Why hasn't Bale been praised for Batman role in TDK?

[aussieinnyc]

wasn't ledger at waapa (western australias performing arts) before setting off for sydney? i'm sure of it.

I can't find any reference for it, and he would have had to have started there REALLY young since he left school at 16 to head to Sydney. WAAPA is basically a performing arts university, so while he might have done some short courses there, I don't think he was ever a "real" student. Still, it doesn't matter - he was a phenomenal, risk-taking performer, and I was just being a pedantic ^^^^ by pointing out that, as far as I can tell, he wasn't a "trained" actor (in the traditional sense).

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

I can't find any reference for it, and he would have had to have started there REALLY young since he left school at 16 to head to Sydney. WAAPA is basically a performing arts university, so while he might have done some short courses there, I don't think he was ever a "real" student. Still, it doesn't matter - he was a phenomenal, risk-taking performer, and I was just being a pedantic ^^^^ by pointing out that, as far as I can tell, he wasn't a "trained" actor (in the traditional sense).

many other famous actors like himself were never really properly trained. they're just naturally gifted.

 

[Wolfguy]

The thing that made Ledger's Joker great were his mannerisms. He pretty much brought new characteristics to the character. The lip-smacking, lip overbite, the lip pouting, the voice, speaking with minimal lip movement like a ventriloquist...... the vocal performance...the overall cadence of his voice...those were all Heath.

True, he just read the lines but he really did innovate the character. In terms of personality and motives, his performace was straight out of the comics. But everything else was entirely original. A Joker we've never seen before. That's why Heath's Joker will remain as my favorite for a long time.

Heath's Joker is much more of a clown than the clown prince himself.

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

The thing that made Ledger's Joker great were his mannerisms. He pretty much brought new characteristics to the character. The lip-smacking, lip overbite, the lip pouting, the voice, speaking with minimal lip movement like a ventriloquist...... the vocal performance...the overall cadence of his voice...those were all Heath.

True, he just read the lines but he really did innovate the character. In terms of personality and motives, his performace was straight out of the comics. But everything else was entirely original. A Joker we've never seen before. That's why Heath's Joker will remain as my favorite for a long time.

Heath's Joker is much more of a clown than the clown prince himself.

ah and don't forget, he didn't even read the comics. nolan handed him a copy of "a killing joke"...i think it was that, anyway, ledger tried to read it, but couldn't finish it.

in other words, he had no influence.

 

[Nocturne]

He was also given a copy of Arkham Asylum

 

[70thSith]

If we'll look back, the Batman film portrayals have received more criticisms than the Joker portrayals. Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, George Clooney and Christian Bale UNFAIRLY got their share of criticisms in varying degrees while Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger never got any.

This is because Batman is more difficult to portray than the Joker. Bruce Wayne is silent, implosive and broods all day in his mansion. While the Joker is noisy, explosive (oops, is that a right word to say?) and ^^^^^es all day in the streets. Furthermore, the tools an actor needs to perform well, like his eyes and use of body language, is constrained to the actor in a batsuit. But with the Joker, the actor can do everything he wants. It's safe to say any good actor under the direction of a great filmmaker like Christopher Nolan, can pull off a great Joker performance.

Ledger did an excellent job but I really praise Christian Bale for his ACCURATE, subtle and effective performance. Like the saying goes "it's easy to be evil but hard to be good."

:emperor

 

[Wolf873]

If we'll look back, the Batman film portrayals have received more criticisms than the Joker portrayals. Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, George Clooney and Christian Bale UNFAIRLY got their share of criticisms in varying degrees while Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger never got any.

This is because Batman is more difficult to portray than the Joker. Bruce Wayne is silent, implosive and broods all day in his mansion. While the Joker is, well, noisy, explosive (oops, is that a right word to say?) and ^^^^^es all day in the streets. Furthermore, the tools an actor needs to perform well, like his eyes and use of body language, is constrained to the actor in a batsuit. But with the Joker, the actor can do everything he wants. It's safe to say any good actor under the direction of a great filmmaker like Christopher Nolan, can pull off a great Joker performance.

Ledger did an excellent job but I really praise Christian Bale for his ACCURATE, subtle and effective performance. Like the saying goes "it's easy to be evil but hard to be good."

:emperor

Nicely said.

 

[Arachne]

I really liked Bale as BOTH Bruce Wayne and Batman. He's an actor that has pulled off the duality perfectly. Been awhile since we've seen that with Batman. It was also nice to see that he used the Batman voice when he knocked out Harvey and told Rachael to stay hidden. Nice tip to the way Wayne acts when he gets into Batman mode.

I don't mind the raspy voice either. I think it fits with the real world that Nolan is using for the movie.

Also, whoever says that Bale/Batman wasn't in the movie that much must have fallen asleep. Both him and Ledger had about the same amount of screen time. You have the opening sequence bank robbery then you don't see the Joker again until the mob get together. Between that time it's all Bats and Wayne with some Harvey courtroom and Gordon meeting thrown in.

 

[cerebus23]

I do agree with you there, I'd say Kevin Conroy still has the definitive Batman voice. Is why I'm glad they've got Conroy and Hamil back to play Batman and the Joker in the Arkham Asylum game.

I do think it's combination of the two, to say Ledger just read the script is a bit unfair on him. After all Nolan's been very moving about his performance and things that he came up with on set. It's a blend of the two that came out very well, they both bring something to the role.

You don't spend a month locked on your own in a hotel room working out posture and voice if all you're going to do is read the script.

I love conroy's batman voice, imho the definitive batman voice, quiet menacing cutting brilliant, glad he is doing the game will definately have to pick that up.

Ledger's maniac take on the joker his ups and downs and extremes really worked well for the joker and one thing you got to give ledger is that he brings something unique to most roles he takes. He definately transformed himself for the role over and above anything he had done before, and made the joker his own character.

Compare it nicklson's joker where he played well himself or jack torrence playing the joker.

Bale is a good batman, but comparing keton's batman to his is a bit much. Bale is a young batman/bruce wayne, keton was a middle aged batman long lost in his monster so much that bruce wayne was a mere shadow. Lest if you took his batman that way which most people did, tho it does beg the question if keton's batman is a older batman why at the beginning of batman does he need to inform the thugs of who he is always bugged me.

I think the bale voice does work for this batman, after all "keeping it real" bruce would have to heavily mask his voice as batman. on top of that he was setting a tone as a mainic vigilante that will beat the hell out of criminals, or perhaps kill them or lest give that impression. so in the context of nolan's universe the heavily masked voice makes sense.

Now we could compare it to the older batman films where everyone kinda muttered or slightly changed their voice not all that much anyone with half a brain could tell if they met batman and bruce that their voices were similar in the older movies, so give bale some slack for the choice of the growly voice.

all that said still perfer the conroy take on batman/bruce. but if any actor copped that then they hardly would be original would they? and all the cries of how so n so stole the animated batman's voice etc.

and arkham asylum is a brilliant graphic novel i hope ledger read that one.

 

[Havok]

Bale definitely deserves recognition for his portrayal of Batman, but honestly Ledgers performance was just that good in my opinion, I think he just overshadowed everyone else.

 

[70thSith]

I really liked Bale as BOTH Bruce Wayne and Batman. He's an actor that has pulled off the duality perfectly. Been awhile since we've seen that with Batman. It was also nice to see that he used the Batman voice when he knocked out Harvey and told Rachael to stay hidden. Nice tip to the way Wayne acts when he gets into Batman mode.

I don't mind the raspy voice either. I think it fits with the real world that Nolan is using for the movie.

Also, whoever says that Bale/Batman wasn't in the movie that much must have fallen asleep. Both him and Ledger had about the same amount of screen time. You have the opening sequence bank robbery then you don't see the Joker again until the mob get together. Between that time it's all Bats and Wayne with some Harvey courtroom and Gordon meeting thrown in.

I forgot to mention that Bale had a double work load because of the Bruce Wayne/Batman dual role while Ledger only had one. Add to that the physicality of it being also an action hero role, learning Kempo, etc. -- there's so much to appreciate in Bale's work.

That's why I'm also bothered when people say that Bale/Batman "wasn't in" the movie. I guess they were referring to the Ledger/Joker scene-stealing thing. The audience are required to be more comprehensive, more understanding when watching a MYSTERIOUS, IN-THE-SHADOWS character like Batman who DOESN'T WHINE much about the bad things in his life. In contrast, the audience found it easier to comprehend a SHOWY, IN-YOUR-FACE character like the Joker WHO WHINES so much about the bad things in his life.

I hope this discussion doesn't turn into a Bale vs Ledger issue. Both equally did awards-worthy performances. I guess this should be more a Batman vs Joker characterization issue and the advantages and disadvantages that these roles present to the 2 great actors playing them.

And yes, the raspy voice was a nice touch...

 

[POWER1010]

Sure, a rubber Bat costume is going to look silly no matter what. But the 1989 and Begins suits had a classic comic book sensibility to them. The new suit was way too cluttered, overdone, and looks like it was over-designed just to push more toys; plus, the chipmunk cheeks made Bale look funny and even cute (!) in certain scenes. The cowl and voice pretty much made the interrogation scene that much more funny, though Ledger saved it.
Thankfully, the movie was so dark most of the time, I could ignore it.

This is hands down THE DUMBEST thing I have ever read on this entire site!!!

 

[Dr.Mirakle32]

This is hands down THE DUMBEST thing I have ever read on this entire site!!!

Even though a grown man in a a puffy-faced, rubber Bat costume beating the crap out of a clown in a gritty, "realistic" interrogation scene, isn't?

It works in the context of the movie, but I still find the scene ridiculous.

 

[Wolf873]

I agree, Christian Bale is being overly ignored on his performance, it's Heath/Joker this and that. I can understand part of it might be because of his (Mr. Ledger's) untimely demise and that Joker was his last character which he pulled off surprisingly well. But still, focus of the movie was Batman/Bruce.

Mr. Bale, though nothing ground breaking as the Joker, but he still portrayed a better Batman than Mr. Kilmer and Clooney. Also, he portrayed a better Bruce Wayne than Mr. Keaton if I might add, but Keaton performed Batman very well and made up for it, imo. As someone already said, Joker is the type one can freely try to portray if given the right direction under a competent director, Nolan certainly is. But Batman/Bruce is hard to pull off. As far as I have seen, Mr. Bale has always been a terrific actor e.g. American Psycho, Equilibrium, Prestige, 3:10 to Yuma, and now Batman. He does his characters really well and I think deserves some recognition. He's part of the reason I like the new Batman movies, because he's doing heck of a good job. That voice he does, which some find weird or so, is understandable because it's always been my gripe about super-heroes that no one can recognize them with their voices, at least with Batman the reason is there.

 

[Nocturne]

I forgot to mention that Bale had a double work load because of the Bruce Wayne/Batman dual role while Ledger only had one. Add to that the physicality of it being also an action hero role, learning Kempo, etc. -- there's so much to appreciate in Bale's work.

If you think about it Bale actually plays 3 characters
1)Bruce Wayne in Private. Scenes with Alfred and Rachel
2)Bruce Wayne in public, the swaggering playboy facade such as when he gives his speech at Harvey's benefit.
3)Batman

All distinctly different personalities. Probably the best example is after he's given the speech about Harvey with a slight sense of mocking bravado and then goes out onto the balcony and throws his drink away almost in a sense of despair and then talks to Rachel. There's two very different characters there.

All the concentration goes onto his portrayal of Batman at the expense of how he plays Bruce Wayne. Batman can't exist without Bruce Wayne no matter how cool it is to say it's the dominant personality because it's Bruce's sense of rage and injustice that drives Batman. Without Bruce the Bat has no motivation.

Have always loved the scenes with just Bruce and Alfred, Bale and Caine have a wonderful on screen chemistry.

 

[Wolf873]

If you think about it Bale actually plays 3 characters
1)Bruce Wayne in Private. Scenes with Alfred and Rachel
2)Bruce Wayne in public, the swaggering playboy facade such as when he gives his speech at Harvey's benefit.
3)Batman

All distinctly different personalities. Probably the best example is after he's given the speech about Harvey with a slight sense of mocking bravado and then goes out onto the balcony and throws his drink away almost in a sense of despair and then talks to Rachel. There's two very different characters there.

All the concentration goes onto his portrayal of Batman at the expense of how he plays Bruce Wayne. Batman can't exist without Bruce Wayne no matter how cool it is to say it's the dominant personality because it's Bruce's sense of rage and injustice that drives Batman. Without Bruce the Bat has no motivation.

Have always loved the scenes with just Bruce and Alfred, Bale and Caine have a wonderful on screen chemistry.

Yeah I love those scenes too, they're always interesting.

Just on the side note, I think Gary Oldman also portrayed the best Gordon. In previous movies he was rather useless, but in these new adaptations he's 10x better imo.

 

[Nocturne]

Agreed, he didn't really get to do anything, the way Schumacher had him act in Batman & Robin was such a waste of a great character and a great actor (R.I.P. Pat Hingle)

I think the best description I read of how he was treated in B&R was from The Agony Booth's Recap
"Gordon suddenly turns into a pathetic, feeble old man who's about ten seconds away from crapping his pants. He moans, "No, I'm not... Please... Come back..." I can't even put into words how completely unnecessary this part was. Can you imagine what they said to Pat Hingle before filming this? "Yeah, sorry, Mr. Hingle, but right now we can only afford to give a non-humiliating role to one veteran actor who's endured all four of these movies. But don't worry, because in the next movie you get to have a really dramatic scene with King Tut!"

But lets face it though Gary Oldman is fantastic in whatever he's in

 

[DiFabio]

Wait a second. You guys seem to be missing it.

Isn't the Joker supposed to outshine Batman, isn't that the point of the character? I don't care if it's the 66' film, the 89' film, BTAS, TDK or the graphic novels, The Joker always steals the spotlight. Batman operates during the night and has to hide his alter ego, the Joker does not. Ledger was great in the role but there is no denying that every Joker becomes the focus in every medium. Hell Ledgers role was hyped before he died, before the trailers even. It may have been negative attention but it was publicity none the less. The Joker is always bigger than life, that's what the character is. Everyone loves him.

 

[Riko]

I forgot to mention that Bale had a double work load because of the Bruce Wayne/Batman dual role while Ledger only had one. Add to that the physicality of it being also an action hero role, learning Kempo, etc. -- there's so much to appreciate in Bale's work.

That's why I'm also bothered when people say that Bale/Batman "wasn't in" the movie. I guess they were referring to the Ledger/Joker scene-stealing thing. The audience are required to be more comprehensive, more understanding when watching a MYSTERIOUS, IN-THE-SHADOWS character like Batman who DOESN'T WHINE much about the bad things in his life. In contrast, the audience found it easier to comprehend a SHOWY, IN-YOUR-FACE character like the Joker WHO WHINES so much about the bad things in his life.

I hope this discussion doesn't turn into a Bale vs Ledger issue. Both equally did awards-worthy performances. I guess this should be more a Batman vs Joker characterization issue and the advantages and disadvantages that these roles present to the 2 great actors playing them.

And yes, the raspy voice was a nice touch...

this is the pure definition of exageration.
Bale was good, but not that good we should speak about overlooking a masterpiece performance. He was just very solid, so don't overdo it...

 

[Mesa]

because it not that hard to talk in a raspy voice... plus there's no emotion hiding behind the mask... and he's kind of a stale (all his rolls are the same) actor anyway.

Do I like him as the Bat?? Hell Yeah! I think he's the best.. but the character it's self doesn't give way to acting.

well said. I almost thought he overdid the role with the raspy voice, felt a little awkward. No where near the performance of Ledger. Was Bale acceptable, Yes. Does he deserve praise, No.


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