Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

[Cagoda]

I didn't have a problem with Kylo stopping blasts with the Force. I thought that was a pretty cool Dark Side power. If Vader could choke a guy from across a room or pin a guy to the ceiling, and if Palpatine could shoot lightning from his fingertips, and if Plageius could influence life, I don't think use the Force to stun/stop moving objects is all that far-fetched.

Not freezing to death in the dead of space in a matter of seconds is an entirely different story.

You wouldn’t freeze to death in a matter of seconds in space. There’s been scientific articles released about what would happen to the body in space. Long story short Leia would have about 2 minutes before she died, without usage of the Force.

 

[ShadowX81]

I don't really need much of a setup myself. Leia is a Skywalker and it's already been established that they were much stronger in the Force than most, so the idea that Leia was able to use her power in a way we haven't seen before seems perfectly reasonable to me. And her using the Force to survive the cold of space and pull herself back to the ship frankly doesn't seem any more mystical or farfetched to me than coming back from the dead as a freakin ghost who can interact with the living.

Strange how people can so easily accept that power now, but not what Leia did.

So because force powers exist, anything and everything that is a power (regardless of how it was never established) fits?

Also we have never once nor since been given any indication that Leia had been trained by Luke? Potential yes. But never trained.

 

[SilverStar17]

I don't really need much of a setup myself. Leia is a Skywalker and it's already been established that they were much stronger in the Force than most, so the idea that Leia was able to use her power in a way we haven't seen before seems perfectly reasonable to me. And her using the Force to survive the cold of space and pull herself back to the ship frankly doesn't seem any more mystical or farfetched to me than coming back from the dead as a freakin ghost who can interact with the living.

Strange how people can so easily accept that power now, but not what Leia did.

I would concur with the first half of your post, regarding Leia being a Skywalker and therefore, it's sort of axiomatic that she's powerful with the Force. I have no issue presuming she may have been shown a thing or two by Luke in the past 30 years.

Mildly disagree with the second half though, and agree more with Shadow. We might as well have all these Force sensitive characters have all of Superman's abilities and more, and attribute it to the Force. I get their intent on wanting to demonstrate Leia's Force power, but a spacewalk I think probably wasn't the best way. I forgot what thread it was, but I had suggested perhaps having her move the stones at the end of the film to help the Resistance escape. It would have had more gravitas as well I think because you would have had Luke and Leia working in tandem using the Force to help the Resistance live to fight another day.

I do realize though it creates the question of how limited are abilities within the Force and what's too far fetched, and who gets to decide that. Do we just stick with what's already been established in the OT and not introduce any new Force abilities? What are the limitations?

 

[ShadowX81]

I do realize though it creates the question of how limited are abilities within the Force and what's too far fetched, and who gets to decide that. Do we just stick with what's already been established in the OT and not introduce any new Force abilities? What are the limitations?

Personally I'm fine with them expanding the use of Force in whatever ways make sense, so long as they set it up naturally so it doesn't just come out of nowhere.

As I stated earlier, I'm a big believer in the "Chekov's Gun" rule.

 

[SilverStar17]

Personally I'm fine with them expanding the use of Force in whatever ways make sense, so long as they set it up naturally so it doesn't just come out of nowhere.

As I stated earlier, I'm a big believer in the "Chekov's Gun" rule.

I'm not sure what that rule is, but I would agree with what you stated before it.

This is why I didn't have an issue with Kylo stopping the blaster fire in mid air in TFA. It's a never before seen ability, but it was already established in ESB that blaster fire could be blocked using the Force when Vader blocked Han's blaster fire, so I think taking essentially the same ability but simply giving it a little more spice, for lack of a better term, wasn't really all that shocking.

Leia's spacewalk was kind of out of left field.

 

[ShadowX81]

I'm not sure what that rule is, but I would agree with what you stated before it.

Its a dramatic principle about telling efficient stories. Basically (and I'm paraphrasing) that dramatic developments come in two parts. Set up, and pay off.

i.e. "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

When it is talked about, it is typically applied the opposite way. That all dramatic set ups are promises to the audiences that should be kept (BTW: a direct violation of Abrams disasterous "mystery box" principle).

But I've always felt it works in reverse too. All significant plot developments and revelations should be set up or in some way hinted at beforehand, otherwise they seem abrupt and out of place. Using it helps a story feel like a well-rounded whole rather than a series of random events. James Cameron is really good at applying it well, which is why I'm a big fan of his.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

Personally I'm fine with them expanding the use of Force in whatever ways make sense, so long as they set it up naturally so it doesn't just come out of nowhere.

As I stated earlier, I'm a big believer in the "Chekov's Gun" rule.

I'm also okay with Force abilities being expanded upon, if it has a point. Kylo's abilities in TFA were good at this, they made him seem very dangerous while adding new mystery to Force abilities. Rey's on the other hand, destroy all that by just allowing the character to be able to do whatever because that's what the plot needs to her do. Kylo's were new but familiar, we've seen things stopped mid air by the Force as well as sensing the thoughts/feelings of others. They just expanded that a little and it worked.

 

[KoruptData]

I loved the movie so I immediately preordered Rey and Kylo after I watched it. But I guess this for people that didn’t like the movie. I don’t feel the need to have a Luke figure from the new trilogy. I’m a huge Luke fan, named my son Luke, but this new trilogy is about moving forward and I accept that.

 

[Jaymas]

Went to see it for a second time and it was a bit more enjoyable with a second viewing. I still feel like the second movie is on a different page from the first and that is frustrating when you want a congruent connect story where what happens in one film actually matters for the next; but with that said in of itself, despite some obvious flaws, still enjoyable. I think a lot depends on episode 9 now to bring it all together; not just the new stuff, but as a final story in a 9 chapter story. But I do think there are ways they can rescue some of the story flaws of FA with meaningful explanations in the next one.

But for this film I'm still not really sure where the main characters are (particularly Ray and Kylo) after this movie from where we left them the last movie. I kinda feel like the movie was more of a reshuffle than a turning point of any kind. Kylo goes from obsessed with wanting to be like Vader to wanting to forget the past; but still just the conflicted angry "bad guy"; and Ray is pretty much the same as she was before too. Both characters are "likable"; just not much of a real story arc for either as their character development just inches forward maybe a little, but not much. But they are as likable as they were in the FA and I can see why people might like to have them as figures; but I am going to pass.

After my first viewing I thought I would pass on everything, but after a second watch I am more open to maybe getting Luke. I didn't get the FA one, but there is a nice little story arc for Luke that I could appreciate. His conversation in front of the big tree (I'll refrain with saying with whom) I thought brought his character full circle. So Luke might be a possibility, but he will be my only one.

With that said, the question is should I get the one out now or maybe hope Hot Toys makes one that reflects how he looks in his last big scene?

 

[Hoody999]

Its a dramatic principle about telling efficient stories. Basically (and I'm paraphrasing) that dramatic developments come in two parts. Set up, and pay off.

i.e. "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

When it is talked about, it is typically applied the opposite way. That all dramatic set ups are promises to the audiences that should be kept (BTW: a direct violation of Abrams disasterous "mystery box" principle).

But I've always felt it works in reverse too. All significant plot developments and revelations should be set up or in some way hinted at beforehand, otherwise they seem abrupt and out of place. Using it helps a story feel like a well-rounded whole rather than a series of random events. James Cameron is really good at applying it well, which is why I'm a big fan of his.

Totally agree that a "Chekov's gun" principal should be used wherever required. It makes sense and adds to the sense and flow of the movie.

However for me the force is a bit more difficult in the respect that it is not necessarily "physical" as such and should remain somewhat mysterious. I think they just needed to remain logical and sensible with what they choose as a force "power". As Silverstar mentioned the Kylo laser bolt freeze power was great I thought. It was new and mysterious, but believable because of what we had seen the force do previously.

With Leia I could believe pulling herself through space (or the ship to her if you want to think of it like that) that fits with pushing or pulling rocks from the ground. However here it was the execution which was simply very poor. And in that respect I believe a different show of force power should have been chosen, like any of the examples mentioned.

Again, I can't believe that us here in a forum can come up with better more believable scenarios that professionals being paid millions and put in charge of mega movie projects. I remain with my plan to be a movie director/writer/script doctor in my next life.

 

[Preshea]

Lazer sword... smh.
No.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

"Chekov's Gun" is a perfect example of assumed or inferred expectations without intent, with regards to this movie.

There was no Chekov's Gun. But people were so convinced that everything had to mean something in TFA, and everyone had to be related for some big reveal, that they saw Chekov's Gun's where there were none.

And yes, character moments need to be earned, but not every plot development or revelation needs to be telegraphed a mile away. That removes their impact and surprise. And all the big "reveals" in TLJ may not have been foreshadowed in TFA, but they were all setup within TLJ.

TLJ is incredibly character driven. It's about discovering who these people are. I've seen people say that is an excuse for not having a plot, but that is the plot. It's just maybe not something you've seen so much focus on in a Star Wars movie before. (With the exception of ESB.)

Finn's journey though this movie is him leaning to stop running from something and deciding to fight for something. It's his journey to becoming a hero.

Poe's journey is to learn to be more than just a cocky fighter pilot and learn to be a leader.

Rey spends all of TFA assuming that answers will be just handed to her, and that her parents, or Han Solo, or Luke Skywalker, will just swoop in and save the day and instantly make everything better. In TLJ she finally learns to take action herself, and that maybe the world is more complicated that she thought. It's her journey towards being the self actualized hero.

Kylo's journey is about going from being a "Darth Vader clone" to his own person. He kills his "emperor" and is now in charge of his own destiny, in a way that Vader never was.


All of those moments are earned throughout the course of the movie. Every reveal or twist is about character. And they are earned by those characters.

 

[Hoody999]

"Chekov's Gun" is a perfect example of assumed or inferred expectations without intent, with regards to this movie.

There was no Chekov's Gun. But people were so convinced that everything had to mean something in TFA, and everyone had to be related for some big reveal, that they saw Chekov's Gun's where there were none.

And yes, character moments need to be earned, but not every plot development or revelation needs to be telegraphed a mile away. That removes their impact and surprise. And all the big "reveals" in TLJ may not have been foreshadowed in TFA, but they were all setup within TLJ.

TLJ is incredibly character driven. It's about discovering who these people are. I've seen people say that is an excuse for not having a plot, but that is the plot. It's just maybe not something you've seen so much focus on in a Star Wars movie before. (With the exception of ESB.)

Finn's journey though this movie is him leaning to stop running from something and deciding to fight for something. It's his journey to becoming a hero.

Poe's journey is to learn to be more than just a cocky fighter pilot and learn to be a leader.

Rey spends all of TFA assuming that answers will be just handed to her, and that her parents, or Han Solo, or Luke Skywalker, will just swoop in and save the day and instantly make everything better. In TLJ she finally learns to take action herself, and that maybe the world is more complicated that she thought. It's her journey towards being the self actualized hero.

Kylo's journey is about going from being a "Darth Vader clone" to his own person. He kills his "emperor" and is now in charge of his own destiny, in a way that Vader never was.


All of those moments are earned throughout the course of the movie. Every reveal or twist is about character. And they are earned by those characters.

You know a lot of people complain about the haters and the defenders of TLJ bickering on forums, but I for one am happy to read both sides to come to a better understanding. Cause I (and probably a lot of others) really want to like this movie.

I've cancelled seeing it for a second time twice, but thought I will go tomorrow during the day to give it the benefit of the doubt, and also to have some of the positive and negative arguments in mind before watching it again.

Like always I think a lot of the disappointment is in the execution, the intent was perhaps OK.

In any case I really hope I like it more on the second viewing.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Have people actually compressed the 3-act structure down to "set-up and punchline"?

What you really need is set-up, conflict and then pay-off (resolution). That's where the drama is -- that's what you really want. Don't short-change yourself with this childish short-cut. If you set up Chekov's gun, then the next "beat" would be the drama of whether a character should use that gun or not -- the final climax of that "story" is whether he chooses to fire or not (depending on your point, either can be affective).

To throw out that middle beat is to throw out the drama. And potentially the message.

Chekov's Gun is an incomplete short-cut that will give you only sitcom solutions (set-up joke and pay-off joke).

 

[ShadowX81]

Have people actually compressed the 3-act structure down to "set-up and punchline"?

What you really need is set-up, conflict and then pay-off (resolution). That's where the drama is -- that's what you really want. Don't short-change yourself with this childish short-cut. If you set up Chekov's gun, then the next "beat" would be the drama of whether a character should use that gun or not -- the final climax of that "story" is whether he chooses to fire or not (depending on your point, either can be affective).

To throw out that middle beat is to throw out the drama. And potentially the message.

Chekov's Gun is an incomplete short-cut that will give you only sitcom solutions (set-up joke and pay-off joke).

That's not for the entire story, just for individual elements in that story. PLus, to be fair, a lot of people seem to praise the last Jedi for compressing it down to 1. Either set up with no pay off (because its "subverting our expectations") or random payoff that was never set up properly.

"Chekov's Gun" is a perfect example of assumed or inferred expectations without intent, with regards to this movie.

There was no Chekov's Gun. But people were so convinced that everything had to mean something in TFA, and everyone had to be related for some big reveal, that they saw Chekov's Gun's where there were none.

Oh don't give me that. JJ Abrams talked at length about his "mystery boxes". Setting up mysteries to engage the audience and get them speculating.
He also knew that he had no clue what the answers to those questions were because he didn't find them very important. Its the same crap he pulled with "LOST". You cant deliberately engage the audience in a mystery, knowing full well that you are getting them to guess and speculate, and then blame them when you reveal that there weren't any answers.

And yes, character moments need to be earned, but not every plot development or revelation needs to be telegraphed a mile away. That removes their impact and surprise.

And to have too big of a surprise, which flys in the face of what has already been established come out of absolutely nowhere with no set up or later explanation makes it feel random and unplanned.

Finn's journey though this movie is him leaning to stop running from something and deciding to fight for something. It's his journey to becoming a hero.

So basically exactly what he went through in the last movie?

Rey spends all of TFA assuming that answers will be just handed to her, and that her parents, or Han Solo, or Luke Skywalker, will just swoop in and save the day and instantly make everything better. In TLJ she finally learns to take action herself, and that maybe the world is more complicated that she thought. It's her journey towards being the self actualized hero.

She also gets Jedi Master level force powers out of nowhere without any training and never once needs rescuing. She didn't earn anything.

 

[Wor-Gar]

That's not for the entire story, just for individual elements in that story.

Every story element should have "3 acts" so to speak -- 3 beats. Not just the overarching story, not just the trilogy, but every significant beat of the character as well. If a decision is made, it needs 3 beats to be fully developed.

Even the old adage, comedy is best in threes?

 

[ShadowX81]

So why did TLJ reduce it to 1?

 

[Wor-Gar]

So why did TLJ reduce it to 1?

TLJ is a terrible movie to learn anything from.

 

[koonfasa]

Lol, Chekhov was in Star Trek! Luke's X-wing set up was the ultimate lie. We built up two years of expectation of what Luke would do when Rey handed over the lightsaber, and tossing it like that would have moved to the back of our minds while we formed our own narratives.

This paralleled ESB as much as TFA did ANH with the same main acts, just in a different order, but more significantly playing out to different expectations. Obviously the Hoth battle was played out at the end. The Jedi training and the darkside cave/well at the start. There was also the betrayal on the gambling planet just like Calrissian on the mining city (underlining money theme there too - really did that have to be spelt out). The asteroid space chase running from the Empire to join the rest of the rebels, or running from the First Order to be the last of the rebels. And of course the lightsaber duel, from "I am your father" to nobody.

Anyway I came to say I liked the Battlefront 2 campaign. Would this be a TLJ purchase?

 

[ShadowX81]

Lol, Chekhov was in Star Trek!

Um, wrong Chekhov....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Chekhov