Question for Tolkien/LOTR nerds... erm i mean experts about arwen & aragorn

[CAhobbit]

Well, and we have to remember that not even Tolkien ironed everything out.

Who is Tom Bombadil anyway? And what about those Balrog wings?

 

[Darth Rage]

You are certainly right! Due to the nature of many of these tales being unfinished, even Tolkien contrasdicts himself on more than one occaision.
However, back to the original issue, I think if you read the appendicix A section V "Here follows a part of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen" the answers you seek are fairly clear.

Elrond did not wish Aragorn to wed Arwen for two reasons. The first is that the doom of men was still prevalent, and Elrond saw that Aragorn had long trials ahead of him. Arwen was considered the fairest elf at that time, and was of a noble house and far outclassed and was of a much higher station than young Aragorn. Elrond felt his daughter was too good for him, and that Aragorn had to prove himself. There was also the matter of age. Though appearing young, Arwen was far older, wiser and more experianced than young Aragorn.

The other issue lies in the lay of Luthien. As someone has already posted previously, Elrond feared if his daughter wed Aragorn, she would forsake her elven lineage, and remain in middle earth with Aragorn. Elrond of course wished for his daughter to accompany him and her people to the Grey Havens where they would sail to the undying lands.

Hope that helps!

 

[Wetanut]

As you can tell, Noel, there just isn't a simple one word or phrase or even sentence answer to this. One thing leads to another...then that leads to 2 or 3 more, and so on. Much of what's been said is true, but also remember (and mentioned) that the Professor himself was very ambiguous in many plot and character points. Especially when it came down to describing subsequent fate of the LOTR heros/heroines after Sauron was defeated. So much of it is open to interpretation. Tolkien's tales are so crammed full of layers upon layers of richness, no wonder we Tolkien lovers geek out?

 

[noelleon69]

lol... indeed this isn't something which can be described simply after hearing all the input Rumi.

at least i think i now know something which i thought was another. that is i thought arwen became mortal because she married a human. so i thought all elves who marries a human will automatically become a mortal. after hearing the comments, i learnt that arwen became mortal because she chose to as she has that option due to her ancestry and in turn giving up the chance to go to the grey havens.

the reasons why she did this is because she wanted the choice of ending her life one day when aragorn dies eventually and she rather do that than going to the grey havens when aragorn dies? and the thing about both aragorn and arwen, they don't die of old age like normal men although they are mortals, they die when they decide they do not want to live anymore correct? some sort of privilege given to them by the gods?

 

[CAhobbit]

the reasons why she did this is because she wanted the choice of ending her life one day when aragorn dies eventually and she rather do that than going to the grey havens when aragorn dies? and the thing about both aragorn and arwen, they don't die of old age like normal men although they are mortals, they die when they decide they do not want to live anymore correct? some sort of privilege given to them by the gods?

Aragorn is mortal (though he has elvish blood running through him) so he does live a very long life due to his heritage. Aragorn, however, cannot choose when he wishes to die he simply dies of old age.

Arwen chooses a mortal life and by doing so cuts the tie that binds her to Arda. She has chosen the fate of mortals (upon death she will pass through the halls of mandos and then go to another place that we know nothing about) and will not find herself reborn in Valinor (the Undying Lands) and reunited with her kin. We don't really know what happened to Arwen after Aragorn's death (little is written) but it is assumed that she did die. Elves can only die by two means (to be killed or grief). So Arwen more than likely died of grief after her beloved's death.

Oh the grey haven's are just a launching point to the Undying Lands. Choosing to go or not go to the grey havens has no relation to choosing a mortal or non-mortal life (so to speak).

 

[Nazgurl]

Hmmm. I don't have any of my books handy (I'm at work) but I seem to remember that the Numenorean Kings and their descendants did indeed have the gift of being able to simply lie down and die when they felt that they had lived long enough, and that that was what Aragorn (by then, of course, called Ellesar) did. It was why Arwen said something to the effect of "will you leave your people now."

I'm sure someone can come up with the relevant passages.

Or it could simply be old age causing me to misremember.

 

[DonnamiraTook]

An interesting (I hope) aside in this topic comes up in the new book "Peter Jackson - A Film-maker's Journey." One of the problems involved in writing the script was that of Aragorn and Arwen. Quoting from the book:

We were feeling very vulnerable because there was a big unknown about how much or how little you had to do with Arwen. We were going into three movies that didn't have a really strong female role or a significant romantic theme until Eowyn appears -- which is not until the second film.

We weren't sure whether we had to push Arwen into a stronger role or whether we could get away with her being as relatively minor as she is in the books and therefore not have a love story. That set us wondering about whether or not the films might then be seen as a male-driven story with no appeal to female moviegoers. The alternative approach was also anxious-making, because anything we did with Arwen's character would have to be a departure from what Tolkien wrote. It was a thorny situation and one about which we were very uncertain what to do..."

Well we now know how that was resolved.

Very good book, by the way.

 

[tomandshell]

From "The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth":

ARWEN:

She bore her husband one son and a number of daughters. However, by marrying Aragorn she chose not to accompany her father over the Sea at the end of the Third Age, and thus became mortal. After Aragorn died in FO 120, Arwen went to Lorien, where she died the next winter. Her grave was made on Cerin Amroth.

ELVES:

Although they could be slain or die of grief, Elves were not subject to age or disease. An Elf who lost his life went to the halls of Mandos, whence he could go elsewhere in Valinor but not return to Middle-earth. The fate of the Elves is bound to Ea, and they cannot leave the Circles of the World until the End, when they will join with the Ainur (and perhaps Men) in the Second Music before the throne of Iluvatar.

PEREDHIL:

Elros and Elrond, the two children of Earendil and Elwing. They were called the Peredhil because of their extremely mixed Adan (human) and Eldarin (elven) blood. At the end of the First Age, the Peredhil were given the choice of which race they wished to belong to. Elros chose to remain with the Edain, and he was given by the Valar a life-span many times that of lesser Men. Elrond became an Elven-lord of great power and wisdom. Elrond's children were also given the choice of which kindred they wished to belong to; the choice was to be made when Elrond left Middle-earth. All three of his children chose mortality.

 

[Darth Rage]

Hmmm. I don't have any of my books handy (I'm at work) but I seem to remember that the Numenorean Kings and their descendants did indeed have the gift of being able to simply lie down and die when they felt that they had lived long enough, and that that was what Aragorn (by then, of course, called Ellesar) did. It was why Arwen said something to the effect of "will you leave your people now."

I'm sure someone can come up with the relevant passages.

You are absolutely correct. Aragorn gave up his mantle as King to his son. Arwen accompanied him and he layed down and went to sleep (died). He chose to die before he became a withered old man. It is then that Arwen went back to Lothlorien and was "not heard from again." This is in the appendices tale of Arwen and Aragorn.

On a side note, it was all the children of Elrond (not just Arwen) that had the choice to take a ship from the grey havens to the undying lands. That choice had to be made before or at the time Elrond left middle earth. Any of Elronds children who remained in middle earth after he left would age and die as mortals do.

 

[tomandshell]

Elladan and Elrohir were not on the boat with Elrond, Galadriel, Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf at the end of ROTK, so apparently they chose to remain in Middle-earth as mortals.

 

[Kookie]

I've known about the Encyclopedia of Arda but I've recently just started diving deeper into it's knowledge.

What's really cool is that I didn't realize there was an almost 17 year gap between the time Gandalf left the Shire to discover the origin of the ring Frodo got from Bilbo, until the time he returned to tell Frodo he had to leave the Shire.

Also...I wanted to see the history that may be included in "what happens between The Hobbit & LOTR's " and there is some really cool stuff that I'd love to see on film. Here are a couple things:

Expulsion of the Necromancer
Sauron's retreat to Mordor
Nazgul claiming Dol Guldur
Aragorn meeting Arwen
Council of the White
Aragorn assisting Thengal in battle
Birth of Frodo, Boromir, Faramir, Merry, Pippin, Sam, Theoden
Adoption of Frodo by Bilbo
Saruman betrayl and the taking over of Orthanc
Grima taking control of Theoden's mind
Saruman growing his forces of orcs and wolves.

I can imagine a few epic battles based on some of this stuff. I'm even more excited over the prospect of The Hobbit and a movie including the stuff above. Now we just need New Line to get their act in gear and work things out with PJ

 

[tomandshell]

Remember than in movie continuity, Saruman hadn't openly turned yet at the beginning of FOTR. We saw him declare his loyalty and begin to rip up Orthanc and build an army in FOTR, so they are not going to show that again in a prequel. A prequel can show what led up to his defection, but the explicit betrayal and move to build an army happens in FOTR.

I would really love to see him in White Council scenes knowing what we know about his future.

 

[Kookie]

Thanks Tom...what I should have said was how Saruman was doing his own research on the ring and was starting to device a plan for taking the ring for himself. One of the steps included trying to take contol of Rohan using Grima. I think during the Orthanc scenes in FOTR Saruman realized Sauron was too powerful to try and do things himself and joined Sauron.

I should have also said Saruman took up residence at Orthanc...not really taking control and ripping it up

 

[Darth Rage]

Elladan and Elrohir were not on the boat with Elrond, Galadriel, Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf at the end of ROTK, so apparently they chose to remain in Middle-earth as mortals.

You are correct. There are mentions of them visiting Aragorn and Arwen in the Fourth age, but nothing is known of their final fate.

 

[tomandshell]

I think that Saruman would be possibly the most interesting character to watch develop in the potential prequel.

 

[The Josh]

I think that Saruman would be possibly the most interesting character to watch develop in the potential prequel.

I agree. I would love to see as you said what went one behind the scenes during the White Council meetings. Knowing what we know just makes it a very interesting thought of what we might see.

The history of ME is just truly fascinating IMO. I love still setting down and reading sites like Arada and the books I have. I feel like I learn something new everytime I sit down.

 

[Darth Caedus]

I agree. I would love to see as you said what went one behind the scenes during the White Council meetings. Knowing what we know just makes it a very interesting thought of what we might see.

The history of ME is just truly fascinating IMO. I love still setting down and reading sites like Arada and the books I have. I feel like I learn something new everytime I sit down.

I feel the same way about ME. To me, Beleriand and the Fall of Beleriand is more interesting, but that's a personal choice. While Saruman is a very interesting character to see in development, seeing him research the ring lore and actually creating his own ring and succumbing to sauron through the palantir of feanor he took when he took residence in Orthanc. Wish they would have at least mentioned that Saurman created his own ring, that would have been interesting. I would like to see the Aragorn character develop over his time with the evles in rivendall and time with the other rangers of the north. Anyway, I could about this all day, great topic.