Band of Brothers

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Why not? I happen to have great respect for the veterans of the Second World War, and what they went through. That doesn't mean you can't do a good action movie or even a comedy set in WWII. I can think of several off the top of my head that I quite enjoyed. However, I think that trying to make a live action series with the same gravitas as a serious WWII piece, such as the Band of Brothers miniseries, would just end up feeling contrived.



Yes, let's take this a step further. I am a serving Naval Officer, so I know a thing or two about following, not to mention giving, orders. Would you consider that enough of a "solid foundation"?

For something like Order 66 to work, on that kind of scale, you would need brainwashed soldiers, period. Soldiers follow orders, LEGAL orders. They would not follow an order to kill a superior officer without warning or massacre children, nor would they be expected to.

Let's look closer. Weren't the clones following a "legal" order from the supreme chancellor? Being in the Navy, you understand how a traitor SHOULD be treated in a time of war.

ORDER 66: "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established."
https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66

What about following that order would've been illegal? From anyone's POV outside of the Jedi, it would've been seen with Mace's intentions being traitorous as he took the law into his own hands vs. utilizing the proper procedures regardless of Palpatine's intentions.

And just so we're on the same page, would you consider the hundred eighty thousand men who stormed the beaches of France, knowingly to their death, brainwashed? They followed orders that present day troops would consider immoral. And all due respect, but a naval mindset is quite different from that of boots on the ground infantry.

EDIT: Additionally, looking to Band of Brothers for inspiration or a suggestion of how to do it properly wouldn't be disrespectful in the least. I still don't see how you guys are pulling that one out of your pieholes.
 
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This thread is the perfect example of why we need thread ratings back.

Derailed.

insert stinky emoticon.

How is it derailed? With a sideorder of Order 66, we're still debating the apparent ":rolleyes: moral dilemma :rolleyes:" that is comparing Star Wars Clone stories to Band of Brothers. It's still very much on topic, for now at least.
 
Let's look closer. Weren't the clones following a "legal" order from the supreme chancellor? Being in the Navy, you understand how a traitor SHOULD be treated in a time of war.

Yes, I do. We certainly do not conduct summary executions in the field anymore.

All I'm saying is that despite the fact that while we, as service men and women, do in fact obey orders, we do not do so blindly. We are taught the difference between legal and illegal orders. The Law of Armed Conflict, the Hague, the Geneva Conventions - these are all international laws that transcend political boundaries. Even if a country's leader "makes it legal" (didn't the Emperor say that at one point in the prequels?) that doesn't make it legal and certainly not moral.

Besides, an order on the scale of Order 66 would simply not work in real life, unless you were able to brainwash your soldiers from birth, which is the case with the Clones. Order 66 was a massive STRATEGIC undertaking from within the political structure of the Republic. When you talk about following orders without question, what you're talking about are TACTICAL and (for officers only) OPERATIONAL levels of warfare. Most soldiers on the ground are not meant to receive strategic orders of that magnitude, period, and would not even know how to react.

Could you imagine a soldier or even an officer at the Colonel or Lt. Col. level receiving a phone call directly from the President, completely bypassing the chain of command, ordering him or her to summarily execute his generals? Even soldiers, who are trained to obey orders, think for themselves. This is what I keep trying to tell you.

And just so we're on the same page, would you consider the hundred eighty thousand men who stormed the beaches of France, knowingly to their death, brainwashed? They followed orders that present day troops would consider immoral. And all due respect, but a naval mindset is quite different from that of boots on the ground infantry.

You're missing the point entirely, and your logic is flawed. I do not know a single person in the army, navy or air force who would have considered Operation Overlord immoral, as you seem to think, so I don't know what to make of your argument. You insist on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about, despite my own extensive military experience and your apparent lack of any. You don't seem to have any idea of what a naval or army "mindset" is and I'm wondering, outside of Star Wars, what you're basing your conclusions on.

Don't get me wrong, you seem to have a great deal of respect for the men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I think you're missing my point. For EVERY Clone to follow Order 66 without question or hesitation would have required a fairly significant amount of conditioning (or "brainwashing" if you want), above and beyond what soldiers today are trained for. Real people would have questioned. Real soldiers tend to bond with their leaders in the field, rather than follow their political leaders far away. That's why Palpatine needed Clones.
 
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How is it derailed? With a sideorder of Order 66, we're still debating the apparent ":rolleyes: moral dilemma :rolleyes:" that is comparing Star Wars Clone stories to Band of Brothers. It's still very much on topic, for now at least.

I agreed with the original idea of making a more "serious" series of clone stories as well, but then the whole "Band of Brothers" and trying to legitimize "Order 66" issue managed to flip over several boxcars... ;)

With all due respect, my friend, you would be hardpressed to find "one" American soldier today that would consider the Normandy beach landings on D-Day as "immoral".

But to get back on track, I WISH that the prequels had been more serious throughout. If Lucas had raised the targeted age-level to at least in the early teens, we would have gotten a considerably better trilogy. But instead he provided us with a ton of stale jokes, lines and forced acting. I agree with you that the clones would be the perfect way to run with a more seriously themed format.
 
I agreed with the original idea of making a more "serious" series of clone stories as well, but then the whole "Band of Brothers" and trying to legitimize "Order 66" issue managed to flip over several boxcars... ;)

With all due respect, my friend, you would be hardpressed to find "one" American soldier today that would consider the Normandy beach landings on D-Day as "immoral".

But to get back on track, I WISH that the prequels had been more serious throughout. If Lucas had raised the targeted age-level to at least in the early teens, we would have gotten a considerably better trilogy. But instead he provided us with a ton of stale jokes, lines and forced acting. I agree with you that the clones would be the perfect way to run with a more seriously themed format.

I agree.

I wanted to mention earlier that the actual Band of Brothers book by Stephen Ambrose has a somewhat more light-hearted feel to it than the mini-series, which has a sort of Saving Private Ryan-ish gravitas. Probably due to Ambrose's incredibly accessible writing style. At any rate, something like that, but with the SW Clones, might be pretty good, although maybe that's already been done. I haven't read SW fiction in a long, long time.

Personally, as far as the prequels go, they could have started the trilogy at the end of Episode II and stretched out Anakin's fall over three movies. That would have made the whole series a lot more watchable. I tend to watch the OT as one movie, but I'm happy to just watch Revenge of the Sith only when it comes to the prequels. I'm glad that's sort of happening with the Clone Wars series and all that, but it's a shame all that screen time in the movies was wasted on 10-year-old Anakin and long, drawn out political deliberation in Episode II... Clone Wars action was the way to go from day one, at least in hindsight...
 
You're missing the point entirely, and your logic is flawed. I do not know a single person in the army, navy or air force who would have considered Operation Overlord immoral, as you seem to think, so I don't know what to make of your argument. You insist on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about, despite my own extensive military experience and your apparent lack of any. You don't seem to have any idea of what a naval or army "mindset" is and I'm wondering, outside of Star Wars, what you're basing your conclusions on.

HA! Well that's a-typical. And you're right. Maybe I should get some military experience under my belt before being allowed to comment on anything military. Have the number for a good recruiter? :p

I wasn't referring to the operation overall as immoral. Nice play on words though. That was a clever twist of my statement. I was referring to a direct order from a CO to charge across over 100 meters across level ground to attack embedded machine gun nests that are not only heavily fortified but have the high ground. Many of the regulars I've spoken with would consider such an order, an order of suicide and thus immoral.

Don't get me wrong, you seem to have a great deal of respect for the men and women who serve in the armed forces, but I think you're missing my point. For EVERY Clone to follow Order 66 without question or hesitation would have required a fairly significant amount of conditioning (or "brainwashing" if you want), above and beyond what soldiers today are trained for. Real people would have questioned. Real soldiers tend to bond with their leaders in the field, rather than follow their political leaders far away. That's why Palpatine needed Clones.

Personally, if I received an order, a legal order at that, directly from the President of the United States, our Commander in Chief (there are daily codewords in place to verify who such an order is coming from and the validity of said order), to "retire" my CO because he was directly involved in a massive plot to assassinate our president, Commander in Chief, while I might be heartbroken on any level, that order would be carried out and then grieving way-sided until I could properly investigate the circumstances. It's not being brainwashed at all, but moreso, understanding the nature of an order like that and the importance of who it was coming from.

Edit:
I agreed with the original idea of making a more "serious" series of clone stories as well, but then the whole "Band of Brothers" and trying to legitimize "Order 66" issue managed to flip over several boxcars... ;)

Did you watch the YouTube vid at the beginning? This situation was initiated with people taking offense to comparing Star Wars, on any level, to Band of Brothers. I would agree with you 100% if this weren't a Star Wars thread in the Star Wars forum and perhaps in the Military forum. But with this thread's current address, no.
 
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HA! Well that's a-typical. And you're right. Maybe I should get some military experience under my belt before being allowed to comment on anything military. Have the number for a good recruiter? :p

If you're going to comment on how/why REAL soldiers give/receive/follow orders, rather than just Clone Troopers, yes, you should.
 
I wasn't referring to the operation overall as immoral. Nice play on words though. That was a clever twist of my statement. I was referring to a direct order from a CO to charge across over 100 meters across level ground to attack embedded machine gun nests that are not only heavily fortified but have the high ground. Many of the regulars I've spoken with would consider such an order, an order of suicide and thus immoral.

If that's what you meant than you should have said so. You didn't, so no "clever twist" was needed. :cool:

EDIT: Oh, and merry Christmas!
 
If that's what you meant than you should have said so. You didn't, so no "clever twist" was needed. :cool:

EDIT: Oh, and merry Christmas!

I don't recall referencing Operation: Overlord by name at all, merely mentioning the circumstances of the storming of a beach in France under suicidal conditions. Perhaps I should've tapped it out in Morris to make it more clear? :p Or did they stop teaching that at NPS?

If you're going to comment on how/why REAL soldiers give/receive/follow orders, rather than just Clone Troopers, yes, you should.

So do you think they'll accept a certifiable reenlister who's shrunk an inch and suffers from chronic ankle pain due to too much jumptime? :D
 
I don't recall referencing Operation: Overlord by name at all, merely mentioning the circumstances of the storming of a beach in France under suicidal conditions. Perhaps I should've tapped it out in Morris to make it more clear? :p Or did they stop teaching that at NPS?

Well, consider again what you wrote:

And just so we're on the same page, would you consider the hundred eighty thousand men who stormed the beaches of France, knowingly to their death, brainwashed? They followed orders that present day troops would consider immoral.

It seems quite reasonable to me that you were speaking about Op Overlord here. I can't think of any other examples in history where any similar number of people stormed the beaches of France, at least not off the top of my head. If you wanted to make a clear point speak/write clearly.

And it's called Morse, by the way.

So do you think they'll accept a certifiable reenlister who's shrunk an inch and suffers from chronic ankle pain due to too much jumptime?

My apologies if that is actually the case. No offense, but you certainly didn't give the impression that you were speaking with any actual experience in the matter.

Personally I think this whole argument is ridiculous. History has proven time and time again that real soldiers develop a much stronger sense of loyalty to their field commanders rather than political leaders back home. Order 66 would never work in real life because real soldiers aren't "brainwashed", but Clones essentially were, due to genetic programming and training from birth, which was well established in Episode II. Unless you start using a better line of reasoning, I seriously doubt you're going to convince me otherwise.

If you've got nothing more substantial to say, please move on, as I suspect this tangent we've gone off on has gotten annoying to everyone else.
 
My apologies if that is actually the case. No offense, but you certainly didn't give the impression that you were speaking with any actual experience in the matter.

I prefer not to throw personal experience the face of other posters in a desperate and disrespectful attempt to discredit anything they say. It comes off less like a person with something to say and more like an arrogant snob with a superiority complex. But yes, in many a drunken ports, I've laid out my fair share of sailors over similar arguments and false senses of egotistical superiority. :p

Additionally, I spoke to several former teammates over the Holiday and they didn't like the aspect but agreed with me that they'd carry it out as well. So I guess it's an entirely different story if you've every actually received orders directly from the president. When that happens, get back to me.

Anyway, back on topic. I really do think if they used Band of Brothers as a model, they really could make an excellent movie based in the Star Wars universe from the POV of the Clones.
 
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I prefer not to throw personal experience the face of other posters in a desperate and disrespectful attempt to discredit anything they say. It comes off less like a person with something to say and more like an arrogant snob with a superiority complex. But yes, in many a drunken ports, I've laid out my fair share of sailors over similar arguments and false senses of egotistical superiority. :p

I'd just like to point out that you accused me of speaking "from standpoint of ignorance than any solid foundation" (your exact words). I felt the need to indicate that was not the case.

Despite your claims to the contrary, judging by your sense of grammar and spelling, flawed reasoning and tendency to toss insults around, I still feel like I'm arguing with a 14-year-old boy here, so I'm going to move on now...
 
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I'd just like to point out that you accused me of speaking "from standpoint of ignorance than any solid foundation" (your exact words). I felt the need to indicate that was not the case.

Despite your claims to the contrary, judging by your sense of grammar and spelling, flawed reasoning and tendency to toss insults around, I still feel like I'm arguing with a 14-year-old boy here, so I'm going to move on now...

I guess that would've been more hurtful coming from an actual serviceman vs. someone who considers themselves a "naval officer" because they're captain of their own tugboat. :rotfl
 
I guess that would've been more hurtful coming from an actual serviceman vs. someone who considers themselves a "naval officer" because they're captain of their own tugboat. :rotfl

I think you just proved my point. Well played, well played.
 
Being a bit of a "Hybrid" myself. I never tire of the on going struggle between "ground" and "naval" service members.

Back to the original topic. I think a clones POV movie/show done band of brothers style would be awesome. Order 66 was just the climax. There was still 3 years of fighting that went on before that. A similar amount of time from the American envolvement till V-E day. Told from a clones view point there could be thousands of stories from hundreds of worlds, that have nothing to do with Order 66.

And as far as the issue of Order 66 goes. I am sure that a few clone units did think twice about executing the order.
 
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