Headplay recast Rainman's monkey sculpt again!

[dchung]

Don't let a few jerks gets to you, there are those who post negative posts just to sound cool and stir a reaction. Many would rather not comment in a thread like this due to how heated it can get as it is really a hot button issue. Just follow Deckards example and keep a list. If you run off, they win, and the rest of us who don't support recasting lose.

Thanks, John.

I'm thankful for hobbyists and collectors like you who view what I do as the service it is. I avoid infringing on anyone's income stream in my attempts to provide collectors with odds and ends that make them happy. It's amazing that people literally refuse to understand this issue through the lens of "income streams". Recasting is hijacking the income stream that someone else worked hard to build. Working without a license to create something that would otherwise not have been created, does not involve such an ethical breach (only a legal one).

This thread, with me trying to explain this difference between recasters and sculptors, is very frustrating and serves as evidence of the ignorance and egos of the ignorant that I have to deal with. Consumers, people who don't care where their heads come from, are part of the problem. It saddens me that they don't appreciate the radical difference.

Would they with musicians?
If I went to Juilliard, racked up student loans, worked my butt off, practiced, honed my craft, and created a brilliant album (albeit with music samples that weren't properly licensed, as with every hip hop album out there...) and sat on a corner selling my album for $10, while meanwhile, some guy is on the corner across from me, ripping/burning and selling my CD for $9...

Would people still not see that one is an ARTIST, while the other is a rip-off artist?

It's exactly the same with SCULPTORS and recasters.

 

[die]

If you don't know, fine. But if you DO know it's a recast, and you could, if you wanted, support the artist, and choose not to... then don't be surprised if artists drop out of the game.

If this were a black & white world, that would be exactly what we all should do. But, truth be told, alot of the artists out there are worse than the recasters. Chris Howes and Sovereign Studios ran off with thousands of dollars of peoples money on this board, during the years without the product they paid for, they could've have bought a recast of that head on eBay and actually gotten the product

 

[MisterToyNYC]

MisterToyNYC, I realize it's a business for you and I see why you feel the way you feel but it doesn't make anything I'm saying less true. Like I've said before, I'm more concerned with the way the sculptors themselves are treating the good people who support them. Diver4 isn't doing me any harm, I've never even bought anything from the guy.

if I remember correctly, we've both been waiting on an Arkham Joker sculpt for months now, right?

May I ask what exactly is it that concerns you about the way the "sculptors themselves are treating the good people who support them"?

Eric

 

[die]

Thanks, John.


This thread, with me trying to explain this difference between recasters and sculptors, is very frustrating and serves as evidence of the ignorance and egos of the ignorant that I have to deal with. Consumers, people who don't care where their heads come from, are part of the problem. It saddens me that they don't appreciate the radical difference.

And there lies the problem, if somebody does not see eye-to-eye with you, then they are "ignorant" or have an "ego"?

I find that quite humorous to be honest, as pretty much everybody in this thread has listened to your points and even voiced that they see where you are coming from, yet you prefer to hop on the soapbox rather than address any of the issues from the other side.


Is this bootleg?

is this?
https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102390


For the record, Wildstorm is who came up with the character designs for Arkham Asylum, you can see who the artists are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildstorm

and yes, there are licensed figures available and more on the way. Now, I'm probably just as frustrated as you are, but I still refuse to resort to calling somebody ignorant. So, what you're saying is that it is wrong to copy another artist's work for profit without their permission?

 

[die]

Mat I ask what exactly is it that concerns you about the way the "sculptors themselves are treating the good people who support them"?

Eric

Of course you can. I explained alot of it in here already as well. I think just the fact that we all know there are people still waiting 3 or 4 years for items is a great example.

 

[dchung]

So, what you're saying is that it is wrong to copy another artist's work for profit without their permission?

I will do my best to answer your question.
We've all talked about the legal aspects of all this to death. So no need to go there. Yes, legally, Hanouman should owe Wildstorm some money, or cease and desist, depending on what Wildstorm wants. (And DC Comics, maybe Warner Bros., etc...) Legally, it's clear and we all agree, yes?

My whole point, this entire thread, however, is that if you look beyond the legal aspects and consider the ethical aspects of what's going on, the difference between a sculptor and a recaster is night and day. The two "thieves" are not equivalent.

An effective way to evaluate the ETHICS of all this, is to understand income streams. I just spent, for example, a week now perfecting, tweaking a Christopher Lloyd headsculpt. My casting it and selling it is where my hard work pays off; it's the income stream that I created for myself. A recaster hijacks this stream and steals money that should be coming to me.

If I continually get my income streams hijacked by recasters, then I will no longer devote weeks of my time bringing into existence the headsculpts that people clamor for.

Bringing this back to your example, yes, legally Hanouman owes Wildstorm money, but ethically, Hanouman has NOT reappropriated income that would otherwise have been due Wildstorm. It could even be argued, that by stimulating the fanbase, that Hanouman has enhanced the property's appeal among fans and have possibly created some synergistic benefits for Wildstorm. It's debatable, but there clearly is no hijacking of Wildstorm's income stream.

If a recaster is selling a head that someone else is rightfully trying to sell, then they are in breach, both legally AND ethically.

If you now look at this hobby, through the lens of income streams, I think future questions can be answered quite easily.

Hope that helps.

 

[MisterToyNYC]

At the risk of being called names again, what I am trying to say is that we need to support the artists who are part of this community. Artists like Rainman, Serang, Feng and others. Artists who give us custom figures that we may never see from the big companies. Artists, who by using their talent, give us these figures many of us want.

I'm not talking about whether or not they have a legal leg to stand on if someone else, many times a non-artist, takes their work and recasts it and sells it without their consent. Copyright laws are not the issue I'm making and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Raiman was claiming an legal rights either. Was he? Was he saying that he created that particular character? If I recall, he was pointing to us, people who he believed to be fans of his work, that someone else had taken his work and recasted it and was then offering it for sale. Is this not what happened?

And yes, that "A Clown" from BBK is a bootleg, but is BBK a sculptor in this community?

Let me say this, about 10 years ago I discovered the amazing world of garage kits. I discovered many amazing artists over at The Clubhouse forum offer amazing kits of everything from comic book to old horror movie characters. Whenever an artist from that community pointed out that someone was selling recasts of one their kits that they had sculpted from scratch, the community would show support. I don't recall anyone say, "hey did you get permission from so and so to make that kit?" Now, I'm not naive and believe that no one there ever purchased one of the recasts, especially if it was for less money, but no one publically attacked the artist for talking about the recastings.

I believe that's the support Rainman was looking for and that's the support I'm referring to.

Thank you.
Eric

 

[MisterToyNYC]

Of course you can. I explained alot of it in here already as well. I think just the fact that we all know there are people still waiting 3 or 4 years for items is a great example.

I'm not sure how the deeds of some unscrupulous artists should effect the reputation of Rainman, who as of today, has been an asset to this community. Has he not?

Eric

 

[die]

Chung, the thing here is that I have no motive at all. Looking at what you're saying, you are providing a service/products. Correct? so, it's always going to have to do with the money in some way or another for you. I just enjoy collecting and customizing- this isn't income for me, I'll just sell or trade stuff when I want to start a new project.

If I continually get my income streams hijacked by recasters, then I will no longer devote weeks of my time bringing into existence the headsculpts that people clamor for.

I see that, I get that. I've been in this a very long time just for the record. I was around during the begining of the whole recasting thing. I remember the whole thing with Lonnie Hale from Hero Heads and we had tons of discussions on the old OSW. I liked his attitude, he didn't complain or get angry, he was just like "the recasts are inferior, get them from the source" and he was right, I still own some of his early sculpts painted by Pacobird.

The point I'm trying to get across to you is perspective is important, you only seem to see the debate from the side of your income. Imagine yourself as creating a poular comic, you came up with the characters, worked your butt off to get it published, etc. Now, while you are trying to shop around your license to toy manufacturers as there's a demand, somebody starts mass producing your character and taking over your "income stream" while you're still hammering out details with a toy manufacturer. You may see things differently. Sculptors aren't the only artists having their income streams jacked, I think that was the whole point nam was trying to make earlier in the thread with the theives analogy.

Or, say you sculpt a Superman head, somebody takes your sculpt, sands the curl off casts it and sells it as Clark Kent. Nobody on here complained when Darren Carnall reworked Sideshow's Anakin & Obi Wan headsculpt like that when he sold tons of them back in the day but the same people would freak out if somebody did that to a Rainman sculpt today.

Bringing this back to your example, yes, legally Hanouman owes Wildstorm money, but ethically, Hanouman has NOT reappropriated income that would otherwise have been due Wildstorm. It could even be argued, that by stimulating the fanbase, that Hanouman has enhanced the property's appeal among fans and have possibly created some synergistic benefits for Wildstorm. It's debatable, but there clearly is no hijacking of Wildstorm's income stream.

Lol, come on now. "stimulating the fanbase"!!!

Doesn't Sideshow/Hot Toys have the license?


Perhaps you could just consider the people recasting your "Time Backwards Brown" figure as stimulating the fanbase to buy your BTTF mini-posters and photos sets?

 

[die]

At the risk of being called names again, what I am trying to say is that we need to support the artists who are part of this community. Artists like Rainman, Serang, Feng and others. Artists who give us custom figures that we may never see from the big companies. Artists, who by using their talent, give us these figures many of us want.

I think they do get plenty of support here. They seem to always have enough supporters to go through with their limited runs

But, are you saying that if they are doing figures that we WILL see from big companies, then we should not support them? Cause HT has been pulling in some serious licenses lately to be honest.

And yes, that "A Clown" from BBK is a bootleg, but is BBK a sculptor in this community?

Does that matter though, really? I'm just asking.

I'm not sure how the deeds of some unscrupulous artists should effect the reputation of Rainman, who as of today, has been an asset to this community. Has he not?

Eric

I've never bought anything from Rainman, but I have no problem with him at all. He has some amazing expensive works, I enjoy seeing what he's working on. I don't even think the discussion is about whether Rainman is a great artist or fair guy in the community, I don't even think we've established what the community is to be honest. If you're asking me could Rainman face a lawsuit? Sure, he could - nobody can argue that as anybody doing this type of work could. Does Rainman make alot of cash off of somebody else's creations and peoples love and nostalgia for those creations? Sure he does. Do the original creators of those characters see any of the money? No, they don't.

Just because I enjoy his work and would love to own some of it doesn't mean that I'm going to not be honest about it. I agree 100% about supporting the great artists in this community (especially Xenoviper & Spenser and especially not Chris Howes and possibly Hanouman) but all I'm saying is people need to quit trying to play moral police for everybody on here. This Deckard dude is boycotting people simply because they disagree with him, hey, that's his choice but "Wow" at that, man. Ironman doesn't recast and he's been in this hobby for a long time and is a good guy, not very respectful to be like that towards him when he's one of the best dudes on here.

 

[dchung]

Imagine yourself as creating a poular comic, you came up with the characters, worked your butt off to get it published, etc. Now, while you are trying to shop around your license to toy manufacturers as there's a demand, somebody starts mass producing your character and taking over your "income stream" while you're still hammering out details with a toy manufacturer. You may see things differently. Sculptors aren't the only artists having their income streams jacked, I think that was the whole point nam was trying to make earlier in the thread with the theives analogy.

A possible eventual stream doesn't carry the same weight as a real one already in existence, so the difference in the tangibility of those income streams matters. Yours is a salient point and well taken. It also reinforces the idea that income-stream hijackers are despicable.

Or, say you sculpt a Superman head, somebody takes your sculpt, sands the curl off casts it and sells it as Clark Kent. Nobody on here complained when Darren Carnall reworked Sideshow's Anakin & Obi Wan headsculpt like that when he sold tons of them back in the day but the same people would freak out if somebody did that to a Rainman sculpt today.

That's an interesting point and probably has more to do with Robin Hood/underdog mentality than anything else. You know, short-changing big companies like SS and HT seems somehow less egregious than depriving the same dollar amount from a guy working out of his apartment. Probably also explains the double standard with Headplay's recasting HT bodies without fuss.

Perhaps you could just consider the people recasting your "Time Backwards Brown" figure as stimulating the fanbase to buy your BTTF mini-posters and photos sets?

I could... but there'd still be the obvious issue that they hijacked my income stream from the Doc figures I'd be trying to sell...

Do you have a wishlist of figures you wish someone, company or customizer, would make? Because if you do, it makes more sense to support the guys who can make your wish a reality, than the guys who disincentivize the wish-fulfillers.

 

[SwedishHeat]

That's an interesting point and probably has more to do with Robin Hood/underdog mentality than anything else. You know, short-changing big companies like SS and HT seems somehow less egregious than depriving the same dollar amount from a guy working out of his apartment. Probably also explains the double standard with Headplay's recasting HT bodies without fuss.

This is something that bothers me. If it's okay to recast companies' stuff because they make lots of money, then it SHOULD be okay to recast Rainman's stuff due to their relative positions. Rainman makes about $40k per project (yeah, I did the math, haha). To date, between the two recast heads, they've sold 9 pieces amongst the two sellers, so that's $360. and if you figure Rainman made $40k from Narrator and $40k from Durden, then he made $80k, while the recaster made $480. The recaster deprived Rainman of .45% of his income stream, not even 1%. And Rainman isn't even offering the heads anymore, so realistically, he's not losing any money.

Maybe it's beneficial to add some perspective to the situation.

Also, the one thing I'm keeping my eye on, which is just me speculating at this point, is Denny Kim's involvement with ZCWO, who have allegedly recast the Slim TT, and showed off a modular body that has recast TT Narrow and TTM arms and body parts. I'm assuming the body that everbody's Ra's and Detectives will be built on is essentially a re-cast body. So I'm really curious how the collectors that support Rainman and hate the recasting of his heads will rationalize buying a product with a recast Hot Toys body.

 

[dchung]

Perhaps you could just consider the people recasting your "Time Backwards Brown" figure as stimulating the fanbase to buy your BTTF mini-posters and photos sets?

And speaking of my Emit Brown figure, this is completely on a tangent to this thread, but I actually contacted Universal Studios about a week ago to inquire about a license. I realize HT has the BTTF license, but wanted to check to see if their's was only for Marty and Delorean, and whether it was also only for 1:6 scale, and also whether it was for poseable action figures. I'm hoping I can squeeze in with static display statues (like the McFarlane 12" line, but with fabric clothes), or at 1:7 (1:6.5 rounded up, of course) scale like Kotobukiya did with Star Wars, or with Doc Brown if the license was negotiated character by character, or if they hold the license to BTTF, if I could get BTTF2 (since Doc appears in his futuristic outfit, and 50s outfits in both 1 and 2); and if all else fails, then no characters, but just accessories... I'm working on it, and am waiting for them to get back to me... fwiw

 

[dchung]

This is something that bothers me. If it's okay to recast companies' stuff because they make lots of money, then it SHOULD be okay to recast Rainman's stuff due to their relative positions.

Not saying it's okay. Just speculating as to why there may not be the same level of outrage.