Headplay recast Rainman's monkey sculpt again!

[dchung]

Just a quick question for both of you. If someone was making thousands of tax-free dollars off of a sculpt he made of your likeness (never happen, but for the purposes of this analogy, we'll pretend), and didn't pay you a single penny, how would you feel?

If the sculpt was brilliant, and I had no plans to make money off of a 1/6 scale version of myself, then I'd be honored and flattered, ask him for one as a favor, and congratulate him on capitalizing on my fanbase, perhaps even stimulating and growing it. If I desperately needed money myself for whatever reason, I might try to arrange an agreement to share in profits, which he would probably have to be amenable to.

If the sculpt sucked, or if I had plans to make money myself from my likeness in that format and his doing so was infringing on my rightful profit stream, then I'd send him a cease and desist. And if that didn't work, I'd take him to court, where the law would help me prevail.

That's if I know about it. If I didn't know about it, and it didn't affect me in any way, then what is there to worry about?

Fair enough?

 

[bperry]

If the sculpt was brilliant, and I had no plans to make money off of a 1/6 scale version of myself, then I'd be honored and flattered, ask him for one as a favor, and congratulate him on capitalizing on my fanbase, perhaps even stimulating and growing it. If I desperately needed money myself for whatever reason, I might try to arrange an agreement to share in profits, which he would probably have to be amenable to.

If the sculpt sucked, or if I had plans to make money myself from my likeness in that format and his doing so was infringing on my rightful profit stream, then I'd send him a cease and desist. And if that didn't work, I'd take him to court, where the law would help me prevail.

That's if I know about it. If I didn't know about it, and it didn't affect me in any way, then what is there to worry about?

Fair enough?

Nice thinking there. I just wish that's actually how it works between toys companies and license holders. Maybe Hot toys and Sideshow ought to try your method and start making more unlicensed figures, as long as " the sculpt was brilliant", there should be a problem, it will all work out between toy companies and license holders. Sky is the limit.

 

[thenammagazine]

If the sculpt was brilliant, and I had no plans to make money off of a 1/6 scale version of myself, then I'd be honored and flattered, ask him for one as a favor, and congratulate him on capitalizing on my fanbase, perhaps even stimulating and growing it. If I desperately needed money myself for whatever reason, I might try to arrange an agreement to share in profits, which he would probably have to be amenable to.

If the sculpt sucked, or if I had plans to make money myself from my likeness in that format and his doing so was infringing on my rightful profit stream, then I'd send him a cease and desist. And if that didn't work, I'd take him to court, where the law would help me prevail.

That's if I know about it. If I didn't know about it, and it didn't affect me in any way, then what is there to worry about?

Fair enough?

And if the artist blew you off? Keep in mind, with the artists in question, there's zero attempt at even contacting the subject.

 

[dchung]

And if the artist blew you off? Keep in mind, with the artists in question, there's zero attempt at even contacting the subject.

If I'm someone whose likeness is worth doing/selling in one-sixth scale, then there's a very good chance that I'm someone who's successful enough in another venture such that the time I spend going after a small-time artist/toy company would be better spent doing whatever it is I actually/originally do to make money. The opportunity cost of hunting down and suing these artists could very well exceed the money that I would recover/win in court. Which then translates to, if I don't bother to tell them to stop, how can they "blow me off"?

Let's say I was Robert Downey, Jr. for example, who's gonna make $50+ million from Avengers alone this year. Assuming 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, he makes $24,000+/hr. Why on earth would I spend even a half an hour of my time trying to track down guys who are selling recast or unlicensed versions of my head for $50 a pop? Especially when they're selling what, 10 a week tops?

If, however, what the infringers were doing was somehow destroying my reputation (not sure how that would apply to toy companies) or the desirability of my likeness on toys, or was damaging my original way to make money at $24K/hr, OR, more likely, if they were infringing on the rights of another toy company or sculptor who had rightfully paid to use my likeness, I or the license holder should send a c&d letter. And if they blow me off, sue. Ultimately, the economics of it all, as a practical matter, trumps whether I exercise my options under the law.

This is also a reason why I, and others, view Headplay's play with less sympathy. He's (allegedly) infringing on Rainman's income stream. Granted, Rainman's income stream is not properly licensed, but it was still created through his own hard work, time and talent. I don't know Rainman's situation, but I suspect he is not wealthy enough to hire attorneys to help him negotiate proper licenses. I don't know if he's got a wife and kids to feed. But, all of that notwithstanding, I do think it's fair to say, his lost income stream, for the amount of time he puts into his sculpt, is a far higher percentage of his total income/assets (and therefore means more to him) than say what RDJ would lose out on. Subjectively... isn't stealing, for example, 50% of a person's total income a greater crime than someone else stealing 0.00001% of someone else's total income...? (And hypothetically, for the case at hand, Rainman's NOT making figures doesn't put income stream from non-existent figures into the owner's hands... so no money is actually being wrongfully appropriated by Rainman... so that 0.000001% is actually 0.0%) This is another reason why I don't view the "crimes" equivalently, and don't think the "thief is a thief" argument is appropos.

 

[dchung]

Nice thinking there. I just wish that's actually how it works between toys companies and license holders. Maybe Hot toys and Sideshow ought to try your method and start making more unlicensed figures, as long as " the sculpt was brilliant", there should be a problem, it will all work out between toy companies and license holders. Sky is the limit.

Well... I was asked how I personally would handle it. Keep in mind, the US is a very litigious society, and globally, not everyone thinks/behaves the way Americans do. In many places, it would be flattering.

Also, I was asked what I would do if I were the person whose rights were infringed upon. Not sure what you mean by "my method".

As far as how I conduct myself as a sculptor, see post #180.

 

[die]

I think this discussion may just get into some strange territory.

I'm hoping people don't think that it's gonna be perfectly alright to make and market their own Jack Sparrow sculpts just because Johnny Depp himself told you it was ok with him.

 

[steven.giunta]

Has anyone 5talked to the sculptor?are we positive he didn't sell headplay the rights to his head?the way I look at it is its a recast,not as good as the original.if you want to by a cheap knockoff go for it.if you want the best quality made version spend the money and get the original.almost all products have knocikoffs,you can go to just about any flea market in the us and there full of knockoff clothes,electronics and even toys.

 

[SwedishHeat]

Here's the thing that kills me about recasts though. We hate headplay for recasting Rainman's heads, but we love headplay for recasting True Types.

That thread on the Alpha Toys body. . . nobody is calling them scumbags for recasting work there. What's the deal??

 

[Ironman1188]

I don't know if you are or aren't a recaster, I can't know that, should I give everyone a voight kampff test before I let them on an interest list or sell them a custom from my collection? I don't care how you discuss it but once you cross the line and basically say you don't care and would buy a recast head, then yes, I'm judging you and saying since I don't support it, I won't help you get a custom work. I feel it is a respectful way of supporting that artist and preventing it from falling into the wrong hands.

For the record, I never stated that Headplay was necessarily guilty of what has been accused. It seems extremely likely that they are, what with the fact that the items are in fact being sold on ebay and not by the item's sculptor. Also making it seem likely that they are guilty is that they posted pictures of Rainman's sculpts on FB without so much as mentioning Rainman or attributing the works to anyone. It also doesn't help that they've been guilty of recasting before. Still, if there are those of you who want to insist that that is not damning evidence, fine. It wasn't my point to convince anyone that Headplay is guilty or innocent.

It's also not my point to say that Rainman has or hasn't himself conducted business completely according to the various laws that govern the use of likenesses in the US. He seems to be protecting himself from possible infringement claims behind a password-protected site, so there's no doubt he's aware of some of these issues. However, I don't believe anyone has actually notified him with a cease & desist, or that anyone has had their income streams compromised by his activities. In fact, we really don't even know if the rights holders wouldn't consider his work to be a tribute or homage anyway.

BUT, if you go back and read my posts... my point IS -- there is a very obvious reason why people treat a Customizer (like Rainman) and a Re-caster (allegedly like Headplay) very differently. The two are not equivalent. Regarding them differently does not make a person a hypocrite. "A thief is a thief" is a dumb sentiment, as dumb, as I said before, as someone who would believe "a rapist is a rapist".

The good thing to know, as Deckard points out, is who, if you are a customizer, NOT to sell your products to as there are some of you who see nothing wrong with Recasting.

So, you will refuse to sell people original sculpts, because you think they may make or supprot recasting, thus forcing the very need you seek to halt. It is indeed a vicious cycle.

I still find it humorous [please note, I'm not complaining one way or the other on it] that no one has a problem with the threads where Headplay's sculpts are being reworked into different characters.

 

[Deckard]

So, you will refuse to sell people original sculpts, because you think they may make or supprot recasting, thus forcing the very need you seek to halt. It is indeed a vicious cycle.
.

No idea what this means, the need I seek to halt I guess, would be people taking original artwork from an artist and making copies. Regardless of if it's a licensed, unlicensed, or an original character created by that artist like a random zombie. Gonna be honest, don't really care about your opinion on this, mine is simple and out there, I'm not selling any original artwork to people who support recasting. Get it? You bought a Michael Westen head from my old comission thread so any BS your spouting about being against stealing a likeness is simply that for the sake of something you can do, I guess your bored this week.

Since your one of the people who've come out supporting or not caring about recasting I'm just gonna go ahead and toss you on the ol' ignore list and keep it simple, gl with your crusade or w/e and gl getting custom material around here in the future.

Heres a little tip too when your engaging in a private buissness transaction in virtual aninimity and screaming about mccarthyism, your not entitled to miranda rights or a fair trial. Your entitled to the 30 seconds most of us can afford to give you to say, is this guy I'm selling to a scammer or a long standing member of the community, is he somewhere I can ship to reasonably, is he a recaster or trustworthy person? Your not. I'm not pre-judging you, I'm judging you based on what you've said and your past actions. Thats all you get.

 

[sky_captain]

Here's the thing that kills me about recasts though. We hate headplay for recasting Rainman's heads, but we love headplay for recasting True Types.

That thread on the Alpha Toys body. . . nobody is calling them scumbags for recasting work there. What's the deal??

People's morals bend to suit their needs.

 

[Ironman1188]

No idea what this means, the need I seek to halt I guess, would be people taking original artwork from an artist and making copies. Gonna be honest, don't really care about your opinion on this, mine is simple and out there, I'm not selling any original artwork to people who support recasting. Get it? You bought a Michael Westen head from my old comission thread so any BS your spouting about being against stealing a likeness is simply that for the sake of something you can do, I guess your bored this week.

It means you're going to stop selling to people YOU think might be a recaster or might in favor of recasting whether they are or aren't, basicly forcing them to look for a recast of the very sculpt you will deny them.
I'm not spouting any BS. I never said I was against "stealing" a likeness for a sculpt. I said the evidence - IN THIS THREAD - is circumstancial at best against Headplay. I did say that I saw little difference between the sculptor of an unlicensed sculpt and the recaster of an unlicensed sculpt.
Since then, Dan and Eric have posted interesting views on that as well giving a better/different view of that topic. [BTW that Weston was awesome!]

Since your one of the people who've come out supporting or not caring about recasting I'm just gonna go ahead and toss you on the ol' ignore list and keep it simple, gl with your crusade or w/e and gl getting custom material around here in the future.

So, now by your own admission, its not even if someone supports recasting, but even if they don't have an opinion one way or the other? Don't worry about my "gl" getting sculpts, I'll do fine. The people here know I don't recast and don't sell the sculpts I buy to recasters so it really shouldn't be an issue.
What's next? No sculpts for those who supported Obama? No sculpts if you didn't care one way or the other when Whitney Houston died? Good Luck to you. If you keep cutting out the people who would buy from you because how you think they feel or what you think they might do your selling list will get short pretty quick.
Of course, do you ever really "know" anyone? There's no telling who's been selling all those sculpts to diver4. He could already be one of your "trusted" customers, but chooses to remain silent so he can still get those sculpts.

Heres a little tip too when your engaging in a private buissness transaction in virtual aninimity and screaming about mccarthyism, your not entitled to miranda rights or a fair trial. Your entitled to the 30 seconds most of us can afford to give you to say, is this guy I'm selling to a scammer or a long standing member of the community, is he somewhere I can ship to reasonably, is he a recaster or trustworthy person? Your not. I'm not pre-judging you, I'm judging you based on what you've said and your past actions. Thats all you get.

OK, having been in law enforcement for many years, EVERYONE being accused of something in America is entitled to fair trial.
I will ask you do exand on something:
- Am I a scammer? No
- Am I a long standing member of this community? Yes, been here longer than you have
- Can I be shipped to reasonably? I surely can
- Am a recaster? No I am not. There are many here that can verify that.
- Am I trustworthy? Yes, there are also those here that have sold me there wares and asked that they not be cast, not be shown [in some cases] or that I not loan them out. All things I have done and would do again.
Please, what past actions are you referring to that you are "judging" me on?
You are being extremely shortsighted, a bit irrational, insulting.
Your "case" is not dissimilar to the one that gets overturned to prove the wrongly jailed man innocent right after his lethal injection.
I hate to use the analogy again, but you remind me of Lee J. Cobb in Twelve Angry Men.

 

[dchung]

Has anyone 5talked to the sculptor?are we positive he didn't sell headplay the rights to his head?the way I look at it is its a recast,not as good as the original.if you want to by a cheap knockoff go for it.if you want the best quality made version spend the money and get the original.almost all products have knocikoffs,you can go to just about any flea market in the us and there full of knockoff clothes,electronics and even toys.

Yeah, Rainman himself posted a thread asking his loyal customers, friends and fans to boycott the knockoffs.

 

[dchung]

...I did say that I saw little difference between the sculptor of an unlicensed sculpt and the recaster of an unlicensed sculpt.
Since then, Dan and Eric have posted interesting views on that as well giving a better/different view of that topic. [BTW that Weston was awesome!]

People like me need you to see a bigger difference, Steve. You're one of the good guys in this hobby, so it's very discouraging to hear you say that.

Law schools crank out lawyers, medical schools crank out doctors... they'll always be in good supply... but good sculptors/artisans in 1/6, even the top guys who get recruited to work for Hot Toys someday, all start out trying to find a way to make their passion sustain itself. I would wager there is not a single 1/6 artist out there who didn't at one point sculpt something he didn't hold the license to. It's unfortunate, but it's just the state of this hobby/field.

Recasting requires no talent, no cultivation of taste or skill, and little more than a selfish attitude that says I'm going to exploit someone else's hard work and effort and hijack their income stream.

This is not a legal discussion, (read previous posts for all that jazz)... this is just an honest look at what we're doing here:

If we can't, as a community, support the artists who someday may be hired to work on properly licensed figures for our enjoyment, support them as they develop their craft, so that someday they can be employed by, or start new companies whose existences will create greater competition among companies (and drive down prices)... which is all a good thing... then we will have only ourselves to blame, if these artists become disgruntled, give up the hobby, disappear off the radar, and we are left dealing with only one company, with decent artists, selling their products at sky-high prices...

If Rainman finishes up the figures he's promised, that were begged for really, and then packs up and leaves (something I'm considering as well given how unsupportive this community has been to those of us who create our crafts to fulfill people's wishlists, etc.), then that'd be a real shame.

My two cents.

 

[MisterToyNYC]

Well said dchung.

Eric

 

[Tekkaman Blade]

Don't let a few jerks gets to you, there are those who post negative posts just to sound cool and stir a reaction. Many would rather not comment in a thread like this due to how heated it can get as it is really a hot button issue. Just follow Deckards example and keep a list. If you run off, they win, and the rest of us who don't support recasting lose.

 

[Ironman1188]

People like me need you to see a bigger difference, Steve. You're one of the good guys in this hobby, so it's very discouraging to hear you say that.

Law schools crank out lawyers, medical schools crank out doctors... they'll always be in good supply... but good sculptors/artisans in 1/6, even the top guys who get recruited to work for Hot Toys someday, all start out trying to find a way to make their passion sustain itself. I would wager there is not a single 1/6 artist out there who didn't at one point sculpt something he didn't hold the license to. It's unfortunate, but it's just the state of this hobby/field.

Recasting requires no talent, no cultivation of taste or skill, and little more than a selfish attitude that says I'm going to exploit someone else's hard work and effort and hijack their income stream.

This is not a legal discussion, (read previous posts for all that jazz)... this is just an honest look at what we're doing here:

If we can't, as a community, support the artists who someday may be hired to work on properly licensed figures for our enjoyment, support them as they develop their craft, so that someday they can be employed by, or start new companies whose existences will create greater competition among companies (and drive down prices)... which is all a good thing... then we will have only ourselves to blame, if these artists become disgruntled, give up the hobby, disappear off the radar, and we are left dealing with only one company, with decent artists, selling their products at sky-high prices...

If Rainman finishes up the figures he's promised, that were begged for really, and then packs up and leaves (something I'm considering as well given how unsupportive this community has been to those of us who create our crafts to fulfill people's wishlists, etc.), then that'd be a real shame.

My two cents.

Dan, I do absolutely see what you're saying. There have been a number of good points brought up, some on both sides I think. I have to admit, I can't sculpt and, no offense intended to the fine sculptors that are out there, I, as a collector, have always seen them as a source for a head sculpt. Simply, I always viewed Headplay, Loading Toys etc.... the same way. A source for a head sculpt. To me, to paraphrase an old TV tune "a source is a source".
I don't want to see anyone stop sculpting.
I think the "there is no difference" argument got out of hand. There was no support to the "recasting" gripe early in the thread. There were no facts to substantiate the claims posted. Only attack on Headplay. I think that brought out a certain amount of folks looking for evidence, while at the same time using, whether right or wrong, the neither have a license issue.
There are knock-offs of everything as has been stated. Again, do I buy the camaro or the firebird?
Again, while being honest, if I see a head on ebay or on a sales site/thread and its a decent price, I don't spend time researching to see if someone else ever did one. That would be pointless on my part.
Look how many versions of Indy, Willis, Arnold, Deckard, Sly, etc... are out there.

Don't let a few jerks gets to you, there are those who post negative posts just to sound cool and stir a reaction. Many would rather not comment in a thread like this due to how heated it can get as it is really a hot button issue. Just follow Deckards example and keep a list. If you run off, they win, and the rest of us who don't support recasting lose.

Now we're back to name calling. I wonder how many of those who don't post are reading, thinking, "whew, if I had posted they'd know I sold so&so's sculpt to diver4 or headplay or whoever."
Of course, by yours and deckard's rational, those same folks would be on the "OK" list to sell to again and again while other good buyers and customers are "ignored".
Again, shortsighted and over reactive.
I wish you all luck if thats what you are turning to doing, but if you keep "thinking" you know what someone else is thinking or how they feel or what they are going to do, then it is only a matter of time before evryone else winds up on one of your lists and you have no one to sell your wares to. And that, is the really sad part.

I am curious. How many of you feel that the Headplay Depp redo into the Crow is ok? How many of you would even comment : right or wrong.

 

[dchung]

I am curious. How many of you feel that the Headplay Depp redo into the Crow is ok? How many of you would even comment : right or wrong.

What arrovve does to something he pays for is his business.

If he starts selling copies of his work, then certain issues come into play again. Is what he sells still obviously derived from the original sculpt? This matters because if someone down the line, conversely, buys his sculpt to make a Dillinger, then the original artist may have had his profit stream infringed upon. So, how did Headplay acquire that sculpt? Is it a recast of someone else's work? Or did Headplay hire an artist and pay him to create it?

 

[dchung]

...if I see a head on ebay or on a sales site/thread and its a decent price, I don't spend time researching to see if someone else ever did one. That would be pointless on my part.

If you don't know, fine. But if you DO know it's a recast, and you could, if you wanted, support the artist, and choose not to... then don't be surprised if artists drop out of the game.

 

[die]

How about this, if sculpting without the license to the character is as noble & just as people want to pitch it as being, quit selling ANDROID HUNTER and CHOCOLATE FACTORY PROPRIETOR figures and let's just get some Rick Deckard and Willy Wonka figures.


or was there some creative reason for the vagueness of the name?


If you sculpt something and put it out there for sale without aquiring the license for the character likeness, you run the risk of other enterprising businessmen taking a shortcut too. I know that and take that into consideration every time I sell anything that I sculpt.

I'm just tired of all these people trying to convince us to support their cause and explaining how we gotta "protect the artists" and stuff. Come on now, if you had paid for the licensing then your lawyer could support you by just sending a C&D letter instead of telling us how evil these recasters are. Look at the struggles Triad Toys have been through over the years, but they started from the bottom and then began securing licenses, if it were all free & easy everybody would be doing it (which kinda is what's happening now)

IT'S SIMPLE - I do not recast and I do not mass produce figures for sale, it's just a hobby for me. I realize that by supporting Hanouman in buying his Arkham Joker sculpt, I am supporting an artist who has copied another artist's work. Yes, the new stylized look of the Joker in the Arkham games was done by another artist who will not see a dime of the money Hanouman has stacked up. That is why I'm not in on the recaster witch hunt, besides the majority oif the recasts are crap and not even worth the worry.

MisterToyNYC, I realize it's a business for you and I see why you feel the way you feel but it doesn't make anything I'm saying less true. Like I've said before, I'm more concerned with the way the sculptors themselves are treating the good people who support them. Diver4 isn't doing me any harm, I've never even bought anything from the guy.

if I remember correctly, we've both been waiting on an Arkham Joker sculpt for months now, right?