in there.

Slight bull____ IMHO.

On a positive note bring on

Spoiler:

Michonne

although how she'll be woven into this new continuity is going to be interesting. Not to mention

Spoiler:

The Governor

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I hope Rick's leadership is called into question by the group in the coming episodes. He's made some pretty bad decisions so far this season, two of which involve the fate of both children in the group.

What is it with this guy and kids? Shoots one in the head, gets his own kid shot, and leaves one in a zombie infested forested to get bitten, zombified and then subsequently shot in the head from mr. leader himself.

What would that accomplish?

Yeah Shane should be leading them. No question. Rick sucks. Kill him off.

 

[OSCORP]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

In the ____ing barn? The whole time? No one cared to say "you know even though Otis was rounding them up, I noticed a little girl I don't recognize in there all of a sudden." or is it to be believed that Otis just rounded these things up and never said anything like "caught one more a little girl." to anyone? It wasn't like she was damaged beyond belief or that there were thousands in there.

Slight bull____ IMHO.

Yeah i guess, great episode though.

 

[The Ween]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Please be careful with the spoilers. I don't read the comics and I don't plan to because I want to be surprised. Just don't give anything away in trying to set up your spoilers.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Michael Crawford]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Great episode. So glad they handled the Sophie situation that way - it worked perfectly for the overall plot development.

Shane is not a leader. Shane would get the entire group killed - or kill them himself when necessary. People seem to forget his actual agenda. He's not doing anything for the group, but to get Lori, Carl and now the baby as his. He made the decision to kill the walkers in the barn not out of any sort of concern for the group, but to destroy Rick.

He's not sane anymore, any more than Herschel is. He's teetering on total self destruction, and his action at the barn was proof. He was completely out of control, with no concern for the safety of anyone around him, including Lori and Carl.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Andrea. While they have plenty of potential ways that Shane could eventually end up dead (and I'm assuming he has to at some point, since he's going to spin further and further out of control and become a greater and greater threat to Rick), but one I hadn't seen coming was the inclusion of Andrea. She's seeing things his way right now, which is not uncommon when someone makes you feel important and special. Suddenly they are the greatest thing in the world, but when you figure out they aren't, it's like crashing on a bad trip. I could see them setting things up now where she ends up the one to kill him after getting closer to him over a couple episodes.

Can't wait til it starts up again!

 

[The Ween]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I can't remember the last time watching a tv show made my heart pound the way it did during that whole barn sequence. I was so wrapped up in it that I had completely forgotten about Sophia, so that completely took me by surprise.

I thought it was going to be the vet's wife. I forgot about Sofia as well.

Too bad she couldn't have taken a hunk out of Shane before Rick shot her.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

In the ____ing barn? The whole time? No one cared to say "you know even though Otis was rounding them up, I noticed a little girl I don't recognize in there all of a sudden." or is it to be believed that Otis just rounded these things up and never said anything like "caught one more a little girl." to anyone? It wasn't like she was damaged beyond belief or that there were thousands in there.

Slight bull____ IMHO.

Carl was shot on the second day she was missing. Otis left for the school with Shane that night. It's entirely conceivable that he didn't get a chance to discuss finding the girl with anyone in between.

 

[Michael Crawford]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Yea, I can't even remember when they first mentioned to Herschel's group that they were looking for Sophia - was it before Otis died? It might not have been, although you would have thought it would be something you'd ask right away.

I do assume the explanation will simply be Otis put her in the barn and didn't mention it (I can see why too - it was a little girl, nothing but bad news there, why tell the others on the farm when it would only bring them down and there was nothing to be done?) but it is a bit weak overall. Still, the resolution makes me more willing to allow for the slight plot abnormality.

 

[bg188]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Wow. What an amazing episode. Those last ten minutes were some of the most intense and powerful moments I've ever witnessed in a TV show. I absolutely cannot wait to see what they have planned for the final half of this season.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I think Rick would have been smart enough to have found a third way. He never goes for the low hanging fruit, and those who do tend to miss what's hanging from the higher branch.

I dunno. What I saw in the episode was Rick helping Hershall with the zombies which means, while he may not agree with Hershall's POV, he was accepting it and willing to embrace it.

I know you're going to look at it like that. That's why you said it. Fact is that it had nothing to do with Rick being tough enough to do it. If tough was all it took, Shane would have done it.

Shane wouldn't have pulled the trigger if Rick had walked in front of his gun. He's not to that point yet. Close, but not yet. I'm split on leadership. Rick has made a lot of decisions that have gotten people killed. He could've told Sophia to stay put under the log (which is what I would've done), instead of sending her off. Remember, he told her to head back to the highway. That was an unnecessary death. We've already discussed how Otis' was necessary by comparison.

He wasn't cornered. Once they were out, there was no other option but to shoot them. He had already sided with Hershel insofar as he was humoring him for the sake of being allowed to stay. It was Hershel's farm and he had every right to keep the dead in his barn. Rick has a better grasp of ownership than Shane (who seems to think that if he needs something, the 'rules' of this brave new world allow him to take it by force).

Once Sophia was out, everyone was in shock; Rick did the deed because it's in his nature to take responsibility. It was her own fault for not waiting for him, but he took the chance of leaving her alone so he owned up to the consequence.

Spell check jacked me. I didn't mean to say "cornered" but coerced. I don't believe for a second that he would've shot Sophia if he'd come across her with Hershall. But the fact that his group was dropping them forced him to take sides. And he chose them over Hershall. If he'd wanted to, he could've just as easily pulled the collar off of the dead zombie and used it to catch Sophia and put her back in the barn. At that point, nobody would've stopped him.

But regardless, Kirkman himself said that we're going to see Rick "toughen up" more this season, on The Talking Dead. Sophia was the catalyst for him realizing that basically, while Shane is borderline at this point, Rick needs to adopt certain aspects of Shane's behavior to successfully lead and protect the group.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I dunno. What I saw in the episode was Rick helping Hershall with the zombies which means, while he may not agree with Hershall's POV, he was accepting it and willing to embrace it.

I meant the night at the school. Vareika was saying if anyone but Shane had gone with Otis, Carl would be dead.

But yeah, Rick was humoring Hershel.

Shane wouldn't have pulled the trigger if Rick had walked in front of his gun. He's not to that point yet. Close, but not yet.

I should have been more clear. I meant shooting Sophia. That seemed to stop Shane dead in his tracks. Suddenly, the zombies were more than a threat/tool, and he froze with everyone else. Rick was the only one capable of action in that moment, but it was not ruthlessness that motivated him.

I'm split on leadership. Rick has made a lot of decisions that have gotten people killed. He could've told Sophia to stay put under the log (which is what I would've done), instead of sending her off. Remember, he told her to head back to the highway. That was an unnecessary death. We've already discussed how Otis' was necessary by comparison.

He told her how to get back to the highway if he didn't come back. He was allowing for the possibility that he might fail. She disobeyed him by leaving the hiding spot. It didn't take him long to return (she was gone by the time the rest of them reached the spot by the river).

Spell check jacked me. I didn't mean to say "cornered" but coerced. I don't believe for a second that he would've shot Sophia if he'd come across her with Hershall. But the fact that his group was dropping them forced him to take sides. And he chose them over Hershall. If he'd wanted to, he could've just as easily pulled the collar off of the dead zombie and used it to catch Sophia and put her back in the barn. At that point, nobody would've stopped him.

By the time she was out there, the charade of saving them was done. He didn't need to humor Hershel any longer, and ending her was the fastest way to end Carol's torture. He shot her because it was the right thing to do.

I thought the parallel with the opening scene from episode 1.01 was awesome. Gave me chills.

But regardless, Kirkman himself said that we're going to see Rick "toughen up" more this season, on The Talking Dead. Sophia was the catalyst for him realizing that basically, while Shane is borderline at this point, Rick needs to adopt certain aspects of Shane's behavior to successfully lead and protect the group.

That makes a lot of sense. Particularly if he's going to effectively deal with Shane. My quaalm with Shane is how he deals with other people. Rick needs to be able to deal with him on the same terms, otherwise, he'll fall prey to his game, same way Dale did (that lucky sonuva_____...)

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Rick shooting Sophia is the beginning of his journey to becoming a "tougher" leader. She was his responsibility and he saw it through to the end. Not the ending any of them were hoping for, but an ending nonetheless.

The difference between Rick and Shane is that Rick has the ability to continue to evolve into a more complete leader while Shane already thinks he is there. Shane has a "it's my way or no way" type of attitude which puts him at odds with many people. Rick is more open to listening to different viewpoints and learning from them. I am not even sure Shane wants to be a leader. Has he ever said it? He always defers to Rick and then trash talks about his decisions behind his back. All I see motivating Shane right now is Lori and Carl. He said to Dale that he loves Rick like a brother, but his actions say something entirely different.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

That makes a lot of sense. Particularly if he's going to effectively deal with Shane. My quaalm with Shane is how he deals with other people. Rick needs to be able to deal with him on the same terms, otherwise, he'll fall prey to his game, same way Dale did (that lucky sonuva_____...)

I dunno. While Shane talks a big game, I don't think he has the balls to shoot Dale, yet. Not without some huge push, and I mean huge. I liken their relationship to Dock Frankenstein and Rhodes in Day of the Dead.

I kinda wish they'd used the original scene with Sophia. Originally, they'd shot her coming out of the barn, without make-up, slowly walking toward the group, which was why nobody shot. In that instance, the entire group saw her as Hershall sees the walkers. Then Rick steps up and just before he pulls the trigger, she snarls at him in full prosthetics. It's always a shame when they dumb down something for the masses. If they'd gone with that ending, it would've showed more why Rick's the leader.

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I dunno. While Shane talks a big game, I don't think he has the balls to shoot Dale, yet. Not without some huge push, and I mean huge. I liken their relationship to Dock Frankenstein and Rhodes in Day of the Dead.

I kinda wish they'd used the original scene with Sophia. Originally, they'd shot her coming out of the barn, without make-up, slowly walking toward the group, which was why nobody shot. In that instance, the entire group saw her as Hershall sees the walkers. Then Rick steps up and just before he pulls the trigger, she snarls at him in full prosthetics. It's always a shame when they dumb down something for the masses. If they'd gone with that ending, it would've showed more why Rick's the leader.

Was that something they discussed on Talking Dead? I thought the ending they used worked better.