Quiz... Capitalist or Socialist?

[RoboDad]

Wofford and drbrad, I applaud you both. You have far more patience than I do in the face of such unabashed hyperbole.

 

[barbelith]

The 4.7 million families currently receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) have already spent, on average, six-and-a-half years on welfare.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the welfare system in general and not TANF in particular. AFDC (for quite obvious reasons) runs longer than individual aid. What year are your figures from? In 2006 only 1.9 million families drew on TANF. I'm assuming your figure is out of date as the program is no longer called AFDC.

I've deleted all your assumptions of causality.

You can tell yourself that, but in the reality it's absolutely true.

All people named Dave are jackasses?

Raising a minimum wage does nothing for the economy but weaken it.

Nonsense. Our economy has weakened despite a worsening of the real value of the minimum wage. If you want to jump start the economy on $13,624 then you'll need one that's not based on consumerism. It's canard that raising the minimum wage costs jobs. A minimum wage hike only affects people making minimum wage and jobs aren't eliminated on the basis of 50¢ an hour. I'm sorry but it's fearmongering by the upper class and it's sickening.

The government just recently seized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to hopefully right a sinking ship

Proof by the way that private solutions aren't always better.

 

[devilof76]

I scored 100% capitalist. What do I win?

 

[Anzik]

No one can rise above their station in life unless they are determined to do it themselves. Making poverty more comfortable ensures they will stay there.
With determination and hard work anyone can improve their life.
I'm 56% Capitalist and 44% socialist, but I answered the questions with the slant in mind so I'm sure it skewed the score.

 

[thedarkknight]

12% Capitalist; 88% Socialist

 

[8th wonder]

No one can rise above their station in life unless they are determined to do it themselves. Making poverty more comfortable ensures they will stay there.
With determination and hard work anyone can improve their life.
I'm 56% Capitalist and 44% socialist, but I answered the questions with the slant in mind so I'm sure it skewed the score.

It's just a cage, who says i want to improve my life in the capitalist prison they call society? Maybe i or others wanted something different? Not possible though, cause they stole all our natural resources. If i want to eat or live i need to slave for people that stole the things nature gave me for free. Freedom is a word for men with to much money, it means nothing for the man he tramples with his golden boots to get there. Adam Smith was deluded and short-sighted.

 

[wofford29]

ahh, the invisible hand of self interest. How true it rings.

 

[barbelith]

No one can rise above their station in life unless they are determined to do it themselves. Making poverty more comfortable ensures they will stay there.

It's funny. The states with the most generous welfare programs use them far less than the states with the most draconian welfare programs. That would seem to indicate the opposite is true. But it's like the old observation that blue states are usually more prosperous than red states. It seems counter-intuitive if all you're doing is listening to talk radio.

 

[8th wonder]

ahh, the invisible hand of self interest. How true it rings.

Indeed especially when deluded idiots think that modern society isn't just a bunch of greedy bastards running around calling themselves civil while raping anyone and everything to pursue their own pathetic materialistic dreams. Nobody gives a ^^^^ about their fellow man, it's about feeding the beast. I say give socialism another shot, a non-violent version ofcourse.

 

[devilof76]

It's just a cage, who says i want to improve my life in the capitalist prison they call society? Maybe i or others wanted something different? Not possible though, cause they stole all our natural resources. If i want to eat or live i need to slave for people that stole the things nature gave me for free. Freedom is a word for men with to much money, it means nothing for the man he tramples with his golden boots to get there. Adam Smith was deluded and short-sighted.

Stole them from who? You? And who decided that these things belong to you and not someone else? Are you suggesting that we divide the material of the earth equally among us? So that we each have an equal helping of each square of the periodic table? And whenever someone new is born, we put everything back into the pile and divide it up again?

So what happens when two people decide to trade their shares? You can't do a lot with only so much iron, only so much copper, only so much nickel, etc. Some may be better at working with some materials, yielding greater use from that, and not something else. Are you suggesting that we all exist at a level of subsistence commensurate with what can be done with the original allotment? With our originally gifted piles of dirt?

Or should we all just say to hell with materials, lets just use the rocks, and sticks, and animals that nature randomly generated, without changing any of what we have found ourselves surrounded with?

Suppose someone doesn't want to live the life of a hunter-gatherer. Who's going to tell them they can't? You? Some philosopher kings? A committe of the elect? A politburo? A god-king? Are you going to persuade them? Or will you stop them by force? Suppose they refuse to submit to your force? Then what? Suppose there are many who oppose it? Whose fault will it be when the first war in this happy little communist eden starts? The one who opposed the status quo? Or the one who thought freedom was a tool for oppressing the masses, and by moral right needed to be crushed at the first sign of independent thought?

Welcome to your bloodless socialism.

 

[barbelith]

Mixed economies are the best solution.

 

[Anzik]

It's funny. The states with the most generous welfare programs use them far less than the states with the most draconian welfare programs. That would seem to indicate the opposite is true. But it's like the old observation that blue states are usually more prosperous than red states. It seems counter-intuitive if all you're doing is listening to talk radio.

Here is a view of Camden NJ 10 minutes from my house, which I am sure is not visible from Utopia. $175 million in aid. $314 million in total over the last five years.

Tell me how much good Democratic control of our major cities for the last 25-50 years done. I don't need talk radio. I have something you don't called reality.
I'm sure your next argument will be how I'm making assumptions based on my own prejudices, so I will give you what I information I base my views on: My sister in law and mother in law both work in Camden in social services. My mother was a social worker for 25 years. Another sister in law and her husband are both probation officers dealing with the real face of statistics. I know you don't accept 'anecdotal evidence' or any other facts that might cloud the issue.
Too much government help creates dependency which prevents independence.

 

[barbelith]

Here is a view of Camden NJ 10 minutes from my house, which I am sure is not visible from Utopia. $175 million in aid. $314 million in total over the last five years.

I don't recall anyone saying the welfare program meant streets like the one you cherrypicked don't exist. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, of course. Everyone named Dave is a jackass. Well anecdotally the face of welfare is black. Statistically blacks are a distinct minority among welfare recipients. "Anecdotal evidence" is rarely meaningful evidence. Anecdotally the libertarians are going to win the election because 90% of the people I spoke to at the libertarian convention said that's how they were voting.

There are streets like your picture in Baltimore, where I used to live. It says nothing about the state of welfare in Maryland and everything about the socioeconomic condition of a specific part of a specific city.

Tell me how much good Democratic control of our major cities for the last 25-50 years done. I don't need talk radio. I have something you don't called reality.

The reality is that states with the most generous programs have smaller welfare rolls than states with the harshest programs. This shows that all the whining about dependency is canard and something else is going on. These are complex issues that are not aided by projecting causal connections where none exist.

 

[Anzik]

Cherry picked?! LOLOLOL drive through Camden and find a street that doesn't look like that outside of the renovated waterfront.
If you down Haddon avenue, a main street that runs right through the heart of the city you will see more plywood than at Home Depot.
How about this street?

 

[barbelith]

Cherry picked?!

You don't appear to have provided a comprehensive overview of the state of welfare in New Jersey, no. And I daresay nobody will be shocked by the notion that the people living in the most distressed streets in America are the same ones collecting welfare.

 

[Anzik]

That second photo is right outside my house. I don't collect welfare.
That entire side of the street is section 8 housing subsidized by the government.


D'oh that pesky reality always gets in the way.

Have you ever walked through a city? And not just near the college where police patrol regularly. West Philadelphia? North Philly just outside Temple University?
Camden? My friend Tom was in Lady of Lourdes hospital where he just had his leg amputated. Some gang members came in and proceeded to beat the living crap out of the guy in the bed next to him.
How about NYC? Ever been there?
Wilmington, Delaware? Baltimore MD? I've been to all these places and seen how much good subsidies and assistance have done.
I'm sure you have a report somewhere that says it's not that bad though.

 

[wofford29]

You don't appear to have provided a comprehensive overview of the state of welfare in New Jersey, no. And I daresay nobody will be shocked by the notion that the people living in the most distressed streets in America are the same ones collecting welfare.

Just out of curiosity, and because this is the thread you'll probably be in until it gets locked, but do you collect anything? I don't think I've seen you participate in an actual collectible thread since you've started posting.

 

[barbelith]

That second photo is right outside my house. I don't collect welfare. That entire side of the street is section 8 housing subsidized by the government.

And that gives us a comprehensive overview of the state of New Jersey's welfare system how?

Have you ever walked through a city?

I used to live in Baltimore. "The Wire" part of Baltimore. Not awesome. But also grossly misleading, because you're doing what always happens when we allow anecdotal evidence to override fact and reason - expanding that to encompass the totality of the issue and then leaping to causal relationships. Baltimore for example is not a cesspool because of welfare. Welfare doesn't drive you to a life of crime and violence. It doesn't even make sense using your own perspective. If welfare is the sweet easy life of collecting checks and living on easy street, where's the motivation? Except then we get lists of areas rather removed from easy street, and - oh, just wake me when the conservative argument starts making sense.

Just out of curiosity, and because this is the thread you'll probably be in until it gets locked, but do you collect anything? I don't think I've seen you participate in an actual collectible thread since you've started posting.

Yes, I collect and yes, I've posted in collectible threads. I guess it would be kind of creepy if you knew my post history, so let's consider it a good thing you haven't followed me around!

 

[woodsy]

Just out of curiosity, and because this is the thread you'll probably be in until it gets locked, but do you collect anything? I don't think I've seen you participate in an actual collectible thread since you've started posting.

I don't even care if he collects SS [and then sells them and gives all the proceeds to the poor like I'm sure he does ] My question is...why even bother with this guy? I mean really, 500 posts of nothing but mindless socialist drivel...what's the point????

 

[barbelith]

I have a novel idea. Instead of tearing each other down or arguing about whether using Section 8 in response to TANF is comparing apples to oranges or whether $13k per year is far too much money for one person's salary or whether the one black guy you know fairly represents all black people everywhere (hello anecdotal evidence), why don't we actually try to do something positive and additive?

We all seem to agree some form of welfare is a valid application of government power and we all seem to agree on time caps. We also all seem to be experts in the field, so maybe we can come together and hash out a feasible welfare plan that addresses everyone's concerns.

Anyone want to take a shot at it?

I mean really, 500 posts of nothing but mindless socialist drivel...what's the point?

Presumably the same point as your own 500 posts of nothing but mindless right wing drivel - conversation and the exchange of ideas. I'm sure there's a forum somewhere for people who prefer to exist in an echo chamber; have you tried enrolling there?