DC Joker Movie (Non-DCEU)

[YoNoSe]

Superior level of drama and war foh yeeewwwwww!

 

[Wor-Gar]

I blame the 80's.

Totally 80's fault... for clearly using up every good idea ever thought of.

 

[Khev]

Superior level of drama and war foh yeeewwwwww!

Lol.

Remember when Harvey Keitel learned that Tim Roth had betrayed everyone so he blew him away at the end of Reservoir Dogs? That's what Bane should have done to Talia.

In her little "the knife that cuts deepest" speech she should have referenced her night with Bruce and then as she is about to stab him suddenly gets lifted off the ground, screams, Bane snaps her neck. He then casually re-attaches his breathing apparatus (to reveal that he'd been faking weakness as a test of Talia's character) and orders two of his men to hold Bruce so that he can burn with his city.

Bane leaves in the truck, Selina blows away the two goons, the chase plays out largely the same but with Bruce dying in the blast, no Italy. Bane dies a badass (not like Talia, he can just get crushed when the truck crashes to the street), Bruce is "free" of Batman, the trilogy goes out with a bang (literally.)

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Lol.

Remember when Harvey Keitel learned that Tim Roth had betrayed everyone so he blew him away at the end of Reservoir Dogs? That's what Bane should have done to Talia.

In her little "the knife that cuts deepest" speech she should have referenced her night with Bruce and then as she is about to stab him suddenly gets lifted off the ground, screams, Bane snaps her neck. He then casually re-attaches his breathing apparatus (to reveal that he'd been faking weakness as a test of Talia's character) and orders two of his men to hold Bruce so that he can burn with his city.

Bane leaves in the truck, Selina blows away the two goons, the chase plays out largely the same but with Bruce dying in the blast, no Italy. Bane dies a badass (not like Talia, he can just get crushed when the truck crashes to the street), Bruce is "free" of Batman, the trilogy goes out with a bang (literally.)

But Bruce in Italy is him moving on, being free and finally not a traumatized 10 year old boy in a 40 year old body like every other Batman. That's the ultimate victory for a character like Bruce. I do like the Bane idea tho. Although, Bane leaving Batman with two goons is a typical movi cliche where the main villain leaves the hero alive and leaves the place assuming everything will go according to plan. It's like they've never seen a James Bond movie. Even the first John Wick did that. I like that as soon as Talia made the clich? villain thing of walking away and leaving Batman alive, Bane went for the kill immediately and said, "You'll just have to imagine the fire."

 

[abake]

I think it's a bizarre situation we have here where, by so many people's accounts, they've made a movie about The Joker that is too realistic for Batman to exist in the same world.

Part of me thinks....well what was the point of that then?

Lex Luthor without Superman. Clarence Boddicker without Robocop. Shredder without Splinter and the Turtles. All un-super villains whose enemies (the heroes) are fantastical in nature.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have made an origin movie dedicated to the character - I just question why you would go with a tone that actually seems to preclude the primary character of that franchise from being depicted in the same universe.

I still haven't seen it, I'm just going on what I've read.

Personally, I don't think it's too "realistic" for Batman to be featured in it. I think both Bale's and Affleck's Batman characterisations could work within this Joker's world... neither of them has any tech or powers that are beyond what is possible or that goes into Sci-Fi/Fantasy territory, and both are portrayed in a realistic manner, with their own set of problems and traumas. The question is, do people want to see a Batman in such a bleakly realistic world?

It's interesting that audiences embrace this grim movie about the Joker, but were put off by a grim movie about Superman and Batman (perceived film-making quality notwithstanding).

At any rate, I'm not sure I would be keen to see another movie with Phoenix's Joker. I think this movie works perfectly as a stand alone and to reprise this Joker would lessen this character.

 

[Khev]

But Bruce in Italy is him moving on, being free and finally not a traumatized 10 year old boy in a 40 year old body like every other Batman. That's the ultimate victory for a character like Bruce. I do like the Bane idea tho. Although, Bane leaving Batman with two goons is a typical movi cliche where the main villain leaves the hero alive and leaves the place assuming everything will go according to plan. It's like they've never seen a James Bond movie. Even the first John Wick did that. I like that as soon as Talia made the clich? villain thing of walking away and leaving Batman alive, Bane went for the kill immediately and said, "You'll just have to imagine the fire."

Yes I was just aiming for some relatively simple tweaks that would keep the flow of the finale largely the same without rewriting the ending from the ground up. Since Talia did the "James Bond leaves hero to die" thing I figured they could just have Bane do that instead and cut out all the weeping and horribly acted deaths. And Bruce dying *would* have made him different than every other Batman. No need for him to run off the Italy while the freed criminals burn the city to the ground.

As it stands Logan and EG IM have now forever trumped any sacrifices made by Bale's Bruce Wayne.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Yes I was just aiming for some relatively simple tweaks that would keep the flow of the finale largely the same without rewriting the ending from the ground up. Since Talia did the "James Bond leaves hero to die" thing I figured they could just have Bane do that instead and cut out all the weeping and horribly acted deaths. And Bruce dying *would* have made him different than every other Batman. No need for him to run off the Italy while the freed criminals burn the city to the ground.
.

Bruce moving on from Batman and overcoming his childhood trauma already made him different than any other Batman. Bruce was smart enough to find a way to win without dying. That's what makes him Batman. Very faithful to the comic source. He always has a contingency plan.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Certain tones fit certain characters. Obviously this dreary tone of Joker suits him. But I don't think a grim tone is good for, say, Superman any more than it would be good for Indiana Jones. But Batman, yes, grim could work, of course.

I think Gotham City could works best if it were portrayed really dark, dismal and gritty. Even its fantasy elements come from a very dark place.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

In Joker, Gotham doesn't even look like Gotham. It just looks like New York, which is perfect for that film. I guess the same can be said about TDK looking like Chicago tho. I do like the idea of Gotham looking like its own city like in the Burton movies or the Arkham games. I like the gothic look and fantasy elements of that world, so I hope The Batman film goes in that direction. Ii don't mind two different cinematic Batman universes, one real world NY and another that's full comic book/video game. Just don't mix the two.

 

[Khev]

Bruce moving on from Batman and overcoming his childhood trauma already made him different than any other Batman.

Okay so we agree that Italy was totally unnecessary to make him "different" from other Batmans.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Okay so we agree that Italy was totally unnecessary to make him "different" from other Batmans.

Well, it makes a great gif. Plus it made an old man happy, down to wearing the same outfit from Alfred's little dream fantasy. How did Bruce know those details? Because he's BATMAN!!

Tony gets to live as a hologram and Cap as Joe Bidden.

 

[Wor-Gar]

In Joker, Gotham doesn't even look like Gotham. It just looks like New York, which is perfect for that film. I guess the same can be said about TDK looking like Chicago tho. I do like the idea of Gotham looking like its own city like in the Burton movies or the Arkham games. I like the gothic look and fantasy elements of that world, so I hope The Batman film goes in that direction. Ii don't mind two different cinematic Batman universes, one real world NY and another that's full comic book/video game. Just don't mix the two.

I agree with all.

I would like to see a very grim Batman but in a more stylized city... dark, oppressive... it would also justify Batman more; the more the world is stylized, the more you accept a man dressing up in costume to fight crime.

One of Nolan's mistakes was making it so average-day real that the Batsuit seemed 'silly' and out of place and, worse, impractical. You sit there thinking: lose the cape and get full tactical armor going. In a more Gothic stylized world, then a more stylized "outfit" starts to make sense. It is a tricky balance for sure.

 

[Khev]

"So did something go wrong or did something go right? Do you want to tell me about your son's dealings with Ukraine?"

"No. No, I don't think I will..."

 

[Khev]

I agree with all.

I would like to see a very grim Batman but in a more stylized city... dark, oppressive... it would also justify Batman more; the more the world is stylized, the more you accept a man dressing up in costume to fight crime.

One of Nolan's mistakes was making it so average-day real that the Batsuit seemed 'silly' and out of place and, worse, impractical. You sit there thinking: lose the cape and get full tactical armor going. In a more Gothic stylized world, then a more stylized "outfit" starts to make sense. It is a tricky balance for sure.

Yep the suit and the city need to both be equally realistic or equally fantastic.

 

[a-dev]

I watched TDKR again the other night. There are things I don't like about the film but I nevertheless enjoy it overall. The action and the Batman/Bane fights disappoint me every time to be honest. The execution wasn't great. So many hits quite obviously weren't connecting, so much gunfire and cannon fire were clearly just blanks, having no impact whatsoever on what they were supposed to be hitting.
The film didn't sell very well why Batman wasn't able to beat Bane the first time around - despite owning every goon beforehand with the same ease as he did in Batman Begins, he seems to be exhausted at the very start of his first encounter with Bane and it wasn't clear why. And despite plenty of hits to the face Bane's mask was immune to damage until of course the story required it not to be in the second fight. That second fight was even more disappointing. Batman gets his ass kicked again...until he doesn't and a few barely connecting hits later Bane is out for the count and Batman is shouting at him embarrassingly like as though he had been 'in charge' the whole fight and not just in the last 20 seconds. Then Talia does her thing and Batman is at Bane's mercy once again and has to be rescued by Catwoman. A painfully uncathartic (sp?...or not actually a word?) conclusion to the Batman/Bane rivalry

And yet..and yet, I like the film. I cared what was going on. I'm not sighing and checking my phone. Well, obviously not, because I've deliberately watched the film a number of times at this stage, I know what I'm going in for. Great characters and acting for the most part, great dialogue mostly, awesome score and I think a logical way for that particular Batman to 'end'.

"So did something go wrong or did something go right? Do you want to tell me about your son's dealings with Ukraine?"

"No. No, I don't think I will..."

 

[Tyranus7]

I watched TDKR again the other night. There are things I don't like about the film but I nevertheless enjoy it overall. The action and the Batman/Bane fights disappoint me every time to be honest. The execution wasn't great. So many hits quite obviously weren't connecting, so much gunfire and cannon fire were clearly just blanks, having no impact whatsoever on what they were supposed to be hitting.
The film didn't sell very well why Batman wasn't able to beat Bane the first time around - despite owning every goon beforehand with the same ease as he did in Batman Begins, he seems to be exhausted at the very start of his first encounter with Bane and it wasn't clear why. And despite plenty of hits to the face Bane's mask was immune to damage until of course the story required it not to be in the second fight. That second fight was even more disappointing. Batman gets his ass kicked again...until he doesn't and a few barely connecting hits later Bane is out for the count and Batman is shouting at him embarrassingly like as though he had been 'in charge' the whole fight and not just in the last 20 seconds. Then Talia does her thing and Batman is at Bane's mercy once again and has to be rescued by Catwoman. A painfully uncathartic (sp?...or not actually a word?) conclusion to the Batman/Bane rivalry

And yet..and yet, I like the film. I cared what was going on. I'm not sighing and checking my phone. Well, obviously not, because I've deliberately watched the film a number of times at this stage, I know what I'm going in for. Great characters and acting for the most part, great dialogue mostly, awesome score and I think a logical way for that particular Batman to 'end'.

I have a particular vision about why Batman wasn't strong enough to beat Bane on their confrontation. Well Bruce Wayne was 8 years doing nothing in the Wayne manor, walking around with a cane and a rope. You can tell by how pale he was that he even didn't leave the manor to a walk through the park.So, what happens to a men's body when you're 8 years in repose.. simple, your body will lose muscle mass, you're going to lose strength... we don't know how much Bruce trained before his come back on the GSE robbery, but I bet it wasn't at the same level of training that when he trained with R'as al ghul. So my guess is the Batman from TDKR is far from his prime (he was at his prime in BB and TDK), though he was more wise and smart. That would explain why he wasn't able to take down Bane, but of course he was strong enough to beat a couple Bane's thugs. After he trained a couple of months in the pit, you can tell he has become stronger plus he then knew about Bane's mask that holds the pain. This are the kind of things that Nolan will not state explicitly in the movie but you have to think about

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Actually, the film explicitly tells us that Bruce is past his physical prime. Not just because of the cane, but the doctor visit that tells us how badly his body was at that point, but later on, Alfred tells Bruce that Bane is stronger, faster,and hungrier after watching footage of him. It's straight out of Rocky 3. Then after spending 5 months training his body and mind, he gets back the "eye of the tiger," and he's able to beat Bane, which he would have been able to do back in his BB or TDK days. After all, Ras said it himself, Bruce was his greatest student, not Bane.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yeah, I never had a problem with Bane 'breaking' pouty Batman.

To me, he gained his strength climbing out of the pit... with a dash of symbolism too (well, more like a sledgehammer)

 

[jye4ever]

Ok back from 2nd viewing.

More thoughts:

1. Why wouldn?t the clown army worship the actual clown that killed Thomas who was the face of everything they hated instead of Arthur who just killed 3 simple faceless traders that worked for Thomas.

Killing Thomas > Killing Murray

2. If the state took Arthur away from his mother how did he find his way back into her life. How long was gone for. Ok fine lets say when he turned 18 he went back into her life so I don?t buy that he would?ve been that upset over her actions towards him from childhood.

3. I got a Warriors vibe this time from the subway scene. Warriors is something that hasn?t been associated with this movie but I felt it this time for some odd reason.

4. I now prefer JP overall Joker look and mannerisms over TDK Joker. JP Joker on subway and final look are freaking spectacular creations.

5. Movie has some scenes that are absolutely mesmerizing to behold. Nothing in this Joker movie is as bad as the TDK Joker scene when he cuts Gambol I hate that scene it?s so dumb how Gambol just sits there and lets him do it.

6. When Randall told Joker that he always took care of him because Joker was his boy and that Joker could always repay him the favor I totally took that as Randall was hitting on Arthur for future sexual escapades.

7. TDKR still sucks.

8. Ok i?m really going out on the limb here. This time I clearly heard TDK sound effects cues when Joker was onscreen. Imagine if this is actually attached to TDK Joker and Nolan?s next movie Tenet turns out to be connected to Joker. When JP smeared blood on his face to create the smile line I immediately thought of TDK Jokers mouth. Wishful thinking.







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[YoNoSe]

Bruce running away and assuming a new identity is not significant of any healthy change. For all we know he’s killing hobos abroad.

His whole thing was that he was running away from things. Home to school, school back to home for revenge murder plot, runs away to steal and live in squalor, joins a cult, back home to disguise himself and beat people, 8 years of reclusive depresh naps in the titty bed 2.0, takes a run at suicide by Bane, recuperates in foreign subterranean prison hospice, learns fear powered super jump, uses fear power super punches and apparently time travel to fake death to once again run away and stalk his butler.