Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[Henry Morgan*]

haha thats funny.... I must do another playthrough as Kojima

some mods are really creepy ...

 

[potato]

Just realize Ocelot is the son of The Boss, now i'm just wondering why being The Boss's son, and following Big Boss for so long, that he still ends up being the sidekick of Big Boss's cloned Son Liquid, and then later either "possessed", or acting like he's possessed by Liquid.

I mean by right, The Boss's son should be at least on par with Big Boss's son, if not better, since he should also carry some of his father "The Sorrows" ESP.

I guess they wrote the MGS script before they realize they could have came up with a better backstory for ocelot?

 

[pturtle]

I don't get people trying to "separate" MGS from anime tropes. The stylistic action, the treatment of technology, the melodrama, the Eastern references, the whole "young generation fights against the problems caused by the previous generation", it's VERY Japanese in tone as an action series with an American re-skin and backdrop. Which isn't bad if you love anime as much as I do, but the notion of separating MGS from any concept of "anime" sounds a bit misguided. Sorry but Kojima's brand of childish humor =/= "anime". Childish humor may be prevalent in mainstream anime but that doesn't mean that there aren't any anime out there that deal with mature topics.

Heck if it weren't for MGS's "anime" direction, we wouldn't have gotten the fantastic ending of MGS2 which felt very in-line with a lot of anime that deal with existential topics.

On the other side of the argument though, I don't mind Kojima injecting some humor in TPP given its open-world format. I simply hope that he doesn't insert them when serious stuff is happening in the story that's related to BB's revenge, that's when it REALLY gets awkward.

I have no problem with anime, I grew up on most of the mainstream stuff but never seen any of the mature anime stuff you’re talking about so you’re probably right. But everything from the focus of facial capture, voice acting delivery, and art direction it seems to me Kojima is trying to step away from the animeish look and feel of the older games to makes something more Naughty Dog like, at least thats how it seems to me.

I love the older games, I would even be shocked if TPP turns out to be better than most of them, but with the Fox Engine, Kojima is definitely trying to give a live action cinematic feel to the series, of course some of the anime stuff is coming back, and I’m happy it is, but it does feel like a transitioning into something more cinematic.

 

[ronri]

But everything from the focus of facial capture, voice acting delivery, and art direction it seems to me Kojima is trying to step away from the animeish look and feel of the older games to makes something more Naughty Dog like, at least thats how it seems to me.

I love the older games, I would even be shocked if TPP turns out to be better than most of them, but with the Fox Engine, Kojima is definitely trying to give a live action cinematic feel to the series, of course some of the anime stuff is coming back, and I’m happy it is, but it does feel like a transitioning into something more cinematic.

Well to be fair, it's not really surprising since Kojima seems heavily influenced by live-action TV shows like Breaking Bad. I'll have to disagree with the art direction though. Aside from Big Boss's cybernetic arm the comparison made to a "demon" is probably a reference to the original working title "ogre" or in literal Japanese, an "oni". The purposeful visual framing of Big Boss being a literal "oni" still carries a heavy Japanese influence that feels very much like something from an anime than anything else.

Heck even Skull Face falls under the more absurd, being a near-dead scarred villain combined with an outrageously cowboy motif and all (he's called Skull-Face for crying out loud). Not to mention, we're also getting stuff like Quiet or even the undead ninja soldiers and the hospital hallucinations like Flaming Volgin riding on a flaming unicorn.

This isn't to say that I'm down-playing TPP, rather it still holds a lot of the quirky aspects from past MGS that hold a very Japanese anime tone to them.

I have no problem with anime, I grew up on most of the mainstream stuff but never seen any of the mature anime stuff you’re talking about so you’re probably right.

I'll admit that some mainstream anime can really present a different picture of the medium, hence the stigma, but there's some really great stuff out there that you've been missing out on.

Some of the classic stuff in the sci-fi genre that come into mind are cyber-centric Ghost In The Shell, and the space-western/chinese-noir styled Cowboy Bebop. Even seemingly colorful shows like Neon Genesis Evangelion and Revolutionary Girl Utena tackle a lot of mature themes to do with psychological angst, social alienation, peer pressure etc. As for modern ones, in terms of the fantasy/supernatural department, Kara no Kyoukai and Shinsekai Yori are pretty great as well; the former being a spiritual exploration of human taboos and the latter being focused on a utopian society built upon years of oppression.

Even what is arguably Studio Ghibli's most critically-acclaimed film Princess Mononoke tackles themes of the marginalized lower class in correlation with the wrath of mother nature. It was surprisingly casual in its depiction of violence too, and this is the studio that's commonly described as "Japan's Disney" (as ignorantly awkward as that sounds). Needless to say, just like with every entertainment medium out there, you have to wade through the 90% garbage just to find the gems.

 

[pturtle]

I don't get people trying to "separate" MGS from anime tropes. The stylistic action, the treatment of technology, the melodrama, the Eastern references, the whole "young generation fights against the problems caused by the previous generation", it's VERY Japanese in tone as an action series with an American re-skin and backdrop. Which isn't bad if you love anime as much as I do, but the notion of separating MGS from any concept of "anime" sounds a bit misguided. Sorry but Kojima's brand of childish humor =/= "anime". Childish humor may be prevalent in mainstream anime but that doesn't mean that there aren't any anime out there that deal with mature topics.

Heck if it weren't for MGS's "anime" direction, we wouldn't have gotten the fantastic ending of MGS2 which felt very in-line with a lot of anime that deal with existential topics.

On the other side of the argument though, I don't mind Kojima injecting some humor in TPP given its open-world format. I simply hope that he doesn't insert them when serious stuff is happening in the story that's related to BB's revenge, that's when it REALLY gets awkward.

Well to be fair, it's not really surprising since Kojima seems heavily influenced by live-action TV shows like Breaking Bad. I'll have to disagree with the art direction though. Aside from Big Boss's cybernetic arm the comparison made to a "demon" is probably a reference to the original working title "ogre" or in literal Japanese, an "oni". The purposeful visual framing of Big Boss being a literal "oni" still carries a heavy Japanese influence that feels very much like something from an anime than anything else.

Heck even Skull Face falls under the more absurd, being a near-dead scarred villain combined with an outrageously cowboy motif and all (he's called Skull-Face for crying out loud). Not to mention, we're also getting stuff like Quiet or even the undead ninja soldiers and the hospital hallucinations like Flaming Volgin riding on a flaming unicorn.

This isn't to say that I'm down-playing TPP, rather it still holds a lot of the quirky aspects from past MGS that hold a very Japanese anime tone to them.


I'll admit that some mainstream anime can really present a different picture of the medium, hence the stigma, but there's some really great stuff out there that you've been missing out on. Some of the classic "mature" stuff in the sci-fi genre that come into mind are Ghost In The Shell, as well as Cowboy Bebop. Even seemingly colorful shows like Neon Genesis Evangelion and Revolutionary Girl Utena tackle a lot of mature themes. As for modern ones, in terms of the fantasy/supernatural department, Kara no Kyoukai and Shinsekai Yori are pretty great as well

You know what, I actually for some reason totally forgot about Skull Face, Big Boss’ horns, Quiet’s powers etc… You’ve changed my mind

MGSV just has more of an overall darker tone I guess, but still fits perfectly in line with the rest of the games in the series, its just taking advantage of current technology which kind of made me feel it was going in a different direction.

I’ll actually try and catch those movies you recommended, are any of them on Netflix?

 

[ronri]

You know what, I actually for some reason totally forgot about Skull Face, Big Boss’ horns, Quiet’s powers etc… You’ve changed my mind

MGSV just has more of an overall darker tone I guess, but still fits perfectly in line with the rest of the games in the series, its just taking advantage of current technology which kind of made me feel it was going in a different direction.

Yup, I agree it definitely feels like he's going for a darker direction, I just hope he doesn't trip up in the process of trying to mix up the humor with the mature themes (the clear saving grace being that gameplay-wise, Kojima often always delivers).

I’ll actually try and catch those movies you recommended, are any of them on Netflix?

I'll admit that I wouldn't really be sure which one to recommend as each work can differ tonally and it can really depend on which one strikes your preferences.

That said, unfortunately I'm not so sure if they're on there (especially since some of the ones I mentioned are more niche). If there's a gateway anime I can easily recommend in terms of mixing Eastern and Western influence, while maintaining both the fun and serious of anime, Cowboy Bebop is good (it's 25 episodes long if I recall, most of which consist of self-contained stories with a recurring cast).

 

[pturtle]

Yup, I agree it definitely feels like he's going for a darker direction, I just hope he doesn't trip up in the process of trying to mix up the humor with the mature themes (the clear saving grace being that gameplay-wise, Kojima often always delivers).


I'll admit that I wouldn't really be sure which one to recommend as each work can differ tonally and it can really depend on which one strikes your preferences.

That said, unfortunately I'm not so sure if they're on there (especially since some of the ones I mentioned are more niche). If there's a gateway anime I can easily recommend in terms of mixing Eastern and Western influence, while maintaining both the fun and serious of anime, Cowboy Bebop is good (it's 25 episodes long if I recall, most of which consist of self-contained stories with a recurring cast).

Okay great, looks like I got a new show to watch this month.

 

[Jameson Rook]

Just realize Ocelot is the son of The Boss, now i'm just wondering why being The Boss's son, and following Big Boss for so long, that he still ends up being the sidekick of Big Boss's cloned Son Liquid, and then later either "possessed", or acting like he's possessed by Liquid.

I mean by right, The Boss's son should be at least on par with Big Boss's son, if not better, since he should also carry some of his father "The Sorrows" ESP.

I guess they wrote the MGS script before they realize they could have came up with a better backstory for ocelot?

Ocleot is the son of The Sorrow and The Boss, not a clone. Children don't necessarily carry all their parents' traits. It would be perfectly acceptable if Ocelot grew up to be a 60's hippie if he wanted to.

 

[GasparZizou]

Just realize Ocelot is the son of The Boss, now i'm just wondering why being The Boss's son, and following Big Boss for so long, that he still ends up being the sidekick of Big Boss's cloned Son Liquid, and then later either "possessed", or acting like he's possessed by Liquid.

I mean by right, The Boss's son should be at least on par with Big Boss's son, if not better, since he should also carry some of his father "The Sorrows" ESP.

I guess they wrote the MGS script before they realize they could have came up with a better backstory for ocelot?

I don't think you're familiar with Ocelot at all

 

[Von Koz]

I have no problems with Anime tropes. Heaven knows MGS1 was full of them. My problem is when they break the immersion. The cardboard box for instance. In MGS1 it was actually a plausible tactic. Now you have soldiers literally fooled by a cardboard cutout of a bikini clad chick on a box. Thats just ******** fan service. You can't pretend you're making a dark serious game about the nature of war and human condition one second, then have a female sniper wearing nylon stockings and a bikini the next. It's breaks the immersion. Small doses done the right way can come off as cool, even clever. I enjoyed the Psycho mantis "puzzle" with the second control port even though it broke the 4th wall. It still worked tonally with the game. This new stuff so far is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Also... that dog is wearing a friggin eye patch.

Also I got MGS:GZ for 20 and I feel like the content within is well worth that price. Should have shipped for that amount day one.

 

[Jameson Rook]

Actually, I did managed to sneak around an exam hall in college in a carboard box so I can attest that it indeed works.

 

[FSLAR]

Actually, I did managed to sneak around an exam hall in college in a carboard box so I can attest that it indeed works.

I saw a guy do that at an anime convention as Solid Snake to avoid the con security due to him witnessing (first hearing) two employees having sex, allegedly. Guess he triggered an alarm, and then game over since he got banned.

 

[potato]

I don't think you're familiar with Ocelot at all

he's good at playing triple agents & enjoys torturing other men, he is skilled pistol fighter & very cunning, but other than that i don't think he's anything close to Big Boss, don't forget Boss is still better than Big Boss, so by right Ocelot should have the potential to be equal or better than Big Boss, but of course he didn't get to train under the Boss, but surely by following Big Boss you'd though he'd have picked up a few tricks, or maybe he was too old by then?

Solid & Liquid are enhanced version of Big Boss, but Big Boss is still a normal human, compared to The Boss's unique family background. The Boss achieved what Big Boss managed but 20 years earlier. And if it weren't for the Handkerchief, no way Big Boss (then Naked Snake) could have beaten The Boss.

 

[pturtle]

I have no problems with Anime tropes. Heaven knows MGS1 was full of them. My problem is when they break the immersion. The cardboard box for instance. In MGS1 it was actually a plausible tactic. Now you have soldiers literally fooled by a cardboard cutout of a bikini clad chick on a box. Thats just ******** fan service. You can't pretend you're making a dark serious game about the nature of war and human condition one second, then have a female sniper wearing nylon stockings and a bikini the next. It's breaks the immersion. Small doses done the right way can come off as cool, even clever. I enjoyed the Psycho mantis "puzzle" with the second control port even though it broke the 4th wall. It still worked tonally with the game. This new stuff so far is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Also... that dog is wearing a friggin eye patch.

Also I got MGS:GZ for 20 and I feel like the content within is well worth that price. Should have shipped for that amount day one.

Yea, I’m not too fond of all the box features Kojima put in considering the supposed tone of the game, but like Gasper mentioned before, we don’t have to use those features so I can totally ignore it, at least for my first play through.

 

[GasparZizou]

he's good at playing triple agents & enjoys torturing other men, he is skilled pistol fighter & very cunning, but other than that i don't think he's anything close to Big Boss, don't forget Boss is still better than Big Boss, so by right Ocelot should have the potential to be equal or better than Big Boss, but of course he didn't get to train under the Boss, but surely by following Big Boss you'd though he'd have picked up a few tricks, or maybe he was too old by then?

Solid & Liquid are enhanced version of Big Boss, but Big Boss is still a normal human, compared to The Boss's unique family background. The Boss achieved what Big Boss managed but 20 years earlier. And if it weren't for the Handkerchief, no way Big Boss (then Naked Snake) could have beaten The Boss.

You read up, that's cool, at least you changed a few words so it wasn't a verbatim copy/paste of the wikia

Still seems you're not familiar with Ocelot, since your post explains why he was Liquid's sidekick in MGS1 and faux proxy in MGS4.

Why would you want Ocelot to be on equal ground with BB? He never was to begin with, yet he's a few steps below and that's fine and suitable for his character.

 

[potato]

You read up, that's cool, at least you changed a few words so it wasn't a verbatim copy/paste of the wikia

Still seems you're not familiar with Ocelot, since your post explains why he was Liquid's sidekick in MGS1 and faux proxy in MGS4.

Why would you want Ocelot to be on equal ground with BB? He never was to begin with, yet he's a few steps below and that's fine and suitable for his character.

I didn't read up anything on Ocelot, I played MGS1 many times & MGS2 even more times, only MGS3 & 4 i played once, and PW i kinda skipped most of the boring conversations.

I knew Ocelot was double agent in 1, triple in 3, the rest is pretty straight forward you can't miss it unless you had other people play the button smashing parts for you... IMO that MGS1 torturing part was one of the hardest smashing scene even on higher difficulties.

You underestimated my insights on the series, i'm just not very good with Big Boss's storyline coz i find it boring like watching a 60's flick. And who doesn't know most of the story post MGS2 was just fillers to keep the series going. It's different from some stories where the writer actually though about the prequels when he wrote the "sequels". You'd never know The End might be blood related to Big Boss.

 

[potato]

You read up, that's cool, at least you changed a few words so it wasn't a verbatim copy/paste of the wikia

Still seems you're not familiar with Ocelot, since your post explains why he was Liquid's sidekick in MGS1 and faux proxy in MGS4.

Why would you want Ocelot to be on equal ground with BB? He never was to begin with, yet he's a few steps below and that's fine and suitable for his character.

He followed Liquid simply because he followed Big Boss, and Liquid being the clone & new leader he just followed suit, i believe his loyalty was still with Big Boss faction despite being a triple agent, which rooted from MGS3. What i'm asking is why with the kind of blood that flows within him, he couldn't be anything close to Big Boss despite following him for many years, and can't even come close to Liquid. Maybe simply because Kojima never though about Ocelot's past until they decide to make MGS3 which by that time was already too late to make Ocelot a better character?

 

[Jameson Rook]

Dude, please stop double/triple posting. It's not cool and you know it.

 

[Solidus]

 

[GasparZizou]

I didn't read up anything on Ocelot, I played MGS1 many times & MGS2 even more times, only MGS3 & 4 i played once, and PW i kinda skipped most of the boring conversations.

I knew Ocelot was double agent in 1, triple in 3, the rest is pretty straight forward you can't miss it unless you had other people play the button smashing parts for you... IMO that MGS1 torturing part was one of the hardest smashing scene even on higher difficulties.

You underestimated my insights on the series, i'm just not very good with Big Boss's storyline coz i find it boring like watching a 60's flick. And who doesn't know most of the story post MGS2 was just fillers to keep the series going. It's different from some stories where the writer actually though about the prequels when he wrote the "sequels". You'd never know The End might be blood related to Big Boss.

You underestimated my insights on the series

I did? Cause it looks like you're bouncing aimlessly from one cluster of data to another.

He followed Liquid simply because he followed Big Boss, and Liquid being the clone & new leader he just followed suit

So that's what really happened, huh? I need to play MGS1 again.

i believe his loyalty was still with Big Boss faction despite being a triple agent, which rooted from MGS3. What i'm asking is why with the kind of blood that flows within him, he couldn't be anything close to Big Boss despite following him for many years, and can't even come close to Liquid. Maybe simply because Kojima never though about Ocelot's past until they decide to make MGS3 which by that time was already too late to make Ocelot a better character?

Or maybe cause that's what the entire series is about?
Seriously, since MGS1 they smash that on your face several times by the end.

A little perspicacity from you wouldn't hurt, Kojima sure has some questionable writing hiccups in this franchise, but what you mentioned isn't one, Ocelot isn't a bad character at all.