Redman - The Cowboy G

[jstep13]

The problem I see with both sides of this argument is simple: both sides are wrong. It's pretty arrogant and hypocritical for iminnme and other customizers to get all cheesed off about someone stealing their work, when they themselves are breaking the law by making over-priced unlicensed figures in the first place. And the recasters are wrong for not at least compensating the original artist. So, both parties only have each other to blame for whatever the outcome may be.

This times a thousand. I have zero sympathy for these artists if they whine and complain about others "stealing" their work. When the artists start mailing proceeds of their profit to the studio, producers, actors etc etc, then we can talk.

Until then, pot meet kettle.

 

[Star Puffs]

People on their high horse about others "breaking the law" do not really understand the law. These are matters of civil law, copyright enforcement, which are incumbent upon the licence holder to enforce, not the state/Crown. In the case of many of these properties, it would be hard to even show damages if they have never been licensed and you would at most win a permanent injunction. No one is going to spend $5-15,000 in legal fees to do that. That's why not one of these unlicensed figures has ever gone past a cease-and-desist letter.

 

[HAL9000.]

People on their high horse about others "breaking the law" do not really understand the law. These are matters of civil law, copyright enforcement, which are incumbent upon the licence holder to enforce, not the state/Crown. In the case of many of these properties, it would be hard to even show damages if they have never been licensed and you would at most win a permanent injunction. No one is going to spend $5-15,000 in legal fees to do that. That's why not one of these unlicensed figures has ever gone past a cease-and-desist letter.

You've missed the point. Most people aren't moaning about whether copyright holders would pursue legally, whether they'd win or not, they're simply pointing out what's right and wrong. You're correct - most copyright holders wouldn't bother because the figures are produced in such small numbers and hard to stop, but it's a matter of principle. Clearly you know something about copyright law etc, so you should also understand that. It's not just about money, it's about protecting your property. It's principles. So, to say people are on their "high horses" is a bit unfair. They're allowed an opinion.

 

[Ebeneezer Jones]

I picked up blondie today and while I get peeps being upset because its a recast, if you were to put the sculpt aside, the rest of the set in itself is still amazing. I think its ridiculous to say its crap and think its just peeps being partisan and supporting DK and protecting their investment. I know that if i paid $1000 for a fig and have an almost identical fig come out a few years later for 1/10 the price, would upset me also.

Iminime's Cowboy was $420 when it first came out, not $1000, so the Redman is 1/3 of the price and not 1/10.

Personally i'd rather have the best versions of all the stuff i like, and that is definitely Iminime's in this case, but recasting being right or wrong, you can see why it is never going away and why people will always buy these figures.

A suggestion i had was to go to the same factories these people go to, and do exactly the same thing that they are doing.

 

[toyplayer]

In my opinion if you steal someone elses work to recast it and if your happy with supporting that,go ahead. I won't! Why can't Redman find a good artist to do their head sculpts etc... They make so many that with a talented artist they wouldn't have to recast. I myself am just learning about this as well and am happy to know what i buy is the real deal. I feel for the artists out there who put such hard work into their pieces just to get recast. I also see the point about having a passion for a figure and not being able to afford the high end figures. It's a debate that seems like it can go back and forth,but what is right is right and stealing another artists work for your companies greed is something i will never support.

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[shells075]

Unfortunately the only way you would of kept the Blondie sculpt for example out of the re-casters hands in not release it in the first place, obviously the knock on effect is the highly skilled artists like Trevor gets disillusioned and stop producing outstanding sculpts.

Iminime big selling point is sculpt quality and limited run. If we lose Iminime we lose one of the best companies in 1/6 so try and avoid the knock offs is my advice.

 

[hamtata]

Hi all,
What ever fits my pocket, I buy. Why spending 300$ for a HS while the other guy sells it for 30$. Quality? Well, if the HS is good for my taste, I will buy it. I'm not such person who supports artists by throwing out 300$ for a HS. Who ever wants to do it, I'm not against them. It's personal choice.

 

[shells075]

Hi all,
What ever fits my pocket, I buy. Why spending 300$ for a HS while the other guy sells it for 30$. Quality? Well, if the HS is good for my taste, I will buy it. I'm not such person who supports artists by throwing out 300$ for a HS. Who ever wants to do it, I'm not against them. It's personal choice.

 

[Rydeck]

Unfortunately the only way you would of kept the Blondie sculpt for example out of the re-casters hands in not release it in the first place, obviously the knock on effect is the highly skilled artists like Trevor gets disillusioned and stop producing outstanding sculpts.

Iminime big selling point is sculpt quality and limited run. If we lose Iminime we lose one of the best companies in 1/6 so try and avoid the knock offs is my advice.

This, I think, is the main problem. I make no personal judgment on people who buy knock-offs. Buy whatever you want to buy if that suits you and your finances. However, the loss of skilled artists from the community is consequential. When someone like Trevor stops producing sculpts, both the collectors who directly support him and the collectors who buy from the secondary recasting market who either don't care or don't know about Trevor are impacted. If there's no original, there can be no knock-off. You can argue about whether the artists have the moral high ground with respect to licensing, but if a particular artist says that recasting is why he/she left, then recasting is a problem that all collectors suffer from. And I'd guess that recasting is one of the reasons many sculptors quit. Buying recasts is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, there may be more up-and-comers who will fill the void when someone leaves, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

On a related note, I don't think the licensing argument carries too much weight. I believe that one of the reasons Iminime doesn't go gangbusters churning out figures is because mass production could arguably result in harm to the owner of the intellectual property rights. A small run of figures is less likely to draw notice or may be tacitly acknowledged and allowed because 50 or so custom figures isn't going to monetarily damage the IP owner or the IP owner's image. From this perspective, who's running more afoul of licensing? The small-run custom maker or the mass production recaster?

 

[Gruff Old Bear]

To hone in on a narrower point...Redman claims ownership of the designs of their figures. Their promotional photos and packaging all say that they are designed by Redman. Redman's "design" consists of copying something someone else did. That's their business model.

What I see in a depressing number of posts here is a real disregard for sculptors and sculpting. It approaches contempt. No great loss? Some other sculptor will come along? Really.

 

[**16k**]

Something tells me this thread should be closed.

It's not the first time we're having this sort of conversation on this board. My experience is since we can't reconcile different opinion, this usually ends badly.

Better close that down.. No good will come out of it!

 

[greatlakes6]

For those who argue that the knockoff and the original are basically the same quality, they clearly have not held both in hand. The original/Iminime, is far superior in quality, both sculpt and clothing. The paint is also far superior. Whether you want to spend less, have a similar representation of a figure, and convince yourself it is the same, your choice. It's like those who create a clone car that gives the illusion of being the same, but of course it isn't even close.

As far as producing many more pieces and keeping the cost down on an original, both Yunsil and Iris are not set up to do a run of 500 or more sets of clothing. The quality would definitely suffer and they have other projects lined up waiting to be done.

My bigger issue which has been mentioned a few times is that the producers of the original product pay a very talented sculptor to provide them with a high quality sculpt. Then another company comes along and sees that they can make some money off of someone else's work and they copy it, sell it as their own. Create your own!

There are many points of view mentioned in this thread, none are right and none are wrong. All should be respected.

 

[Rainpaulo]

I wonder how many people on here bitching about recasts have copied a music CD or have wathched a movie from a downloaded source...I would think most of you...things get copied ...that life.

 

[EVILFACE]

And yet nobody sheds a tear when fully licensed Hot Toys sculpts are routinely recast.

Recasting Hot Toys bodies is the greatest thing to ever happen in this hobby.

Does Iminime make their own body or use recasted Hot Toys?

 

[superado]

The problem I see with both sides of this argument is simple: both sides are wrong. It's pretty arrogant and hypocritical for iminnme and other customizers to get all cheesed off about someone stealing their work, when they themselves are breaking the law by making over-priced unlicensed figures in the first place. And the recasters are wrong for not at least compensating the original artist. So, both parties only have each other to blame for whatever the outcome may be.

Quite honestly and ignorantly, I didn't really consider that side of the coin, that all of these figures are unlicensed by the property owners. I guess I adopted my anti-recasting stance from the garage kit crowd, without stopping to think about the ethics that most garage kit subject matter are also from unlicensed property. It's a case of seeing intellectual property infringement done en-masse, unabated, while taking in the mantra from that same community, "do not support recasts." The commercial aspect of our hobby supports this action on many levels, with the clever "wink wink" monikers given to familiar headsculpts, with the purpose of tapping into the conceptual dimension of the piece for commercial gain...kind of a circumvention of the spirit of copyright laws. It certainly lessens my sympathy for these artists who get ripped off by recastings but those who turn small profits in exchange for quantity seem to be the ones getting away with it.

 

[HAL9000.]

Something tells me this thread should be closed.

It's not the first time we're having this sort of conversation on this board. My experience is since we can't reconcile different opinion, this usually ends badly.

Better close that down.. No good will come out of it!

The thing is - there's valid arguments for both sides. It's not clear cut. It's a never-ending circle of arguments and none of us want more artists pushed out of the hobby.

Time to unsubscribe form this out-of-control thread

 

[Stevejack2]

Funnily enough, this was the figure that sparked my interest in custom figures.

I saw it online back when I had no idea of the custom community, recasts, anything. I bought the Redman figure along with a few other things and then started researching, which eventually led me to SSF.

Now all I'm interested in is customs. As sad as it is now knowing the story behind it, this one figure has sparked an interest which will probably circulate many thousands of dollars through to customisers going forward. But maybe that's a rare case.

 

[siquisiri]

Iminime's Cowboy was $420 when it first came out, not $1000, so the Redman is 1/3 of the price and not 1/10.

Personally i'd rather have the best versions of all the stuff i like, and that is definitely Iminime's in this case, but recasting being right or wrong, you can see why it is never going away and why people will always buy these figures.

A suggestion i had was to go to the same factories these people go to, and do exactly the same thing that they are doing.

The example i gave was to show what the original is worth now.

 

[siquisiri]

In my opinion if you steal someone elses work to recast it and if your happy with supporting that,go ahead. I won't! Why can't Redman find a good artist to do their head sculpts etc... They make so many that with a talented artist they wouldn't have to recast. I myself am just learning about this as well and am happy to know what i buy is the real deal. I feel for the artists out there who put such hard work into their pieces just to get recast. I also see the point about having a passion for a figure and not being able to afford the high end figures. It's a debate that seems like it can go back and forth,but what is right is right and stealing another artists work for your companies greed is something i will never support.


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THIS i agree with. Had hey had their own original sculpt, peeps wouldnt be taking sides..

 

[**16k**]

Well, to their defense, the recanted heads were widely available long before Redman even started that project. Maybe they just decided to go the easy way. Take their Jose Wales. That's an original sculpt.