DETOLF sized dioramas vs larger TrueScale 1/6 dioramas. Your thoughts?

[JazzInc]

This is a continuation of a conversation that started in one of my build threads and I thought it was such an important discussion with the group, that it warranted its own thread. PLEASE LET ME KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS:

Hey Joost!

I want to thank you (as many other already have and will continue to do) for the incredible new dimension you've added to this hobby with your (and your father's) peerless work. You truly are adding so much to this endevor, and for that we are in your debt (figuratively AND literally!).

And now, for the wrinkle. I hate to turn this into the slippery slope I know you feared this whole process could become, but I was just reading through the latest comments on the Tantive Service Corridor dio, and I just can't put aside this thought. If wider and deeper is something you are considering as a premium feature for the Service Corridor, I wonder if wider and deeper might be a consideration here.

I'll spare you the impassioned plea and all the reasoning as to why this would be a show stopper for this particular dio, because the benefits in terms of the display are clear. Just wandering if you think it could ever be made practical with a reasonable upcharge.

Thanks my friend!

Dear Quigon,

Thank you so much for your kind words! It is messages like these that really keep our energy up! Just yesterday and then my dad said to each other that we are really having fun with this and we were both so surprised, amazed and humbled by the flight this is taking thanks to the community and the warm community support and response.

Yes, I see the slippery slope too. I've learned that if you're trying to please everybody, nobody will like it. So, with everything I do, I have to make design choices that I know some will dislike, and I hope most will like. That being said, one of the other things we discussed for future kits is something like a TrueScale 1/6 kit where we are not restricted by the dimensions of the Detolf. Now don't get me wrong, I do not plan on giving up the Detolf line of kits, but I could add a design line to our list of the same diorama with larger dimensions. I've been wanting to do that ever since I saw Hot Toys' Tantive IV entry way on Toy Soul.

That would be something that could stand on its own, but for instance, could also fit inside an IKEA Besta, killing two birds with one stone that way. The emperors throne room, carbon freezing chamber and tantive entryway would be the first three on that list for me.

However, there probably would be a problem with the last part of your request. It won't be possible to build something that would be easily 3 to 4 times as large as our current products and keep the price in the same range. The one thing we will have to find out is how many can afford the higher price point and whether we can get enough quality of scale at that higher price point to make the release worthwhile.

Also, I would have to factor in that I would lose customers on the Detolf Side who would now buy the TrueScale product, lowering numbers, and decreasing quantities of scale and efficiency on that line of kits. In short, it is something I really want to try out, but part of me is afraid of the results if you know what I mean.

Therefore, I am really open to any and all suggestions and feedback, like always. Some of the greatest ideas have come from the community feedback, so go ahead, let me know your thoughts, each and everyone of you. I feel this endeavor is no longer just me and my dad, but by the group, for the group.

 

[nathan.never]

Your thinking is solid.
More affordable and compact vs. Expensive and Truescale?

I am always for true scale, but I understand your concerns. I myself probably couldn't afford all your truscales.

For your sake (profitwise, which will keep your work going) you shouldn't abandon DETOLF since most people display their collection that way.
But, I believe you could make the more iconic stuff in truescale. There could be one truescale for 3 detolf releases, so this gives people more time to save and buy.

Anyway, that is just my thinking...

 

[momaw]

I would love some Besta sized diorama's. But honestly, the detolf ones already push me to the limit of what I can afford. Shipped the service corridor exceeded $500AUD and while I would love to support larger sizes the reality is I don't think I could afford it. I really want something to display the full bounty hunter set, and if something like that is made I will do what I can to scrape together the funds, but I can't see it fitting even a Besta so, dilemma.

I know many here can afford bigger and I would be happy (and jealous) to see the pictures from what can be achieved for them, but I also think they are in the minority and Joost can't be stuck with unsold dioramas or this whole thing fails. The only way I can see the large scale working is that people commit from the outset with a deposit that is refunded if the minimum order volume isn't achieved, but converts to an NRD once the sales target is met and production is green lit. That still carries risk for Joost as he needs a full prototype to check it all works and to know what to charge. I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point.

 

[JazzInc]

Your thinking is solid.
More affordable and compact vs. Expensive and Truescale?

I am always for true scale, but I understand your concerns. I myself probably couldn't afford all your truscales.

For your sake (profitwise, which will keep your work going) you shouldn't abandon DETOLF since most people display their collection that way.
But, I believe you could make the more iconic stuff in truescale. There could be one truescale for 3 detolf releases, so this gives people more time to save and buy.

Anyway, that is just my thinking...

I think we are very much in line on this!

...but I also think they are in the minority and Joost can't be stuck with unsold dioramas or this whole thing fails. The only way I can see the large scale working is that people commit from the outset with a deposit that is refunded if the minimum order volume isn't achieved, but converts to an NRD once the sales target is met and production is green lit. That still carries risk for Joost as he needs a full prototype to check it all works and to know what to charge. I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point.

I think that's a great idea. I'll run the risk of the prototyping cost if I have deposits along the rules you set out. Sounds fair to everyone! Thanks

 

[Subdomain]

I believe the larger dios will continue to be a very limited market. I was very tempted by your original death star diorama, but ultimately the size and price deterred me. I like the idea to stay mostly with detolf designs but to make them as versatile as possible, being modular whenever possible, able to stand alone outside a detolf, and expandable as in the case with your most recent tantive corridor release. That dio can easily be made larger outside of a detolf as we've been discussing over the last day or two in that thread. I also like the option of no ceiling as that can really make scale issues more obvious and quickly make things feel cramped.

I realize these things are a lot to ask for, but the designs so far have already achieved many of these ideas. Most of all I would just like to say thanks for making these high quality items and involving the community in your creative process.

Now get back to work, lol!

 

[Aliaz]

I would love some Besta sized diorama's. But honestly, the detolf ones already push me to the limit of what I can afford. Shipped the service corridor exceeded $500AUD and while I would love to support larger sizes the reality is I don't think I could afford it. I really want something to display the full bounty hunter set, and if something like that is made I will do what I can to scrape together the funds, but I can't see it fitting even a Besta so, dilemma.

I know many here can afford bigger and I would be happy (and jealous) to see the pictures from what can be achieved for them, but I also think they are in the minority and Joost can't be stuck with unsold dioramas or this whole thing fails. The only way I can see the large scale working is that people commit from the outset with a deposit that is refunded if the minimum order volume isn't achieved, but converts to an NRD once the sales target is met and production is green lit. That still carries risk for Joost as he needs a full prototype to check it all works and to know what to charge. I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point.

I agree with this. :goodpost

 

[JazzInc]

I think it is definitely a slippery slope, Joost. You're absolutely fantastic (which is why I've bought all of them) and it worries me that people will start making all these demands and scare you off. We can all say that won't happen, especially with you being such a nice guy, but it has happened a lot on this forum - we have lost some very good people.

So, my opinion is that you carry on doing exactly what you're doing. If you can include "upgrade kits" then fantastic. Otherwise, if you're talking about proper scale items, which will also be amazing, then you should take deposits and interest lists first. The last thing I would want to see is you getting frustrated with putting in a lot of them and money, responding to the requests, and then being let down and disappointed.

For me, it's not about money but practicality and how they look on display. I don't have Detolfs, but I am getting one or two just for your work! The price must be attractive to quite a few people because they're not far off the cost of one or two figures.

Well, it's funny you say this. I've seen this forum be very demanding and certain people being down right unreasonable, and I was very afraid of being treated the same, but somehow everyone I've dealt with so far has been much more understanding towards us, like yourself when my father sent you 12x part D instead of 6xC and 6xD. Then again, sometimes I have to make design choices where the reasoning behind it won't be obvious to everyone and there I have lost a few people, who judged instead of asking questions. To them I say, good riddance. As things stand now, I am overwhelmed by the positive support from the community and we will continue to do our best to serve it to the best of our abilities, taking into account as many of their wishes as possible. On some of them, I'll just have to take a chance.

 

[momaw]

True gentleman Joost. Now get back to work making the exact dioramas I want and ignore everyone else cause they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[mao86]

I'd be fine with anything Detolf size that can also be displayed out of one as well (top, sides, etc that will allow it to stand on it's own securely). I would be nice to have an option to expand the diorama in size via wider floors, taller sides, etc. as an expansion pack or as an upgrade to a diorama.

Ultimately, price is what will determine how this places out. Joost, I think you've hit a sweet spot with your pricing, size and the insane level of workmanship you (and Dad) provide on each build.

I don't see anything wrong with a true 1/6 scale diorama but that will encounter a new set of issues for you that do not exist now at your current scale. Maybe it could be something you offer once a year (as a 1/6 Deluxe Kit/Version) based on what people have been wanting and vote on.

In any event, I'll support your work/builds because they are quality and you have been a pleasure to deal with. Looking forward to see what you decide to do.

 

[HAL9000.]

Well, it's funny you say this. I've seen this forum be very demanding and certain people being down right unreasonable, and I was very afraid of being treated the same, but somehow everyone I've dealt with so far has been much more understanding towards us, like yourself when my father sent you 12x part D instead of 6xC and 6xD. Then again, sometimes I have to make design choices where the reasoning behind it won't be obvious to everyone and there I have lost a few people, who judged instead of asking questions. To them I say, good riddance. As things stand now, I am overwhelmed by the positive support from the community and we will continue to do our best to serve it to the best of our abilities, taking into account as many of their wishes as possible. On some of them, I'll just have to take a chance.

One thing I will add, Joost. Is that if you do decide to go down the Truescale DX path is that you would likely need to take deposits. I've seen many times on here that triggers the idiots. If you take people's money they, both rightly and wrongly, start making demands. I think one of the reasons you've not had much trouble, apart from obviously being an honest and nice guy, is because you show the items almost completed first and keep the time from paying to receiving down to a minimum. I know you've taken money up front for the Throne Room and Corridor, but I think that higher cost items and any delays may cause you hassle.

Existing customers who have your work and understand your process will also trust you. Noobs may be less tolerant.

Perhaps, like the Throne room, you could show a good idea of what you're about to produce first. Or, produce the Detolf-sized version first, having ironed out production kinks, and then take payments and deposits for Truescale on the understanding that little will change - just dimensions like the service corridor.

 

[CrovaxNL]

I wouldn't risk it if I were you because the slope is very slippery indeed. It's so much more work and this isn't even your job! Sticking to one size makes everything a lot more predictable and manageble. I love your enthusiasm but you have to watch out for yourself aswell; it's just you and your dad doing everything. Taking on an extra size will only add more stress I think. Personally, I would love bigger diorama's and I'm fortunate enough that money isn't a big deal for me. (Though space is, for now.... ) But I would hate to see you take on too much for two people to handle and then collapse under the weight of it all. I think the detolf size dio's are the perfect middle ground between, size, aesthetics and cost.
If you really do want to make bigger dio's I would limit them to one every one to two years.

 

[earthdog]

Joost, first of all thank you for taking us on this amazing ride. Your level of openness and communication on projects and plans is exemplary. Your videos and progress reports are fantastic and I've watched them all.

I'm sad to say that I'm not yet a loyal customer of yours but I've followed every project very closely.

The reason I haven't put in an order is that I don't own Detolfs and really don't want them. I'd be much more interested in a True Scale diorama like your first Death Star hall but that was too expensive for me at the time. I debated back and forth but ultimately didn't purchase it. The one extra you had almost put me over the top but I restrained myself.

I ended up pre-ordering a ⅙ Death Star wall from GTP Toys which hasn't arrived yet. It's plastic, not metal, but has lights and is about 27" long. It's just the back wall, no sides, ceiling or floor but I'm ok with that. I may end up fabricating a floor myself but I'm hopeful that it will be decent for the $200 price tag and that it may only need a good repaint and weathering at the most.

For me, the sweet spot is a True Scale at a sub $500 cost. I know that these two seem impossible but on the production side, if it's possible to use thick sheets of styrene instead of metal you may be able to keep materials and shipping costs down. And in some instances, you may have no choice but to use plastics like on the Tantive corridor bits.

Of course as the artist you have every right to say that using plastics instead of metal doesn't align with your vision of providing high quality products and I would 100% respect that.

I just wanted to add my perspective to this excellent conversation.

 

[HAL9000.]

I just wanted to add my perspective to this excellent conversation.

It's such a refreshing change that these Joost/Jazz threads attract intelligent conversation rather than pointless conflict and buffoons.

Really good open discussion.

 

[medicomsucks]

Personally, detolfs are fine for a figure or 2, but when I see people stuff 4 or more figures together it looks like a jumbled mess.

I prefer true scale but I also like the idea of having partial sets that can fit in a detolf, but also stand alone and can be expanded if desired. The cloud city duel scene could maybe work for that, one half for vader, one half for luke, that can be combined or separated for a detolf display.

 

[richarde0]

Joost,

I love both the dioramas I have had from you, the craftmanship is just fantastic.. what you and your dad have managed to do most of us could only dream of doing.

As others have said, I think you are better off sticking to the detolf size, of course if there are one off's that you do like the death star corridor you originally did, then it has to be what you think works for you, not what works for everyone else.

Yes, I know they will be the ones buying it, but you have to make sure that there would be enough demand for all the work and effort that goes into designing and making them, so that you are not stuck with stock and out of pocket.

I wish I had more space myself to get some more of your amazing work (throne room for a start.. especially with jedi luke and the emperor coming out), but I am limited with space... not to say that may change in the future

I will continue to push your work on other threads for your dioramas if people dont know about them

 

[blazelsd]

Joost
Design what makes you happy to design. Build what makes you happy to build. Detolf, truetype, dx..... whatever it is it will be amazing. I have been buying from sideshow since Jedi luke and have over 75 figures. Sadly I have never really displayed any other then Jabba and throne while all the others stayed in thier shippers. When I put together your Death Star all of a sudden I started opening many of them to see how they look in it. Your work is the center of attention when people come over and see what I have displayed. So Thank you for renewing my passion for collecting. You have a fan and a customer for life here.

G

 

[JonEl]

Joost, I love all of the diorama I've bought from you and look forward to more in the future.

I love my large Death Star hallway, but I will say that I initially passed on the first run due to cost, I was able to work out a payment plan with you for one in the later run and was glad I did.
Now the very high cost of it I was able to handle since it was spread out but also since it was the Death Star, what I feel is the most iconic Star Wars background possible. I'm not sure I would be willing to pay that much for any other diorama honestly. I think others as well might be on board in theory on larger diroramas but only for specific sets and it may be an issue getting enough that all want the same one.

I think sticking with detolfs is the way to go honestly, I like the idea of doing say a set that spans two detolfs side by side to extend a scene. Also I think having them able to stand alone is pretty great for those without detolfs(and possibly extend them into a larger display by having multiple side by side).
The idea of making a secondary kit to extend a diorama is a good idea as long as it seems worth the cost of development I'd say.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. I look forward to more of the work you and your pop do.

 

[Tee-Kay]

As much as i'd be blown away by larger dioramas, i find those Detolf size versions very convenient to enhance figures displays but more importantly affordable.

I remember the opportunity i had to pick up one of your last Death Star hallway "XL" dioramas but had to decline as i just couldn't budget it. Sure, i could be tempted by a larger diorama or two in the future but that would definitely be at the expanse of detolf size purchases.

 

[JazzInc]

As much as i'd be blown away by larger dioramas, i find those Detolf size versions very convenient to enhance figures displays but more importantly affordable.

I remember the opportunity i had to pick up one of your last Death Star hallway "XL" dioramas but had to decline as i just couldn't budget it. Sure, i could be tempted by a larger diorama or two in the future but that would definitely be at the expanse of detolf size purchases.

Well, this discussion has been fruitful so far. I have discussed making a first try out for a TrueScale DX dioramas together with an interested collector. He would foot the bill for the prototype if I can refund cost as soon as more people order it. This sounds like a reasonable, honest and attractive construction for both.

Also, I think it is important to state that I will never stop making and designing the detolf sized ones (as long as I make dioramas that is), because I agree that they are the ideal size and price point for most. So, no one needs to be worried that those will disappear in favor of the larger ones.

I also agree with one of the replies here that I should aim for a price point around $500 for the larger ones, maybe just a little bit more but not a lot. Size wise, I want to go for something that fits inside the Ikea besta if at all possible which would make it somewhere between the very large I made last year and the current Detolf ones. Of course, The larger TrueScale DX diorama should also be able to stand on its own for those who don't use the Besta. Again, trying to accommodate as many wishes as possible in the one design

Please keep the discussion going on. Many excellent ideas and feedback so far. Will keep you posted of any developments of course.

 

[Subdomain]

Yes Joost I agree that something between a detolf and the large Death Star dio makes more sense. I think $500-600 for something like that is still way easier for people than $850+. Also size wise it will fit in more collections.