Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I think it is about what Star Wars means. These aren't just your average Marvel or Disney films, consisting of disposable entertainment. Not simply a "if it sucks just wait for the next one" situation. These films are part of our cultural legacy. Modern day Greek myths. And these heroes that defined that legacy have entered our cultural consciousness as part of that legacy. They represent who we are as a people. What we aspire to. The values we hold. The prequels were disasters no doubt, but to their credit they at least kept that same spirit and values as the originals

It may seem silly, but these can't be dismissed as "just movies" anymore than "The Odyssey" could be dismissed as "Just a book". To see that those icons deconstructed and tossed aside to make room for a soulless corporate product; a bland and uninspiring series of images designed for nothing more than selling toys, promoting sustainable corporate self-interest, and advancing political agendas (with being a quality film or having any sense of sincerity not a huge priority), it goes beyond simply being disappointed. That disappointment feels more like disrespect. Disrespect for those in charge not respecting their job as caretakers of out culture.

Pssst, a lot of the OT and a lot of the PT were made specifically to sell toys. Hello Ewoks, Gungans, multitude of different clothing every scene. You realise George Lucas waivered his directors pay to get all of the Toy liscencing?
 
Or maybe they saw all of those things and liked what they saw?
This is more about what I mean, the idea that this movies is so fundamentally bad, that "there must be a systemic problem with Disney or the studio system," and not simply a case of "I just didn't like it."
I think I gave you examples of how it was a fundamentally bad movie and poorly written:
*major inconsistencies with plot from TFA
*disregard for the Skywalker "legacy"
*the Leia in space sequence...seriously
*General Hux turning from serious "Grand Moff Tarkin" character into a Monty Python-Mel Brooks Nazi parody caricature.
*disjointedness in plot progression with poorly written dialogue (too many to list)
 
Pssst, a lot of the OT and a lot of the PT were made specifically to sell toys. Hello Ewoks, Gungans, multitude of different clothing every scene. You realise George Lucas waivered his directors pay to get all of the Toy liscencing?

It doesn't matter what they were intended to be. This is what they ended up becoming.
 
I think I gave you examples of how it was a fundamentally bad movie and poorly written:
*major inconsistencies with plot from TFA What was inconsistent
*disregard for the Skywalker "legacy" The Skywalker legacy still lives on, do you realise that to become one with the force and become a force ghost is extremely hard to do, Luke has done what only a couple of people have managed to do, his legacy will live on in Rey and everyone else
*the Leia in space sequence...seriously You are correct
*General Hux turning from serious "Grand Moff Tarkin" character into a Monty Python-Mel Brooks Nazi parody caricature. You are definitely correct
*disjointedness in plot progression with poorly written dialogue (too many to list)
Ehhh, in parts yeah
 
I can't imagine anyone wanting to like this movie more than I did. I was invested in the characters from TFA, forgiving the faults and the fact it was essentially a reboot/remake of ANH (much like Superman Returns/Superman). I was the rare Star Wars fan who wouldn't have minded Luke being evil if it served the story especially since TFA established the original trilogy characters failed. But to make Luke an ineffectual quitter? All the lazy writing? Almost no character arc for anyone? Rose? Finn's defining character trait is cowardice? A movie long spaceship chase at 4 miles an hour? Super Leia? Incessant bad jokes that fell flat? The force can do anything now? TLJ just being a poorly realized ESB re-make? I could just keep going....this movie is practically unwatchable. I'm happy to be saving $240 but MAN I wanted to want that Hot Toys Luke. No urge to see the next one at all. I'd rather watch Rouge One again. This is real disappointment here.
 
*major inconsistencies with plot from TFA What was inconsistent
1. Knights of Ren completely missing from TLJ as well as missing from Luke's recollection of Ben's betrayal. TFA really built up the importance of Ben getting force sensitives to join him and destroying the temple.
2. In TFA, Abrams teases that Kylo Ren knew who Rey was when he says, "What girl!" and left a cliff hanger when Maz asks Han Solo, "Who is the girl?" It is also obviously implied that Maz knew who Rey was during the whole Skywalker lightsaber scene when she says, “That lightsaber was Luke’s and his father’s before him, and now it calls to you.”
3. If Rey was a nobody and her parents sold her for drug money and are buried on Jakku, why did they fly off in a fancy spaceship? Before you say, "Kylo was lying", Johnson already came out and said that Kylo was not lying.
4. The Leia scene. How did someone with no training in the force at all- and unconscious- suddenly pull out a Supermanesque Space Flight that no Jedi Master has even performed?
5. Why didn't Luke notice Snoke seducing him to the dark side if he was at a Jedi temple? Who the hell is Snoke? How did he go from a trained, powerful dark side user to a gimp in pajamas?
6. Hux's portrayal
 
1. Knights of Ren completely missing from TLJ as well as missing from Luke's recollection of Ben's betrayal. TFA really built up the importance of Ben getting force sensitives to join him and destroying the temple.
2. In TFA, Abrams teases that Kylo Ren knew who Rey was when he says, "What girl!" and left a cliff hanger when Maz asks Han Solo, "Who is the girl?" It is also obviously implied that Maz knew who Rey was during the whole Skywalker lightsaber scene when she says, “That lightsaber was Luke’s and his father’s before him, and now it calls to you.”
3. If Rey was a nobody and her parents sold her for drug money and are buried on Jakku, why did they fly off in a fancy spaceship? Before you say, "Kylo was lying", Johnson already came out and said that Kylo was not lying.
4. The Leia scene. How did someone with no training in the force at all- and unconscious- suddenly pull out a Supermanesque Space Flight that no Jedi Master has even performed?
5. Why didn't Luke notice Snoke seducing him to the dark side if he was at a Jedi temple? Who the hell is Snoke? How did he go from a trained, powerful dark side user to a gimp in pajamas?
6. Hux's portrayal

1. TFA does not build this up. People have inferred things. The Knights of Ren were never part of Ben's betrayal. Han tells Rey that "one student went bad," and Luke tells Rey that Ben took several students with him. Both the flashbacks that Rey saw with the Knights of Ren and the destruction of Luke's temple were at night and so people assumed they were at the same time. But it wasn't raining when Luke looks over the destruction, and Kylo has his mask when we see the Knights of Ren (this implies he is not student/Ben Solo, but at a time later when he is fully committed to the dark side.) These were visions of two separate events. As far as we know, the students that Ben took became the Knights of Ren and are still out there, and will probably be a major part of the next film.

2. Both of these are things that people read way too much into. People see an inference, because they want to. Nothing is "obviously implied." And the lightsabre was previously owned by two of the most powerful Jedi in decades. It has a huge connection to the force. It's the force that calls Rey, not the lightsabre. It's her connection to the force that is awakening.

3. It's not a fancy spaceship. It's a relatively small ship that we see from fairly far away. Why else would parents leave their child with someone like Unkar Plutt? Every aspect of that character is despicable. No parent would willingly leave their child with someone like him, if their goal was to protect them.

4. You do not know that she has had "no training at all." Yoda explicitly tells Luke "Pass on what you have learned," in reference to her in RotJ. It's ridiculous to assume that he wouldn't not have helped her learn to use her abilities in the 30+ years that followed RotJ. And she is also a Skywalker, meaning that she is very strong with the force, just like Luke.

5. Luke did notice. That was the whole point. And he was hardly a "gimp in pajamas." He was shown to be incredibly powerful in this movie. It was only his hubris that allowed Kylo to betray and kill him. Kylo is a more interesting villain anyway. And who was the Emperor in RotJ? We didn't know anything about him for 30 years.

6. This is fair. This to me feels a lot to me like set up for the next film. They are establishing that Hux hates Kylo and spends the whole movie being **** on, and that we will see a resolution to that in the next film.
 
Last edited:
Agree with all points, except number two. I would be more inclined to agree with Kibishii on that. Anything is possible of course, but I more get the impression that Kylo knows who Rey is but doesn't want her to know who she is and was merely using the line "you're nobody in this story, but you're somebody to me" as leverage to attempt to get Rey to side with him. People say that apparently RJ has stated that Kylo wasn't lying regarding Rey's parents (I haven't listened to any of his interviews so I don't know what he said), but who's to say that RJ wasn't lying himself? I wouldn't be surprised if by the conclusion of this trilogy, she has a surname that she espouses.

I don't think what Kibishii mentioned in his second point regarding TFA is looking too much into it, as there are valid reasons to believe that Rey was played up to be someone of significance. Kylo's reaction to Hux's statement "they had help from a girl" to me insinuated that he thought the situation was dire if it was indeed "the girl" he seemed to think it was. Otherwise, why would he care so much "what girl" is was? I can go with the notion that Anakin's/Luke's saber has come to possess some Force sensitivities itself and that it was merely the Force calling out to Rey via the saber and not necessarily the saber itself; however, if Han told Maz that Rey was "just a nobody" or that he doesn't know, I doubt Maz would have hastily gone searching for her the way she did.

I think it could go either way. Perhaps she does truly end up being a "nobody", but I think there's also room for them to still have her turn out to be "somebody" based on things stated in TFA and simply make it turn out that Kylo was fibbing. It's still somewhat ambiguous. I do think to an extent they are taking this trilogy on an episode by episode basis and haphazardly making it up as they go along. As opposed to having an overall plan, it seems each director is merely leaving doors open so to speak and then just letting the next director either go through them or close them if they want. For instance, perhaps in RJ's mind, Kylo was indeed not lying in TLJ regarding Rey's parents because in his film that was the truth, but for the next director (JJ) who comes in for Episode IX, he's free to change that if he wants. However, the door is left open if he wants to let that still be the case, regarding her being a nobody.
 
For point 2, I've always interpreted this as people questioning why this nobody girl is suddenly dropped in the middle of this conflict. This girl from a junk planet. This girl who wants to go back instead of joining the legendary Han Solo or some other worthy cause when the opportunity arises. The "who is this girl?" is more of a curiosity than a confirmation. Maz sees right through Rey like she does with Finn. Something is holding Rey back, and Maz is simply urging her to take the opportunity to move on (let the force guide you). Kylo, high and mighty, acts more like who else is trying to ruin his day. Then he's curious that a plain scavenger girl is the kink in his plan, but oh wait she's strong in the force (refer back to Snoke & awakening in the force).
 
Yeah I never got the sense that anyone in TFA had some deeper insight or knowledge into who Rey was. Maz only seemed to recognize that she had some connection to the Force, and Snoke and Kylo seemed completely baffled by this girl throughout.
 
And she is also a Skywalker, meaning that she is very strong with the force, just like Luke.

You had a pretty good post except for this line. Rey is not a Skywalker. She is not a Kenobi, she is not Jinn, she is not a Palpatine, she is not an Antilles, she is not a Windu.

The people who insist that Rey has to have some kind of lineage (not singling out you) drive me crazy. In fact, I would have been seriously annoyed if they made her a Skywalker or a Palpatine or something. God forbid they introduce brand new characters.

Anakin may have been born of the Force, but he wasn't good with it until he underwent teachings from Obi-Wan, Yoda and the Jedi. Rey having a knack for the Force isn't indicative that she's a Skywalker. It just means that if she was born 60 years earlier, she would have been powerful enough to likely sit on the Jedi Council. Remember, Kanan Jarrus never finished his Jedi Training (due to Order 66), so he was self taught after only getting so much training, and he was able to stand up to Darth Vader.
 
You had a pretty good post except for this line. Rey is not a Skywalker. She is not a Kenobi, she is not Jinn, she is not a Palpatine, she is not an Antilles, she is not a Windu.

The people who insist that Rey has to have some kind of lineage (not singling out you) drive me crazy. In fact, I would have been seriously annoyed if they made her a Skywalker or a Palpatine or something. God forbid they introduce brand new characters.

Anakin may have been born of the Force, but he wasn't good with it until he underwent teachings from Obi-Wan, Yoda and the Jedi. Rey having a knack for the Force isn't indicative that she's a Skywalker. It just means that if she was born 60 years earlier, she would have been powerful enough to likely sit on the Jedi Council. Remember, Kanan Jarrus never finished his Jedi Training (due to Order 66), so he was self taught after only getting so much training, and he was able to stand up to Darth Vader.

He was referring to Leia.
 
Yeah I never got the sense that anyone in TFA had some deeper insight or knowledge into who Rey was. Maz only seemed to recognize that she had some connection to the Force, and Snoke and Kylo seemed completely baffled by this girl throughout.


I agree with this. Maz has been around for long enough that she's known many Jedi and seen them at the height of their power. She was able to recognize that there was something special about Rey, she didn't recognize Rey herself.

The Jedi maintained their Order for thousands of years by finding young children to their temple for training. In a galaxy so massive, it's not like the Jedi had the numbers to station recruiters on each planet to find Force sensitive children as they were born. They were guided by the Force to find them (at least they were in the EU, who knows how that works now that they're basically reinventing how the Force works). If Maz has been around long enough to know the Jedi when they could recognize those gifted with the Force, Maz probably had that ability herself. As Chirrut proved in Rogue One, you didn't need to be a Jedi or Sith or have any training to have a strong connection to the Force.

I'm with davejames, Maz just realized Rey had potential and could see that she was special. Same thing Han Solo was able to see.
 
He was referring to Leia.


My bad, I misread that, going back between Rey and Leia. Sorry Tanker.

And I actually agree that Luke probably taught Leia a thing or two about the Force in the event he was killed somehow, at least someone would still have some Jedi knowledge. I still think her flying through space scene was entirely absurd, but I agree with the sentiment that she had to have some connection to the Force through Luke. It was thirty years, he had to have taught her something to protect the Jedi legacy.
 
Luke probably taught Leia a thing or two about the Force in the event he was killed somehow, at least someone would still have some Jedi knowledge. I still think her flying through space scene was entirely absurd, but I agree with the sentiment that she had to have some connection to the Force through Luke. It was thirty years, he had to have taught her something to protect the Jedi legacy.

My precise sentiments also.
 
Leia flying through space, it is even less believable than Leia using the force to deflect the laser blasts or stop them like kylo ren does.
 
I didn't have a problem with Kylo stopping blasts with the Force. I thought that was a pretty cool Dark Side power. If Vader could choke a guy from across a room or pin a guy to the ceiling, and if Palpatine could shoot lightning from his fingertips, and if Plageius could influence life, I don't think use the Force to stun/stop moving objects is all that far-fetched.

Not freezing to death in the dead of space in a matter of seconds is an entirely different story.
 
I didn't have a problem with Kylo stopping blasts with the Force. I thought that was a pretty cool Dark Side power. If Vader could choke a guy from across a room or pin a guy to the ceiling, and if Palpatine could shoot lightning from his fingertips, and if Plageius could influence life, I don't think use the Force to stun/stop moving objects is all that far-fetched.

Not freezing to death in the dead of space in a matter of seconds is an entirely different story.
I remember playing knights of the old republic back on old xbox, force push and pull were may be the first powers to learn. Then there was force defrost, and I thought wait a minute, where is this going to be useful?....you know nevermind that was just,a nightmare:)
 
My bad, I misread that, going back between Rey and Leia. Sorry Tanker.

And I actually agree that Luke probably taught Leia a thing or two about the Force in the event he was killed somehow, at least someone would still have some Jedi knowledge. I still think her flying through space scene was entirely absurd, but I agree with the sentiment that she had to have some connection to the Force through Luke. It was thirty years, he had to have taught her something to protect the Jedi legacy.

Not an entirely bad idea. The problem was there was no set up or explanation for it. Its Chekov's gun but without the first half.
 
I don't really need much of a setup myself. Leia is a Skywalker and it's already been established that they were much stronger in the Force than most, so the idea that Leia was able to use her power in a way we haven't seen before seems perfectly reasonable to me. And her using the Force to survive the cold of space and pull herself back to the ship frankly doesn't seem any more mystical or farfetched to me than coming back from the dead as a freakin ghost who can interact with the living.

Strange how people can so easily accept that power now, but not what Leia did.
 
Back
Top