The Avengers VS The Dark Knight

[DarkMagic]

The fact that you're even attempting to comparing Raul Julia and Street Fighter (by Steven E. de Souza) to Heath Ledger and The Dark Knight (by Chris Nolan) is extreeeeeeeeeeeemely sad and pathetic.

If you are going where I think you are with this Nam, it falls in with my point. It's not a direct point to point comparison between the two movies, but more between the two properties and whether or not "posthumous star power" is a driving force in the box office success of the property. Raul Julia before Street Fighter was at least as famous as Heath Ledger before TDK (if not moreso). I think it's fair to compare their star power, and based on Raul's career, even let him claim more of it than Heath had. Street Fighter was a popular property with a horrible movie (kinda like Batman and Robin, no?) but yet it didn't do as well as B&R in absolute terms, or relatively as well as TDK in proportional terms to it's own budget. (Of course I am not comparing Street Fighter box office return directly to TDKs box office return--that's unfair considering TDK had much bigger budget. Therefore I am comparing each film's box office return to it's own budget. Per ever 1 dollar spent to make Street Fighter, it earned about 3. Per every 1 dollar spent to make TDK, it earned about 6. Street Fighter was a big property, but it is dwarfed in comparison to the Batman property...which I think you are going with the "attempting to compare" above. OF COURSE a BATMAN movie is going to make relatively more than a STREET FIGHTER movie, (that is what I have been saying)..., but because it is BATMAN movie---not because it is a "famous actor died" movie. The same applies to comparing Nolan and de Souza...if your point is that a Nolan-directed movie attracts more than de Souza...AGREED...that is yet another factor for the relative success of TDK over Street Fighter.

Really? Street Fighter is all you have after all your bull____ text walls?
How old are you? I remember Raul's passing, I remember Heath's passing. If you remember both and you think Raul generated a fraction of the news that Heath's did it pretty much sums up why your opinion is so myopic on the subject. Plus, going back to some of your earlier BS, I never said that TDK was a hit because of Ledgers passing, I said it was a crutch of free publicity. Again, I have no problems with discussions, but if you're going to try to twist what I'm saying so that you can have some of my attention then its not going to be a discussion its just going to be a flame war.

Question for both you and Nam. If (when) TDKR does better in the box office than TDK, what will the excuse/explanation be? The general concensus on this board seems to be that it isn't being hyped up as much as the lead-in months to TDK were hyped...and it doesn't have the "crutch of free publicity" from a dead actor that TDK had.

 

[thenammagazine]

Agreed. Street Fighter proves that a guy who only knows Karate can beat all kinds of wacky soldiers and a Bison with special boots and whatnot. Sorry, but Nam was wrong about this one. *cue Van Damme speech*

 

[Niltusk]

Question for both you and Nam. If (when) TDKR does better in the box office than TDK, what will the excuse/explanation be? The general concensus on this board seems to be that it isn't being hyped up as much as the lead-in months to TDK were hyped...and it doesn't have the "crutch of free publicity" from a dead actor that TDK had.

Its a Nolan Bat film with a huge built in audience. If its at least equal to the previous two I'll probably see it two to three times minimum on the big screen. Even if it sucks I'd have already seen it once when it opened without any types of commercials because I'm a comic fan. Its numbers could well crush anything we've seen previously, but that doesn't change the fact (and by fact I mean imo) that they'd be even higher if Bale would eat a bullet the day before opening.

 

[intothevoid]

Personally I agree that Heath's death probably did give TDK a box office boost, but I don't think it would have made Begins numbers (under $500MM worldwide) if Heath's death hadn't happened.

The movie was being hyped like crazy even before Heath died due to a brilliant viral campaign and a December trailer that had everyone going batcrazy. It was destined to have a great BO run given the fact that it was not only hyped, but met/exceeded expectations for a lot of people, leading to multiple repeat viewings. Yeah maybe if Heath hadn't died, it would have made $800 or 900MM worldwide and not achieved the $1Bn mark. Who knows? The BO takings for TDKR will give us somewhat of a clue as has been suggested.

What I TOTALLY disagree with though, is the contention that Heath only won the Oscar because of his death. I will never agree with that, there was no comparable performance in a supporting actor role that year. The Oscar was fully deserved.

 

[Niltusk]

What I TOTALLY disagree with though, is the contention that Heath only won the Oscar because of his death. I will never agree with that, there was no comparable performance in a supporting actor role that year. The Oscar was fully deserved.

This I agree with. This was a shining role for Ledger, he deserved his accolades, its too bad he died before he could see how well his performance was appreciated by the masses.

 

[Darth Cruel]

Avengers at +41? I am surprised that TDK is doing that well against it.

 

[Kibagami]

Avengers at +41? I am surprised that TDK is doing that well against it.

Yeah and the movie hasn't came out yet.

 

[IrishJedi]

Yeah and the movie hasn't came out yet.

Actually it came out 4 years ago.

 

[K07]

Avengers at +41? I am surprised that TDK is doing that well against it.

Have ya read the last five pages here?

For the record, I only know ONE person who went to see TDK because of they publicity about Heath Ledger. That'd be my mom who is not into geeky things or movies in general. She heard all about his performance on the news and knew I'd seen it 3x in less than a week and she decided to go with the rest of my family one day (who were all seeing it for their second time). She highly recommended the movie to some neighbors who weren't into comics either. She said it was unlike any comic book thing she'd ever seen. She wasn't selling just Ledger's performance. She was selling the whole movie.

So while SOME people may have gone for the hype about Heath, they kept coming back for the whole movie. And considering we're on a forum about comic book stuff, I think we can assume MOST of us here didn't go because of Heath Ledger. We went because it was a Batman movie. I was excited for TDK the moment BB ended in theaters on its opening day. I followed it extensively all the way and was getting more and more pumped for it. I get that vibe from a lot of folks around here. I'm personally happy TDKR isn't following the same marketing route. I know a ton of people who are pumped for it and Ledger's not in it.

 

[Kibagami]

Actually it came out 4 years ago.

Oh ____, I thought we were talking about the third movie.

 

[ExMem-LarjaThwei]

I miss Heath Ledger.

 

[DarkMagic]

Have ya read the last five pages here?

For the record, I only know ONE person who went to see TDK because of they publicity about Heath Ledger. That'd be my mom who is not into geeky things or movies in general. She heard all about his performance on the news and knew I'd seen it 3x in less than a week and she decided to go with the rest of my family one day (who were all seeing it for their second time). She highly recommended the movie to some neighbors who weren't into comics either. She said it was unlike any comic book thing she'd ever seen. She wasn't selling just Ledger's performance. She was selling the whole movie.

So while SOME people may have gone for the hype about Heath, they kept coming back for the whole movie. And considering we're on a forum about comic book stuff, I think we can assume MOST of us here didn't go because of Heath Ledger. We went because it was a Batman movie. I was excited for TDK the moment BB ended in theaters on its opening day. I followed it extensively all the way and was getting more and more pumped for it. I get that vibe from a lot of folks around here. I'm personally happy TDKR isn't following the same marketing route. I know a ton of people who are pumped for it and Ledger's not in it.

This is what I'm saying. The people that went to see TDK would have went to see it anyway, because they were interested in seeing the movie. The people that saw it multiple times, (the comics fans like you and me and many on this board) would have went to see it multiple times anyway. The people that didn't go to see it weren't swayed by Ledger's death, they still had no interest in seeing it anyway.

How can anyone quantify the effect that Heath Ledger's death had on ticket sales, if any? Much less give it credit for pushing it past the 1bn mark? Isn't it more likely that a combination of the rave critical reviews, word of mouth reviews, quality of direction, acting, production, and the fact that it was a summer blockbuster from a huge comic and movie franchise are the reasons for its box office success?

 

[thenammagazine]

This is what I'm saying. The people that went to see TDK would have went to see it anyway, because they were interested in seeing the movie. The people that saw it multiple times, (the comics fans like you and me and many on this board) would have went to see it multiple times anyway. The people that didn't go to see it weren't swayed by Ledger's death, they still had no interest in seeing it anyway.

How can anyone quantify the effect that Heath Ledger's death had on ticket sales, if any? Much less give it credit for pushing it past the 1bn mark? Isn't it more likely that a combination of the rave critical reviews, word of mouth reviews, quality of direction, acting, production, and the fact that it was a summer blockbuster from a huge comic and movie franchise are the reasons for its box office success?

So are you that naive as to completely discredit the billions of dollars in free advertising TDK received internationally through Ledger's death coverage?

 

[karamazov80]

It was a good movie. It would have succeeded on its own merits. But there is little doubt in my mind that Ledger's death, and the attention around it, played a big role in how well it actually did.

 

[DarkMagic]

So are you that naive as to completely discredit the billions of dollars in free advertising TDK received internationally through Ledger's death coverage?

What is with you and the ad hominem attacks man? Can't you just disagree with someone without labelling them as "naive" or "ignorant" just because they don't share your opinion?

"Billions" sounds rather specific. I don't doubt that Ledger's death got a lot of news coverage, but look at my post...how exactly do you quantify something so nebulous? Beyond conjecture, how can you even begin to guestimate how much (or how little) effect his death and it's coverage had on ticket sales?

The "because-he-died" argument is used over and over without anything concrete to back it up.

TDK did so well "because-he-died". Sure, not because it was the sequel to a strong reboot in a popular franchise.

Heath Ledger won the Oscar "because-he-died". Sure, not because the Academy voters actually thought his performance was the best that year.

Its such a convenient crutch for those that want to discredit TDKs critical and commercial success, and the best part is, because it's so uncertain they don't have to back it up with anything, they can just throw it out there with no support.

They are arguing a thought experiment against what is, using non-existent or non-quantifiable evidence of what they *think* could have been. I am arguing for what is...using evidence of....what is.

 

[ZaCHw117]

I know, Ledger's death brought extra attention to the film yes.

The two thing I don't agree with are that of the general public's opinion that Ledger's portrayal of the Joker "killed him." And that Ledger won the Oscar as a "pity win".

 

[thenammagazine]

The two thing I don't agree with are that of the general public's opinion that Ledger's portrayal of the Joker "killed him." And that Ledger won the Oscar as a "pity win".

You don't have to. It wasn't a pity win. I've used the term "sympathy Oscar" which is what they're called, but I didn't mean everybody felt sad for his passing and gave him the Oscar. He'd been snubbed for far better roles previously and this was the Academy's last chance to award him for his works. I don't see what's so hard not to understand about that?

 

[ZaCHw117]

You don't have to. It wasn't a pity win. I've used the term "sympathy Oscar" which is what they're called, but I didn't mean everybody felt sad for his passing and gave him the Oscar. He'd been snubbed for far better roles previously and this was the Academy's last chance to award him for his works. I don't see what's so hard not to understand about that?

So, Nam, you think Ledger wouldn't have got it if he was still alive today? Who do you think would have won then? Just wondering.

 

[thenammagazine]

So, Nam, you think Ledger wouldn't have got it if he was still alive today? Who do you think would have won then? Just wondering.

As much as I like TDK, if Ledger hadn't passed and had gone on to more films (meaning more opportunities to win), it'd have been between Brolin and Hoffman. Ledger's done better roles than Joker.

 

[ZaCHw117]

IDK, I think Ledger put everything he had into that roll, if he was still alive today, people would compare everything else he played in to that roll.

He's become apart of pop culture history. I'd say, and yes this is coming from a Nolan nut, that Ledger's Joker is the best villain put on screen since Darth Vader.