Headplay recast Rainman's monkey sculpt again!

[mojo customz]

a artist creates something---
a big co buys the artist idea and re sells to make $$$$$$----
to call your self a artist when all you saw was a ez way to make $$$$ on someone else creation is just insult to the real artist
not once have i seen a sculptor here offer a item of a character they created , because they know no one would buy it.

 

[mojo customz]

why did rainman call his project for willy wonka (factory owner)
we know why------license---------------
why was this factory owner not the ceo of mars candy
oh ----no one would a pay a grand for this ceo----
but take a collector back to his childhood and make the 1/6 item from a movie he watched as a child------and ring up a G-------per

 

[dchung]

For the record, I never stated that Headplay was necessarily guilty of what has been accused. It seems extremely likely that they are, what with the fact that the items are in fact being sold on ebay and not by the item's sculptor. Also making it seem likely that they are guilty is that they posted pictures of Rainman's sculpts on FB without so much as mentioning Rainman or attributing the works to anyone. It also doesn't help that they've been guilty of recasting before. Still, if there are those of you who want to insist that that is not damning evidence, fine. It wasn't my point to convince anyone that Headplay is guilty or innocent.

It's also not my point to say that Rainman has or hasn't himself conducted business completely according to the various laws that govern the use of likenesses in the US. He seems to be protecting himself from possible infringement claims behind a password-protected site, so there's no doubt he's aware of some of these issues. However, I don't believe anyone has actually notified him with a cease & desist, or that anyone has had their income streams compromised by his activities. In fact, we really don't even know if the rights holders wouldn't consider his work to be a tribute or homage anyway.

BUT, if you go back and read my posts... my point IS -- there is a very obvious reason why people treat a Customizer (like Rainman) and a Re-caster (allegedly like Headplay) very differently. The two are not equivalent. Regarding them differently does not make a person a hypocrite. "A thief is a thief" is a dumb sentiment, as dumb, as I said before, as someone who would believe "a rapist is a rapist".

The good thing to know, as Deckard points out, is who, if you are a customizer, NOT to sell your products to as there are some of you who see nothing wrong with Recasting.

 

[dchung]

Do you think every customizer seeks legal permission to do their work? Please pull your heads out of each others asses. You can try to talk down or insult anyone who has a varying opinion like the little _____es you are, it doesn't change the fact that he obviously doesn't have a leg to stand on or he'd be having their EBay account pulled for repeated violations.

Of course not every customizer seeks legal permission to do their work. But if they wanted to mitigate their risk of being sued, then they should. And even those who do seek permission, myself included, aren't always replied to with a yea or a nay. Whether or not Rainman investigated licensing or even acquired it, it still doesn't give any Recasters carte blanche to pass off Rainman's work as their own. Just because Rainman doesn't want to bring unwanted attention to his work, DOESN'T mean that a recaster who sells Rainman's work as if it's his own isn't a scumbag.

Sometimes people with expired green cards don't report being mugged to the police. It doesn't make mugging okay. And it doesn't make anyone a hypocrite for regarding a mugger more lowly than someone with an expired green card.

 

[Niltusk]

Of course not every customizer seeks legal permission to do their work. But if they wanted to mitigate their risk of being sued, then they should. And even those who do seek permission, myself included, aren't always replied to with a yea or a nay. Whether or not Rainman investigated licensing or even acquired it, it still doesn't give any Recasters carte blanche to pass off Rainman's work as their own. Just because Rainman doesn't want to bring unwanted attention to his work, DOESN'T mean that a recaster who sells Rainman's work as if it's his own isn't a scumbag.

Sometimes people with expired green cards don't report being mugged to the police. It doesn't make mugging okay. And it doesn't make anyone a hypocrite for regarding a mugger more lowly than someone with an expired green card.

Both breaking the law, so you're saying Rainman is bad, just not as bad as a recaster? In your own argument you place both roles as being illegal. You're pretty bad at coming up with sensible arguments. Am I using small enough words for you? I also didn't say anything about hypocrites, you getting confused as to who wrote what? Hard internets is hard.

 

[Niltusk]

I think you have a moral problem. Apparently, you decide what is "right" or "wrong" according to what benefits you.

You don´t see any problem in order a non licensed headsculpt, but you think is wrong if someone makes a recast...

Both things are wrong. Both things are illegal. The fact the first thief (image rights thief) asks the second to stop doesn´t make him right.

I purchase custom HS. So it would be EXTREMELY hypocrital at my side if I condem a recaster. And no, I never purchase a recast, and I don´t think I´ll will (as usually recasts are really bad), but I can´t see how purchase a unlicense HS and a recasted HS could be two different things.

Chung won't understand, because one is an artist and one is a scumbag (in his opinion). Pretty simple to see I think for those not that emotionally involved with pointing fingers.

 

[dchung]

now i will say that rainman is the best in what he does and i am a big fan, but he needs to understand that he is making something that belongs to someone else who paid a lot to produce it, rainman should say the truth and know that he did the same as the one he is not happy with.......
he did it, they are doi

What are you talking about? I'm not aware of any company making the figures he makes. His figures are always made from scratch, of characters ignored by big manufacturers, aren't they?

 

[dchung]

Both breaking the law, so you're saying Rainman is bad, just not as bad as a recaster? DING DING DING! YOU FINALLY GET IT! ONE IS NOT AS BAD AS THE OTHER! WOOHOO!... In your own argument you place both roles as being illegal. "ILLEGAL" FOR THE SIMPLE-MINDED IS A BINARY VALUE -- YOU ARE OR YOU AREN'T; FOR THE REST OF US, THERE ARE SHADES OF GRAY, JUST LIKE THE LAW ITSELF: PETTY THEFT, GRAND THEFT, LARCENY, GRAND LARCENY; OR MISDEMEANORS TO FELONIES... You're pretty bad at coming up with sensible arguments. Am I using small enough words for you? I also didn't say anything about hypocrites, you getting confused as to who wrote what? WHO SAID I WAS TALKING TO YOU?? AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, I TREAT THIS FORUM AS A COMMUNITY; YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE HERE... Hard internets is hard. FOR SOME APPARENTLY.

................

 

[dchung]

The list of people that will never be allowed to participate in any custom commissions I host just keeps growing. Got about a dozen people now who support or sympathise with recasters that I will never ever sell a custom head to or allow on an interest list.

That's a great list. I'm gonna start keeping one too. A couple of guys here just made it a good idea for me too.

 

[Voorhees27]

The Internet is serious business.

 

[Niltusk]

Apparently very serious if you don't agree with the herd.

 

[dchung]

You quoted me dip____, so before you go mis-quoting me further, don't reply to me in a quote and then respond to someone else, why wouldn't you just respond to their post since it seems you understand how to use the reply and quote buttons.

I thought the paragraph break would be sufficiently obvious to denote a new train of thought directed to those at large. I stand corrected.

 

[dchung]

Apparently very serious if you don't agree with the herd.

Niltusk, with all due respect, what is it that you don't agree with?

In all your posts, you mostly just nitpick with a phrase here or there... but, unlike thenammagazine or ironman1188, you haven't really put forth a coherent argument or opinion of substance.

I didn't like the "hypocrisy" accusations directed at people who treat a custom artist differently from a recaster. And I explained why.

You immediately disagreed with my post, yet now claim not to be of the "hypocrisy" arguers...

So... you defend recasting? It's as legitimate to you as sculpting unlicensed heads? Or, are you against both, as both are equally illegal to you? Seriously, man, which is it?

 

[Niltusk]

Niltusk, with all due respect, what is it that you don't agree with?

In all your posts, you mostly just nitpick with a phrase here or there... but, unlike thenammagazine or ironman1188, you haven't really put forth a coherent argument or opinion of substance.

I didn't like the "hypocrisy" accusations directed at people who treat a custom artist differently from a recaster. And I explained why.

You immediately disagreed with my post, yet now claim not to be of the "hypocrisy" arguers...

So... you defend recasting? It's as legitimate to you as sculpting unlicensed heads? Or, are you against both, as both are equally illegal to you? Seriously, man, which is it?

I put my opinion on page 2 of this thread man, learn to read. My question from your incoherent rambling BS thread about a thief is a thief is would you rather people call it a justification, because you seem to have taken an atitude to someone comparing the two. You responded to my question like a little _____ and started insulting my reading comprehension. If I wanted to be petty in my first response to you I could have just posted something similar, but I was trying to be civil and I actually read through every stupid analogy you posted comparing recasting to everything from rape to free samples.

Obviously you just don't get it. So, I'll spell it out. If someone has an issue, my opinion is they should pursue it as far as they can, but the fact is doing business in a grey market is going to have certain inherent risks. I've also already stated that if I pay full price for something of value then I see it bootlegged, thats not my problem Pretty simple, did you get it now? Obviously you won't. You originally said that the hypocrisy line wasn't addressed to me, but now you've come back around and are at saying I disagree with you, but I claim not to be with the "hypocrisy" crowd. So, which is it?

You said "simple minds" only seeing two versions and there you have it, you're trying to paint me into your version or someone elses. So much for your enlightened shades of grey.

As far as opinion, I dealt in fact. I already posted that HeadPlay has not sold the monkey head in question in the past and doesn't have it listed now. Sorry if posting something truthful doesn't work for you, go back to costco and eat your free weiners for all I care and tell them about your rape analogies, they might care.

As far as nitpicking, dude, you're the king idiot of nitpickers. I quoted you and asked about something and because I didn't use the exact same term as you, instead of addressing the question, you insult me again and nitpicked my phrasing rather than answering my question. Spin it how you like, I asked you a question and you answered like a ________ jackass. I think you read into my post as being someone you were arguing with at the time or "grouped" me up in your oh so evolved Non grey shades of thought.

Edit:This was your very first sentence to me when I asked you if it should be called justification rather than thief and thief?

Your reading comprehension needs improvement.

 

[mojo customz]

What are you talking about? I'm not aware of any company making the figures he makes. His figures are always made from scratch, of characters ignored by big manufacturers, aren't they?

we are all talking about headplay recasting rainman head sculpt....period
they both did it without license and have no leg to stand on to complain if someone else does it-----
i can now recast that monkey sculpt from headplay and sell it for half the price , both of them should be happy to have made $$$$$ on someone else license
rainman needs to understand that when he does that, so can headplay, so can i and so on----we are all wrong, none of us can bit** about it----------PERIOD.
Are you aware hot toys is making the back of the future----
all co are about $$$$ and so is rainman-----that is why they all make what they make
hot toys started just like headplay---freggin lucas even took them to court for his likeness---but most have to pay for the license to make it-----again i am not defending headplay/rainman or even myself---just that when you do things wrong than you have no room to point fingers----

 

[dchung]

I put my opinion on page 2 of this thread man, learn to read. My question from your incoherent rambling BS thread about a thief is a thief is would you rather people call it a justification, because you seem to have taken an atitude to someone comparing the two. You responded to my question like a little _____ and started insulting my reading comprehension. If I wanted to be petty in my first response to you I could have just posted something similar, but I was trying to be civil and I actually read through every stupid analogy you posted comparing recasting to everything from rape to free samples.

Obviously you just don't get it. So, I'll spell it out. If someone has an issue, my opinion is they should pursue it as far as they can, but the fact is doing business in a grey market is going to have certain inherent risks. I've also already stated that if I pay full price for something of value then I see it bootlegged, thats not my problem Pretty simple, did you get it now? Obviously you won't. You originally said that the hypocrisy line wasn't addressed to me, but now you've come back around and are at saying I disagree with you, but I claim not to be with the "hypocrisy" crowd. So, which is it?

You said "simple minds" only seeing two versions and there you have it, you're trying to paint me into your version or someone elses. So much for your enlightened shades of grey.

As far as opinion, I dealt in fact. I already posted that HeadPlay has not sold the monkey head in question in the past and doesn't have it listed now. Sorry if posting something truthful doesn't work for you, go back to costco and eat your free weiners for all I care and tell them about your rape analogies, they might care.

As far as nitpicking, dude, you're the king idiot of nitpickers. I quoted you and asked about something and because I didn't use the exact same term as you, instead of addressing the question, you insult me again and nitpicked my phrasing rather than answering my question. Spin it how you like, I asked you a question and you answered like a ________ jackass. I think you read into my post as being someone you were arguing with at the time or "grouped" me up in your oh so evolved Non grey shades of thought.

Edit:This was your very first sentence to me when I asked you if it should be called justification rather than thief and thief?

Yes, I said you should work on your reading comprehension because, after my several paragraphs of explaining why a recaster like Headplay is far worse than a customizer working without an official license, your take away was that I was defending Headplay. (You know that's what I was talking about and that's why you didn't quote that part of your quote.) You literally took what I said, and concluded the last thing I could have intended... a defense of Headplay. I think that is a reflection of poor reading comprehension. And I called it like it is. But nowhere in this thread have I used such juvenile tactics and patently offensive terms like dip____, jackass, BS, etc. I've also restarted with a courteous "with all due respect" to no effect. So aside from reading comprehension, you should also learn to debate with some maturity and less emotion.

See, here's the thing, now that you've spelled out your views: "they should pursue it as far as they can, but the fact is doing business in a grey market is going to have certain inherent risks. I've also already stated that if I pay full price for something of value then I see it bootlegged, thats not my problem"... You don't even really disagree with what I was saying... that there is a difference in degree, in ethics and legality, between what Rainman does, and what Headplay does. You merely rebutted my original post... with an incorrect conclusion... for apparently no reason. And you continue to spew expletives and derogatory comments which define yourself more than me.

At any rate, now that I know you don't disagree with my point, we can lay this issue to rest.

 

[dchung]

we are all talking about headplay recasting rainman head sculpt....period
they both did it without license and have no leg to stand on to complain if someone else does it-----
i can now recast that monkey sculpt from headplay and sell it for half the price , both of them should be happy to have made $$$$$ on someone else license
rainman needs to understand that when he does that, so can headplay, so can i and so on----we are all wrong, none of us can bit** about it----------PERIOD.
Are you aware hot toys is making the back of the future----
all co are about $$$$ and so is rainman-----that is why they all make what they make
hot toys started just like headplay---freggin lucas even took them to court for his likeness---but most have to pay for the license to make it-----again i am not defending headplay/rainman or even myself---just that when you do things wrong than you have no room to point fingers----

I don't seem to be able to get through to you that not every person, celeb cares about likeness issues as they are spelled out in the US. But no matter. Let's suppose they are the same in terms of not respecting likeness rights. They'd still be very different because one has stolen the artwork of the other, which is an entirely different issue. Rainman may not be able to cry foul when it comes to the right to use a likeness right, but he has every right to feel ripped off because someone is copying his artwork.

If you were to buy from Headplay and recast Rainman's sculpt, then you would join Headplay in my list of low-lifes.

I contacted Mattel, who held the licenses for 1:6 scale BTTF several times, told them that I would like to make figures, and received no reply whatsoever. I even tracked down Mattel's inventor relations person, sent them links to my site and figures of Marty McFly and still received no reply. I practically went asking for a "cease and desist" and didn't get one...lol... Recently, Hot Toys announced license acquisition after I started. Besides, you'll notice they announced Marty and the Delorean only. I'm making neither of those and will therefore not be infringing on the profit stream of the license they acquired.

And for the record, HT did not start like Headplay. They hired/paid an artist to do an original sculpt of Lucas. They did NOT steal it and pass the work of art off as their own.

 

[mojo customz]

I don't seem to be able to get through to you that not every person, celeb cares about likeness issues as they are spelled out in the US. But no matter. Let's suppose they are the same in terms of not respecting likeness rights. They'd still be very different because one has stolen the artwork of the other, which is an entirely different issue. Rainman may not be able to cry foul when it comes to the right to use a likeness right, but he has every right to feel ripped off because someone is copying his artwork.

If you were to buy from Headplay and recast Rainman's sculpt, then you would join Headplay in my list of low-lifes.

I contacted Mattel, who held the licenses for 1:6 scale BTTF several times, told them that I would like to make figures, and received no reply whatsoever. I even tracked down Mattel's inventor relations person, sent them links to my site and figures of Marty McFly and still received no reply. I practically went asking for a "cease and desist" and didn't get one...lol... Recently, Hot Toys announced license acquisition after I started. Besides, you'll notice they announced Marty and the Delorean only. I'm making neither of those and will therefore not be infringing on the profit stream of the license they acquired.

And for the record, HT did not start like Headplay. They hired/paid an artist to do an original sculpt of Lucas. They did NOT steal it and pass the work of art off as their own.

i am done with you----i know people on crack more sense than you-----

 

[die]

Wow, this still going?

Look, I'm hoping that both sides can see that the other side does have some value to what they are saying. Sure, it does suck to have somebody profit off of your hardwork - it sucks both ways... it sucks if you made a sculpt and somebody simply copied it and got rich off of it and it sucks if you designed a character and a sculptor copies your creation into a 1/6 head and sells it and gets all the money.

Right? could we all agree on that at least, please?


Again... we can not play moral police, people must be allowed to make their own decisions. I have sculpted alot of things and sold them over the years, I personally do not care if somebody recasts any of them, I'd be flattered if anything. I do not recast heads, not even the stuff that I make. I realize that once you put it out there, it's out there. You can not control that, if it's resold, traded, whatever, it can be recast. I truly love 1/6 as a hobby, I'm not in in for the money....and Ahhhh yes, the money, that is what it's all about? We could tap dance around the issue all day long but somewhere deep down we all gotta really know it's true.

The biggest shift in the hobby in the last few years has been the overwhelming amount of Grail Hunters with deep pockets and the Grail Makers with the expensive "limited runs". And this courtship drives alot of these debates. The Grail Hunters don't want anybody to say or do anything to discourage The Grail Makers and the Grail Makers continue to want to make money (not saying they don't have genuine love for the art, but they do make major money and carefully word items to avoid lawsuit)

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with any of this...as a matter of fact, whenever I'm lucky enough to get a spot and/or the cost isn't too outrageous, I get in on these purchases as well. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, I can't get on here and try to convince everybody else that my methods are the way everybody should operate. Recasts or not, we should continue to support the artists we appreciate. I think alot of times, people are only angry because they are elitists and don't want others in on their "limited runs".

I would imagine everybody here by now is into the hobby enough to have bought at least one thing that isn't a 100% licensed product or was a "bootleg" in some way. I had plans to buy a Hot Toys Billie Jean MJ for $140.....4 days later, he dies. Seller changes the price to $900, so a few months later I buy a HK bootleg head and clothing set and make my own version.

 

[thenammagazine]

Now you're being condescending and rude. And your response is not answering the question I'm asking. I'm done. Have fun kids.

Eric

Of course not every customizer seeks legal permission to do their work. But if they wanted to mitigate their risk of being sued, then they should. And even those who do seek permission, myself included, aren't always replied to with a yea or a nay. Whether or not Rainman investigated licensing or even acquired it, it still doesn't give any Recasters carte blanche to pass off Rainman's work as their own. Just because Rainman doesn't want to bring unwanted attention to his work, DOESN'T mean that a recaster who sells Rainman's work as if it's his own isn't a scumbag.

Sometimes people with expired green cards don't report being mugged to the police. It doesn't make mugging okay. And it doesn't make anyone a hypocrite for regarding a mugger more lowly than someone with an expired green card.

Just a quick question for both of you. If someone was making thousands of tax-free dollars off of a sculpt he made of your likeness (never happen, but for the purposes of this analogy, we'll pretend), and didn't pay you a single penny, how would you feel?