Explosion hits Government Buldings in Oslo,Norway!

[BadMoon]

I hope so too. I know I am not alone in my interpretation - nearly all my educated Muslim friends share this view. It is just unfortunate the the sane voices are drowned out by the insane screams. We have only ourselves to blame for not making the true, moderate, centralist version of Islam more accessable ... but I try.

IMO I don't see how you can blame yourself? These terrorists are brought up this way. If you tried to educate them with a different version of their religion they would likely seek to destroy you.

You can't educate people that don't want to be educated.

 

[intothevoid]

IMO I don't see how you can blame yourself? These terrorists are brought up this way. If you tried to educate them with a different version of their religion they would likely seek to destroy you.

You can't educate people that don't want to be educated.

It's true they are beyond saving but if you are able to change the way they are brought up, and monitor the standard of the education they receive to ensure its not of the 'brainwash' variety, then you'll be on the way to making a sustainable change.

That is my aim, to be involved in those type of projects in the future. It is going to take a generation to fix the course but it can be done.

 

[BadMoon]

It's true they are beyond saving but if you are able to change the way they are brought up, and monitor the standard of the education they receive to ensure its not of the 'brainwash' variety, then you'll be on the way to making a sustainable change.

That is my aim, to be involved in those type of projects in the future. It is going to take a generation to fix the course but it can be done.

Well good luck to you!

 

[intothevoid]

Thanks

 

[devilof76]

My thoughts as well.

I hope so too. I know I am not alone in my interpretation - nearly all my educated Muslim friends share this view. It is just unfortunate the the sane voices are drowned out by the insane screams. We have only ourselves to blame for not making the true, moderate, centralist version of Islam more accessable ... but I try.

My sole point is that the insane are gaining momentum and refusing to identify what they are after, and what they use for justification does not help the problem. I absolutely do not believe in any form of repression based on religious identity---I would no sooner disenfranchise a man for being Muslim than I would for him being Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, or atheist. But your understanding of the religion's teachings are not the understanding that has been practiced for the majority of its history, and the screaming insane are no less influential or dangerous by virtue of the fact that they can't read.

Yes, there is some appeasement (or a lot, depending on where you look). Most blatant is the failure to reign in Saudi Arabia and its terrorist funding elite for fear of endagering the supply of oil to West.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, et al. Efforts to silence criticism of the radicals is less blatant, but no less endemic.

But anyhow, this discussion can carry on into infinity. I guess we can agree on the basic notions

And I wish it hadn't come up in the first place. But it's not as though there was not ample reason to expect that this act of violence was not simply more of the same.

 

[intothevoid]

My thoughts as well.

But your understanding of the religion's teachings are not the understanding that has been practiced for the majority of its history, and the screaming insane are no less influential or dangerous by virtue of the fact that they can't read.

Yes that is true, unfortunately.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, et al. Efforts to silence criticism of the radicals is less blatant, but no less endemic.

It is actually quite blatant in some instances as well, disturbingly so.

And I wish it hadn't come up in the first place. But it's not as though there was not ample reason to expect that this act of violence was not simply more of the same.

I can't blame anyone for assuming that - that is the hole Islam is in due to the acts of a few

 

[Spartan Rex]

Appreciate your perspective Void.
Any thoughts on why it is so many of radical Islams leaders come from wealth and are fairly well educated?
i.e. Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri,Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Mohamed Atta for instance?
Who brain washed them?

 

[devilof76]

The radicals in the French Revolution and the Russian revolutionaries of the late 19th century were all bourgeoisie too.

 

[Spartan Rex]

Originally Posted by devilof76

And I wish it hadn't come up in the first place. But it's not as though there was not ample reason to expect that this act of violence was not simply more of the same.

I can't blame anyone for assuming that - that is the hole Islam is in due to the acts of a few

My understanding is that two different islamic groups initially took credit for the attacks which added to the confusion.

 

[devilof76]

The founder of Ansar al-Islam was also indicted last month for death threats against Norweigan politicians.

 

[Spartan Rex]

The founder of Ansar al-Islam was also indicted last month for death threats against Norweigan politicians.

Wasnt that all part of that cartoon of Mohammed controversy?

 

[devilof76]

He called those cartoons a declaration of war.

“It does not matter if the governments of Norway and Denmark apologize, the war is on.”

https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/747

 

[intothevoid]

Appreciate your perspective Void.
Any thoughts on why it is so many of radical Islams leaders come from wealth and are fairly well educated?
i.e. Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri,Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Mohamed Atta for instance?
Who brain washed them?

I guess you really have to look at each of their personal circumstances and the events in their lives that shaped their view. I don't profess to be know enough about any of their backgrounds and upbringing to offer any real insight into that.

But in general:

Lack of education is a huge factor in making a lot of people susceptible to extremist brainwashing ideology, but there are as you point out, a disturbing amount of educated adults who fall into extremist thinking too, and seem to develop such views over a period of time. I guess some of the factors are
- disillusionment with the ruling class in their own countries of origin e.g. in Pakistan where there is rampant corruption among the ruling few, who support the US and then steal the aid money which is received. There is no social development and this may drive some to turn to extremist ideology where violence is the only way to make any impact (in their view).
- The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and on an ongoing basis the Kashmir and Palestenian question have all been ripe recruitment material for the Terrorists - even the educated can fall into the trap of seeing the attrocities and injustices in these places (with the huge amount of civilian casualties) and then somehow thinking they have to take up arms to right the wrongs, but of course two wrongs don't make a right.
- Guantanamo Bay - you have no idea how many horror stories I have heard of innocent people being picked up and shipped off to that hell hole never to be heard from again. Unfortunately, this has caused many perfectly educated people to turn wholly 'anti American' and to sympathize with extremist ideology.

 

[Spartan Rex]

- Guantanamo Bay - you have no idea how many horror stories I have heard of innocent people being picked up and shipped off to that hell hole never to be heard from again. Unfortunately, this has caused many perfectly educated people to turn wholly 'anti American' and to sympathize with extremist ideology.

So they completely over look the fact that the Guantanamo holding facility didnt exist before 9/11?
Actions begat reactions.

 

[intothevoid]

So they completely over look the fact that the Guantanamo holding facility didnt exist before 9/11?
Actions have reactions.

Of course actions have reactions, and the reactions have further reactions in turn - which in this case is the unintended consequence of creating more terrorists unfortunately.

Let's not get into the GB debate though because that could have a thread of its own

 

[devilof76]

One of the shortcomings of many educated people is that they are already devoutly anti-American and perpetually fishing for excuses. Those who aren't overtly are in principle, and it often takes only one sensationalized example to bring those subconsious bpremises to their logical conclusion.

 

[Spartan Rex]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actually got his degree in engineering here in the U.S.
I wonder if his time spent here reenforced what ever notions he had about this country to begin with or rather thats when it began.

 

[intothevoid]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actually got his degree in engineering here in the U.S.
I wonder if his time spent here reenforced what ever notions he had about this country to begin with or rather thats when it began.

You never know... I guess it could happen both ways. At some level I guess there must be some subconcious thought or idea that has been there for some time, and certain events unfold that serve to bring the idea to the fore so to speak.

 

[devilof76]

It's not a particularly long walk from the Russian and French revolutionaries to the American higher education establishment. The Europeans pioneered terrorism. They continued to teach the underlying ideology after WWII (I guess that wasn't explicit enough for them) and like Southeast Asia, South America and Africa, the lessons weren't lost on the Middle East. Academic nihilism in the U.S. was never more than a few steps behind the Continent.

 

[Spartan Rex]

It's not a particularly long walk from the Russian and French revolutionaries to the American higher education establishment. The Europeans pioneered terrorism. They continued to teach the underlying ideology after WWII (I guess that wasn't explicit enough for them) and like Southeast Asia, South America and Africa, the lessons weren't lost on the Middle East. Academic nihilism in the U.S. was never more than a few steps behind the Continent.

You think maybe Khalid came across a few self hating american profs while here?
That would be something if he was influenced more by U.S. academia elitists than some imam in a mosque.