Tolkien Estate suing New Line Cinema

[CAhobbit]

An interesting development. Many are speculating that the threat of having New Line's (and whoever Newline will be melded with) rights to "The Hobbit" film stripped away is an empty one. Of course other's are worried that the rights will be stripped and the Tolkien Estate will have the rights again (which doesn't make a lot of sense since Saul Zaentz owns the film rights to "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" so if New Line lost the rights it would just revert back to him fully methinks).

Another interesting tid bit that people are speculating about is that perhaps this is another instance of people wanting the books opened again. Of course studios aren't really interested in opening their books for all to see so I'm sure all of this will be settled with a nice payout to the Tolkien Estate. I have no doubt that some kind of money is owed to them (just as money was owed to PJ and is still owed to many others that have started the process to get what is owed to them).

 

[gideon]

I truly hope this is only about money. New Line has proven that they are crooks of the worst sort and would cheat their own mother out of money. They cheated Saul Zaentz from whom they purchased the rights. They cheated Peter Jackson who made the movies. They cheated many of the actors in the films. Their honestly track record is horrible.

If the owe the Tolkien Estate money, they should pay up. However......

If you talk to the book purists in England, they absolutely loathe the three LOTR films. People who know Christopher Tolkien will tell you that he has seen the films and did not like them. They were resentful of the attention and success the Jackson movies garnered and would rather they just went away with only the books remaining.

There was an excellent bit on DA ALI G SHOW about this. Ali goes into a British publishing house and pitches an idea for a series of books to the crusty old publisher. (and I do not have it in front of me so I am paraphrasing)

Ali tells him of the tremendous financial success of the LOTR films and the publisher says he knows about it. Ali then says...."well imagine this then... LOR OF THE RINGS.... the books!!!!! They would make a fortune. The people who saw the movie would want to read about in the books."

The publisher, without batting an eye, tells Ali that the movies came from books which have already sold millions of copies.

Of course, this is comedy. But there is some reality to it. Ten times the number of people saw the movies compared to those who have bought the books. And that only includes theater ticket buyers and does not include those who saw it on TV. For many more people, LORD OF THE RINGS is the movies.

And that is what Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate truly hate with every fiber of their being. They do not want the cycle to go on with two more movies taking away their focus for the next five to ten years.

This attempt to kill the movies is real. Here is the relevant paragraph from todays Gaurdian in the UK

In the complaint, the plaintiffs accuse the studio of "unabashed and insatiable greed" and of engaging in the "infamous practice of creative 'Hollywood accounting'."
Perhaps more worrying for Tolkien fans looking forward to seeing the planned Lord of the Rings prequel, The Hobbit, hit the big screen, the suit also calls for "a declaration from the Court that the plaintiffs have a right to terminate any further rights New Line may have to the Tolkien works under the agreements, including The Hobbit, due to the serious and material nature of the breach of the agreements".

This is very serious for those who want more Middle-earth movies.

 

[Shropt]

Its a FIASCO New Line!!!?!?!?!?!?

 

[woodsy]

Like I said before, you can ask for the moon in a lawsuit but that doesn't mean you're going to get it. What are the courts going to do? Take away the movie rights from a company that has legally bought and paid for them and give them to the Tolkien Estate that has no legal claim on the rights? I don't think so. The main issue here is money pure and simply and once New Lie opens their pocketbook and settles, the Tolkien Estate won't have a leg to stand on concerning the termination of movie rights. Even though those pompous, stuck up, jerk-offs would prefer the Hobbit never be made....there's not a thing they will be able to do about

 

[woodsy]

I truly hope this is only about money. New Line has proven that they are crooks of the worst sort and would cheat their own mother out of money. They cheated Saul Zaentz from whom they purchased the rights. They cheated Peter Jackson who made the movies. They cheated many of the actors in the films. Their honestly track record is horrible.

If the owe the Tolkien Estate money, they should pay up. However......

If you talk to the book purists in England, they absolutely loathe the three LOTR films. People who know Christopher Tolkien will tell you that he has seen the films and did not like them. They were resentful of the attention and success the Jackson movies garnered and would rather they just went away with only the books remaining.

I'm surprised that a pompous, elitist, windbag like Christopher Tolkien has even seen the movies I believe at one point he said he would never watch them. Does it really surprise anyone that he didn't like them? I mean, this is the guy who disowned a family member for having the nerve to see the first film and telling the press he really liked it

Ten times the number of people saw the movies compared to those who have bought the books. And that only includes theater ticket buyers and does not include those who saw it on TV. For many more people, LORD OF THE RINGS is the movies.

You can say this about any movie. The fact of the matter is people don't read anymore. I just read a recent study that stated the average high school student will read two books in their lifetime after their education [secondary or post-secondary] is complete. I just finished reading a really good book, Mystic River...and the only response I got from anyone seeing me read the book was " why don't you just watch the movie?" This is a reality and whether Christopher Tolkien likes it or not he might as well get used to it.

And that is what Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate truly hate with every fiber of their being. They do not want the cycle to go on with two more movies taking away their focus for the next five to ten years.

What I find incredibly hypocritical of this jerk-off is that these movie's did something that no other movie I call ever recall has done. It generated a tremendous amount of interest in the books! Not only the books themselves, but the Hobbit, Silmarillion, and all the movie related books such as the "Art of" books etc...The movie's have opened the door to any entirely new generation of "middle -earth" fans, and book sales skyrocketed. I for one would love to see the stat's on Tolkien's book sales in the year's prior to the movie's release and afterwards. So really, what does this moron have to complain about?

 

[Shropt]

What I find incredibly hypocritical of this jerk-off is that these movie's did something that no other movie I call ever recall has done. It generated a tremendous amount of interest in the books! Not only the books themselves, but the Hobbit, Silmarillion, and all the movie related books such as the "Art of" books etc...The movie's have opened the door to any entirely new generation of "middle -earth" fans, and book sales skyrocketed. I for one would love to see the stat's on Tolkien's book sales in the year's prior to the movie's release and afterwards. So really, what does this moron have to complain about?

Indeed. Somehow I made it through 13 years of school and was never told to read the Hobbit. I still have no clue what the book is about.

After seeing the 3 films I finally picked up the LOTR trilogy while vacationing in London. I must say the first 2 books were quite good while the 3rd is the slowest most boring book I've ever read. I still haven't finished that one.

So the question is, would I have ever read and BOUGHT these books if the movies were never released. Simply, no, I would not have.

 

[lcummins]

...After seeing the 3 films I finally picked up the LOTR trilogy while vacationing in London. I must say the first 2 books were quite good while the 3rd is the slowest most boring book I've ever read. I still haven't finished that one...

WHAT??? Please give the book another chance; you need to get back to Frodo and Sam and then it will pick up for you, I am sure!

 

[Shropt]

WHAT??? Please give the book another chance; you need to get back to Frodo and Sam and then it will pick up for you, I am sure!

Its the Frodo and Sam part that lost me. Its just walking and walking and walking.

I haven't given up yet. Just taking a break while a read another book.

Sorry, don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[Sachiel]

Yeah, I thought that was a little tedious too, but it does pick up towards the end.

 

[woodsy]

Indeed. Somehow I made it through 13 years of school and was never told to read the Hobbit. I still have no clue what the book is about.

After seeing the 3 films I finally picked up the LOTR trilogy while vacationing in London. I must say the first 2 books were quite good while the 3rd is the slowest most boring book I've ever read. I still haven't finished that one.

So the question is, would I have ever read and BOUGHT these books if the movies were never released. Simply, no, I would not have.

I was in the exact same boat you were. I had never read LOTR, nor did I have the slightest interest whatsoever, until seeing FOTR. Since then I've read LOTR and the Hobbit three times and The Silmarillion and Children of Hurin twice, and I have a collection of over 20 LOTR-related books. So Tolkien's lame arguement holds absolutely no water with me. These are simply the ramblings of a bitter old man. You want to get the real truth as to what the movie's have done for Tolkien's books....ask a shareholder at HarperCollins

 

[gideon]

from Woodsy

The movie's have opened the door to any entirely new generation of "middle -earth" fans, and book sales skyrocketed. I for one would love to see the stat's on Tolkien's book sales in the year's prior to the movie's release and afterwards. So really, what does this moron have to complain about?

If you take the four years that the movie was in the news - six months before opening of FOTR and through the release of the last DVD of ROTK - they sold some 15 million Middle earth books during that time period. To give you an idea of how many that is, the yearly royalty/profit sharing check that the Estate cashed was between four and five times what the previous four period had been.

As you have said, sales skyrocketed.

What do they have to complain about? They simply resent it that the movies were more successful than the books and are now Middle-earth in the minds of hundreds of millions of people around the world. Those smug literary types who go to academic Tolkien conferences discussing the parsing of certain verbs and Icelandic poems are now more marganilized than ever. And they hate that. They see themselves as the True Believers and Gaurdians of the Altar of JRRTolkien.

 

[woodsy]

from Woodsy



If you take the four years that the movie was in the news - six months before opening of FOTR and through the release of the last DVD of ROTK - they sold some 15 million Middle earth books during that time period. To give you an idea of how many that is, the yearly royalty/profit sharing check that the Estate cashed was between four and five times what the previous four period had been.

As you have said, sales skyrocketed.

What do they have to complain about? They simply resent it that the movies were more successful than the books and are now Middle-earth in the minds of hundreds of millions of people around the world. Those smug literary types who go to academic Tolkien conferences discussing the parsing of certain verbs and Icelandic poems are now more marganilized than ever. And they hate that. They see themselves as the True Believers and Gaurdians of the Altar of JRRTolkien.

It's kind of sad really...in a pathetic sort of way

 

[creature4000]

yep.. it's over. It'll take a couple years to clear this crap up.. and depending on the outcome the rights might be taken away due to the Tolkiens estates being pissy... so there's another couple of years and by then... getting a good director/actors (poor Ian will be too old for Gandalf) .... I hate this!!!

 

[woodsy]

yep.. it's over. It'll take a couple years to clear this crap up.. and depending on the outcome the rights might be taken away due to the Tolkiens estates being pissy... so there's another couple of years and by then... getting a good director/actors (poor Ian will be too old for Gandalf) .... I hate this!!!

And if an asteroid smashes into the earth sending us into a stone age, it'll take even longer You want to believe all that nonsense...knock yourself out!

 

[jbinny]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


i knew everything was moving along too smoothly w/ the hobbit

 

[The Mike]

*sigh* actually now that i checked my books i think New Line owes me some money.

I saw Mortal Kombat: Annihilation and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: Secret of the Ooze in theaters....they owe me about $20 and four hours of my life back.

 

[RoboDad]

With all due respect to the posters here, I think that the bashing of Christopher Tolkien is way over the top, and way out of line. Were it not for his work, NONE of the Professor's works that were published posthumously would ever have seen the light of day. And that includes even the recent updated 70th anniversary edition of The Hobbit (not to mention Unfinished Tales, Letters, The Silmarillion, The Children of Hurin, The History of Middle-earth, and a long list of others).

And, as far as his dislike of the films goes, one some levels I can fully understand it. As much as I love the movies, there are certain elements about them that I simply don't like at all. If that makes me a "purist", so be it.

Now, with all that said, I do agree that the timing of the suit could not be worse for the production of the film, but hopefully it won't scuttle the project entirely. I don't think a revocation of the film rights will happen, but I suppose anything is possible, if a court finds New Line to be in breach.

 

[Oxfordian]

from Woodsy



If you take the four years that the movie was in the news - six months before opening of FOTR and through the release of the last DVD of ROTK - they sold some 15 million Middle earth books during that time period. To give you an idea of how many that is, the yearly royalty/profit sharing check that the Estate cashed was between four and five times what the previous four period had been.

As you have said, sales skyrocketed.

What do they have to complain about? They simply resent it that the movies were more successful than the books and are now Middle-earth in the minds of hundreds of millions of people around the world. Those smug literary types who go to academic Tolkien conferences discussing the parsing of certain verbs and Icelandic poems are now more marganilized than ever. And they hate that. They see themselves as the True Believers and Gaurdians of the Altar of JRRTolkien.

What? Let's see now, you are contracted to receive a percentage of the Gross Profit of a product and instead of receiving over £100 MILLION sterling you receive £67 Thousand sterling. Kind of sticks on the craw a little don't you think? Or is it only the Tolkien 'purists' who are bothered about a measly £99,033,000.00 give or take a few 10's of million! Imagine the poly you could buy with that wad eh? Come on, get a grip and if anyone needs a verbal bashing then New Line would be a good place to start I think.

 

[fool_of_a_took!]

from Woodsy



If you take the four years that the movie was in the news - six months before opening of FOTR and through the release of the last DVD of ROTK - they sold some 15 million Middle earth books during that time period. To give you an idea of how many that is, the yearly royalty/profit sharing check that the Estate cashed was between four and five times what the previous four period had been.

As you have said, sales skyrocketed.

What do they have to complain about? They simply resent it that the movies were more successful than the books and are now Middle-earth in the minds of hundreds of millions of people around the world. Those smug literary types who go to academic Tolkien conferences discussing the parsing of certain verbs and Icelandic poems are now more marganilized than ever. And they hate that. They see themselves as the True Believers and Gaurdians of the Altar of JRRTolkien.

Wow - well said. You definately seem "In the know".

 

[gideon]

Here is the key thing in this suit.
The original contract between UA and JRRT said that he was to get 7.5% of income once a certain threshhold had been set. That magic mark was to take certain costs of the film, multiply that number times 2.6 and then you get the threshhold figure. Once they hit that figure, JRRT was entitled to 7.5%% of the money that UA took in. The way it has been explained to me, that is not 7.5% over and above that figure, but from dollar one taken in.

Two problems here. First, did the contract spell out in clear detail what constitutes income and what constitutes expenses? Were these defined, ennumerated or listed? The people that know are not talking. Second, the estate wants NL stripped of film rights but how do they gain by that? Saul Zaentz would claim that the rights then revert to him.

Or will the Estate then try to leapfrom over Zaentz and claim that he failed to exercise due dilligence in his licensing of New Line and have him stripped as well?

This is what gives accountants and lawyers wet dreams and mansions.