Question for Tolkien/LOTR nerds... erm i mean experts about arwen & aragorn

[noelleon69]

Story goes like this, ROTK was just screen on TV where i'm from and some guy from another forum that i visit was asking: "there is a part where they showed Arwen alone after King Aragon has died and Arwen will live forever and ever in loneliness. Is that really what happened in the end?"

So i replied with my best knowledge: "aragorn is only mortal so yes he will one day die first. arwen also dies later because her loved one has passed and found loneliness too hard to bear. she does not live forever because when she married aragorn she is no longer immortal."

Am i correct? And then another guy challenges me by saying: "Then why does Elrond initially objected Arwen from seeing Aragon? He didnt want Arwen to live alone when Aragon dies (thru passage of time or by the sword).... That means Arwen will still be immortal even when she marries Aragon..."

So what is the best way to reply regarding why elrond does not prefer arwen to marry aragorn and also about arwen's mortality etc...

 

[Darth Loki]

Because she gives up the opportunity to go to the Gray Havens with the rest of the elves, and her father. She remains in Middle-Earth and becomes mortal. She still lives a couple hundred years longer than Aragorn, but she eventually goes to Lothlorien (I think) and dies there.

 

[carbo-fation]

Loki is correct! Arwen gave up her immortality after wedding Aragorn and after he passed away, she moved to Lorien and that was the last anyone had heard of her ever again. She was the only Elf besides Luthien to have given up her immortality. Since she did give up her immortality, Arwen would have to die eventually. But Tolkien never mentions it in any of his books. I hope this helps?

 

[thamesvalidude]

It's in the appendices to Lord of the Rings:
In Lorien.....
"There at last when the Mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the sea.

Guess I'm a nred.............cool one though!

 

[Wetanut]

"Then why does Elrond initially objected Arwen from seeing Aragon? He didnt want Arwen to live alone when Aragon dies (thru passage of time or by the sword).... That means Arwen will still be immortal even when she marries Aragon..."

The logic of the first part doesn't lead to the conclusion of the second part. What Loki and others said earlier is correct. Elrond initially objected to the Arwen and Aragorn relationship because he knew that, in order to stay together, Arwen would also give up her immortality. He had no problems with Aragorn per se -- just the mortality issue. He foretold what would happen to her should she continue with Aragorn. Yes, after Aragorn dies, Arwen chooses to go off to the by then-deserted woods of Lothlorien and lays down and dies alone. In the movie, this was done via flash forward. In the books, A&A's love story is told in the appendixes.

BTW -- not all elves had the ability to choose like Arwen did. Only those who are decended of Elrond can. The reason is that Elrond is decended from both elf and mortal (his great grandparents were Beren and Luthien and both his parents are of mixed lineage themselves). His twin brother, Elros, chose to become mortal (and was the long-distant ancestor of Aragorn); Elrond chose to remain elf (he is referred quite often in the books as Elrond Halfelven). Arwen had the same opportunity and broke her father's heart.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Not all elves had the ability to choose in the same way as they, but any elf would become mortal upon marrying one. Arwen was the third and last elf to do so.

 

[nash]

poor elfs

 

[pixletwin]

Also I dont think Elrond's vision of Arwen's lonely future were in the books anywhere... If I were to take either the books or the movies as canon, it is definately the books I'd go with (the opposite of Star Wars ).

 

[Wetanut]

In Appendix A in the books

 

[Darth Caedus]

Encyclopedia or Arda is your friend....https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ Just go here and geek out...

 

[Radagaster]

Ok, I think I'm setting the record straight here. Elves only die one of 2 ways: getting killed, or grief. They do not grow old or die of disease. Thus said, when an elf gives up going to the Grey Havens, and spend their time with mortals, that only means grief can come of it. Arwen chose to stay with Aragorn, which meant she most certainly will die of grief. In LOTR appendices, Tolkien alludes to the fact that she wandered the lands in grief until she finally lay herself by the location where she is, among the niphredils. It's not as if elves magically become mortal. Mortal means you in addition die of old age or disease.

 

[CAhobbit]

And further more...the grey havens are just a launch point to the undying lands (Valinor). IIRC by Arwen choosing mortality also means that she would not ever see most of her kin again (even after death).

 

[Beren]

poor elfs

The plural of a Tolkien-elf is "elves".

Having read almost the entire History of Middle-Earth series (I'm on the 12th and last book), I can say that it was not exclusively Elrond's line that could choose to wed a mortal and thus become mortal themselves. It is true that Elrond and his brother Elros were the only ones allowed to choose to live as elf or man, but this had nothing to do with bonding to anyone. It happened three times in the history of the elves, that a female elf bonded with a mortal man (interesting that no elf dudes gave up their immortality for a mortal chick )

Beren and Luthien
Tuor and Idril
Turin and Finduilas came close...
Aragorn and Arwen

I haven't read the appendices in a while so I'll believe the quote posted here about it. But Tolkien wrote in one of his many unpublished drafts about the elves who remained in Middle-Earth as "fading". To the point where they pretty much (not expressed in this form) would roam as ghosts, neither to be seen or heard.

Oh one more thing: technically, elves are not truly "immortal". They did age, albeit at a really slow pace and they were bound with the fate of Middle-Earth. Their life span was limited to the life span of Middle-Earth which had a finite time (but yeah, for us mere mortals that would seem like a REALLY LONG time )

Geeked out...

Beren

 

[Corwin]

Not all elves had the ability to choose in the same way as they, but any elf would become mortal upon marrying one. Arwen was the third and last elf to do so.

Arwen did not become Mortal but she chose to share the fate of Mortals.



She never aged after marrying Aragorn (clearly implied in the books) and therefore was not Mortal.

When Aragorn died she left Gondor and went to Lorien where she died the following winter (not 200 years later as said by Darth Loki above).

However as she was still Immortal she could have wandered Middle Earth for thousands of years as Elronds (film) vision fortold if she had wanted to.

What she did do was choose to share the "Doom of Men"

Elves are bound to Arda (the World) even when they die they are just reborn in the Undying lands and can possibly even return from there to Middle Earth (depends if there was one or two Glorfindels).

When Men die they pass outside the World to somewhere the Elves know nothing about.

What Arwen did when she chose to marry Aragorn was give up her chance to ever go to the Undying Lands (not the Grey Havens, that's where you leave from) either by Ship or by Death and Rebirth.

She choose to die as a Mortal and thus she would have passed beyond the world to whatever fate awaits Men there.

 

[CAhobbit]

And if I'm remembering the small history I know of Middle Earth before mortals go off to this 'unknown place', that Tolkien never writes about, they first pass through the Hall of Mandos (which incidently lies in the undying lands). It's kind of a waiting area to the great 'beyond' of sorts.

 

[noelleon69]

ok... so arwen didn't really become a mortal. what it means by giving up immortality as an elf, is that they give up the choice of ever going to grey havens let alone the undying lands?

so when she married aragorn, she still age like an elf, very slowly and she had the choice of choosing when to die/pass away. which she choose to do so the following winter after aragorn's death.

i was confused before about her being a mortal after marrying aragorn. because if she was a mortal. why did she not age much physically and could live so long, outlive aragorn even.

 

[The Mike]

Wow this topic is really interesting...there are a few contradictions though and disagreements between forum members....anyone have the facts ironed out yet?

 

[Darth Caedus]

Well, elves can't die, they can only be reborn. Ilúvatar's gift to men was the gift of death. Elves can't understand nor find out what this is like, some elves tolkien has written have become jealous about this strange, mysterious gift of men. The reason Arwen can choose between an elven and a human life is that her Great Grandparents were one elf and one man. Ever since, Ilúvatar granted that line the choice to become human of elfkind. Arwen's father, Elrond choose elfkind, while Arwen's uncle Elros, choose a human life. Elros was the first in the line of the Great Kings of Numenor. (granting long life, which is why Aragorn appeared 30 when he was really around 80 years old). So technically Arwen and Aragorn are related (how Lucasish of Tolkien). If an elf was the "die" in middle-earth, their spirit would awaken in the halls of mandos (one of the Valar [Gods]) and live their life on Valinor (heaven), but they couldn't come back. One elf in particular was present both in The Silmarillion, die there, and then was mentioned in LoTR; and that was Glorfindel. Anyway, back to Arwen and Aragorn. Arwen choose a mortal life, the first of her kind to do so since Luthien did it, to live out with Aragorn in the reunited Kingdom. During that time, they had a child named Eldarion and a couple of unnamed children. When it was time for Aragorn to die (he was 210 years old). When this happened she passed into the land of Lorien to die within the trees.

This is just the tip of the surface for Tolkien lore. I know it's long, but I hope this helps.

 

[pixletwin]

I thought Arwen's mother died in child birth?

 

[Darth Caedus]

I thought Arwen's mother died in child birth?

Arwen's mother was Celebrían, the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. She was attacked in the Misty Mountains and she was rescued by her sons Elladan and Elrohir, but took ship into the West soon after.

You're thinking of Fëanor, whose mother Míriel Serindë died in childbirth. The birth of her mighty son, Fëanor, took so much of her spirit that she went to the gardens of Lórien and passed away.