Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

[SilverStar17]

Exactly. While I didn't care for TLJ, I did enjoy TFA, and all four of the new characters that I like from the ST (Rey, Poe, Hux and Kylo) were all in TFA and will be in Episode 9, so I'd want to add them to my collection. Whether I like it or not, this movie is canon, so I may as well try to find things to enjoy out of it rather than deny it in my collection all together.

Yep, my sentiments as well.

I disliked the film overall for many reasons (including the painfully obvious SJW crap needlessly inserted), but I really liked Luke's character arc in the film, as well as Rey and Kylo overall. Consequently, I'll be getting Luke and Jedi Rey.

Like you stated though, regardless if I like the overall film or not, I still recognize it as canon as far as part of what took place after the OT and being a significant film due to Luke passing away in it, in what I felt was a noble manner.

 

[Spazz]

Well I am socialist. At its core socialism is workers control over production or industrial democracy. I can tell you that these postmodernist feminists are not Left.

They are effectively in service to power. They undermine resistance to the corporate state. In other words they direct people to look at this hand here while the other hand sucks up all of the wealth. That's why this twisted ideology is embraced by the corporate media.

Oh, I'm well aware of that. Like I said, it's what Marx referred to as "petite bourgeoise". The tenured academics responsible for Post Modernist theory and Identity Politics couldn't care less about working class people. They explicitly tell people that you'll be liberated if you're "represented" within the ownership class, as a demographic! If that's not petite bougeoise, I don't know what is!

The reason why I'm not a socialist is because, unfortunately, many working class people enjoy being servants. It's a real head-scratcher, but it is what it is. Also, I don't like the idea of a centralized mode of production, because I think it leads to tyranny. That's a long conversation that's obviously inappropriate for this forum. However, I'm not an idealist. I do think that people need access to primary resources, so that they are capable of controlling how they produce and consume. That sounds socialist, but I think even liberal individualism requires an individuals access to primary resources, if you take contracts seriously. From there, I prefer disposable institutions, rather than state-run centralized ones. But I think we'd agree on the spirit behind organization people: everyone should have control over how they produce and consume.

Feminists couldn't care less about real power. They make women weak.

 

[boba flint]

I will get Poe as part of my TFA collection. I will get General Leia because... well .. it’s Leia.

 

[screamingmetal]

That's actually an easy one. Light speed is for jumping extremely long distances in an extremely short amount of time. If they went into light speed while trailing the Resistance as such a short distance, even for a few seconds, they would have blown right by them and lost them. Plus, the Resistance still had their shields up, so it would have been pointless to stop them when they couldn't have boarded anyway, as I'm sure they wanted prisoners.

Besides, did you really want light speed to be used as a plot device for a third time in a single film

All the Fo needed to do was call in for reinforcements from another sector ahead of the Resistance, like the Empire did with Vader and his Devastator in R1:

There's also the stupid strategic move of using the Dreadnought to shoot at the base on the surface of the planet at the beginning of TLJ instead of shooting at the Resistance ship in orbit that can get away.

For that matter, why not call in another Dreadnought to end the sublight chase?

TLJ is just plain bad writing.

 

[medicomsucks]

All the Fo needed to do was call in for reinforcements from another sector ahead of the Resistance, like the Empire did with Vader and his Devastator in R1:

There's also the stupid strategic move of using the Dreadnought to shoot at the base on the surface of the planet at the beginning of TLJ instead of shooting at the Resistance ship in orbit that can get away.

For that matter, why not call in another Dreadnought to end the sublight chase?

TLJ is just plain bad writing.

I think there are a lot of wtf moments in the movie. That's why I can't understand how intelligent people can like this.

I mean if they haven't seen a star wars movie before, that's one thing because there isn't really much to compare this to, I get that part. But even if you've never watched star wars, there is a lot of why don't they do this?

The slow speed space chase, the battle on the salt planet, seriously that was just dumb. Think about the logic, they are just going to wait for resistance ships to run out of gas...to save first order troops? Are you kidding me? Ok, maybe the first order has had a change of heart and don't think they will waste troop lives, then why launch an assault on the rebel base on the salt planet instead of just starving them out?

 

[screamingmetal]

I think there are a lot of wtf moments in the movie. That's why I can't understand how intelligent people can like this.

I mean if they haven't seen a star wars movie before, that's one thing because there isn't really much to compare this to, I get that part. But even if you've never watched star wars, there is a lot of why don't they do this?

The slow speed space chase, the battle on the salt planet, seriously that was just dumb. Think about the logic, they are just going to wait for resistance ships to run out of gas...to save first order troops? Are you kidding me? Ok, maybe the first order has had a change of heart and don't think they will waste troop lives, then why launch an assault on the rebel base on the salt planet instead of just starving them out?

At that point in time Hux turned out to be a big wimp and Emo Darth Vader was in control of the FO and wasn't thinking rationally.

 

[Cagoda]

So now all of a sudden we should be worried about realistic tactics in the Last Jedi? Not disputing the ridiculous plot elements in some parts, but Star Wars has never used realistic tactics in any of the movies. Stormtroopers have awful room clearing technique, etc etc. Point is, from a military standpoint, Star Wars is a complete mess WAY before TLJ. But that doesn’t stop us from enjoying it, so why start now?

 

[medicomsucks]

So now all of a sudden we should be worried about realistic tactics in the Last Jedi? Not disputing the ridiculous plot elements in some parts, but Star Wars has never used realistic tactics in any of the movies. Stormtroopers have awful room clearing technique, etc etc. Point is, from a military standpoint, Star Wars is a complete mess WAY before TLJ. But that doesn’t stop us from enjoying it, so why start now?

If there is a scene that explains the waiting for ships to run out of gas, then there should be a scene explaining the assault on the stronghold when the rebels are trapped. Even if it's just kylo ren not understanding or not caring what the situation is.

 

[SilverStar17]

Surprised that it's a shock to some that ships in the SW universe run on fuel and may run out of it eventually. This was already implied some time ago.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I feel terrible for that Wampa now.

 

[medicomsucks]

Surprised that it's a shock to some that ships in the SW universe run on fuel and may run out of it eventually. This was already implied some time ago.

You mean in episode 1 when the queens ship has to land and they decide on tatooine? Do they rate fuel use in parsecs per gallon? That's not the shocking part, the shocking part is that it was necessary to explain the waiting for power loss, but not why they would launch an assault on a former stronghold that seemingly has no provisions, unless they can farm indoors in star wars land.

 

[Cagoda]

If there is a scene that explains the waiting for ships to run out of gas, then there should be a scene explaining the assault on the stronghold when the rebels are trapped. Even if it's just kylo ren not understanding or not caring what the situation is.

Yeah I agree with that. I’m just saying it’s intellectually dishonest for someone to complain about the tactics in TLJ but seemingly be fine with the tactics in previous movies. All Star Wars movies have horrible tactics and aren’t the best written movies, but they’re still fun.

 

[SilverStar17]

I feel terrible for that Wampa now.

Right? No kidding.

You mean in episode 1 when the queens ship has to land and they decide on tatooine? Do they rate fuel use in parsecs per gallon? That's not the shocking part, the shocking part is that it was necessary to explain the waiting for power loss, but not why they would launch an assault on a former stronghold that seemingly has no provisions, unless they can farm indoors in star wars land.

No I mean in Robot Chicken when it was merely a satire about needing fuel in the first place.

 

[amvmm]

Only BB-8 and I didn’t hate TLJ.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah I agree with that. I’m just saying it’s intellectually dishonest for someone to complain about the tactics in TLJ but seemingly be fine with the tactics in previous movies. All Star Wars movies have horrible tactics and aren’t the best written movies, but they’re still fun.

Yeah, I have to agree. There are enough problems in TLJ that weren't problems in previous SW movies. But, if we're going to start criticizing SW films for characters employing questionable strategies and tactics, that's not gonna be pretty. The OT is certainly not free of questionable and problematic strategies, plans, and tactics. I see that stuff as more of a given when dealing with a space-based fantasy movie that needs drama. If the Empire did things with strategic competence, the rag-tag Rebels wouldn't have made it very far. No drama to sustain one movie, much less three.

The idea of picking apart character motivation and strategy to find "plot holes" seems to be a relatively new phenomenon that can probably be attributed directly to the internet and social media. If these message boards, online review videos, Twitter, and blogs existed back in the 80's, it would have been hilarious to read about how nonsensical the plan to free Han from Jabba's Palace was. It would have been even funnier to read about how/why Jabba was just hiding behind a curtain in the dark (with C-3PO, Bib Fortuna, Max Reebo, and others) waiting quietly for someone to defrost Han. Instead, we just enjoyed the movies without getting caught up in stuff like how the Empire could lose track of the Falcon in ESB, how Boba Fett knew to drift Slave I amongst the space junk, and how Boba & the Empire anticipated the arrival on Bespin with enough time to pick out the freezing chamber (and set up a brunch for Vader and company before Han becomes the freezing guinea pig who can conveniently be turned over to Boba Fett) without any Imperial ships ever being spotted. All of these things can be retroactively explained by anyone who cares to do it. The same can be said for the strategy questions in TLJ. I don't really see these things as flaws (unless the characters engage in decision-making that is too blatantly stupid to ignore). Gotta be consistent.

 

[Wor-Gar]

If these message boards, online review videos, Twitter, and blogs existed back in the 80's, it would have been hilarious to read about how nonsensical the plan to free Han from Jabba's Palace was.

It was an idiotic nonsensical plan even in 1983, don't fool yourself.

 

[SilverStar17]

Yeah, I have to agree. There are enough problems in TLJ that weren't problems in previous SW movies. But, if we're going to start criticizing SW films for characters employing questionable strategies and tactics, that's not gonna be pretty. The OT is certainly not free of questionable and problematic strategies, plans, and tactics. I see that stuff as more of a given when dealing with a space-based fantasy movie that needs drama. If the Empire did things with strategic competence, the rag-tag Rebels wouldn't have made it very far. No drama to sustain one movie, much less three.

The idea of picking apart character motivation and strategy to find "plot holes" seems to be a relatively new phenomenon that can probably be attributed directly to the internet and social media. If these message boards, online review videos, Twitter, and blogs existed back in the 80's, it would have been hilarious to read about how nonsensical the plan to free Han from Jabba's Palace was. It would have been even funnier to read about how/why Jabba was just hiding behind a curtain in the dark (with C-3PO, Bib Fortuna, Max Reebo, and others) waiting quietly for someone to defrost Han. Instead, we just enjoyed the movies without getting caught up in stuff like how the Empire could lose track of the Falcon in ESB, how Boba Fett knew to drift Slave I amongst the space junk, and how Boba & the Empire anticipated the arrival on Bespin with enough time to pick out the freezing chamber (and set up a brunch for Vader and company before Han becomes the freezing guinea pig who can conveniently be turned over to Boba Fett) without any Imperial ships ever being spotted. All of these things can be retroactively explained by anyone who cares to do it. The same can be said for the strategy questions in TLJ. I don't really see these things as flaws (unless the characters engage in decision-making that is too blatantly stupid to ignore). Gotta be consistent.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

It was an idiotic nonsensical plan even in 1983, don't fool yourself.

Yeah, people have been complaining about the Jabba plan since I was a kid. What saves it, is that the entire Jabba sequence is just so damn fun, so the insane rescue plan takes a back seat. Nothing in the ST trilogy is anywhere near as fun as the Jabba sequence, so it's less forgivable.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah, people have been complaining about the Jabba plan since I was a kid. What saves it, is that the entire Jabba sequence is just so damn fun, so the insane rescue plan takes a back seat. Nothing in the ST trilogy is anywhere near as fun as the Jabba sequence, so it's less forgivable.

But even if people were complaining about the Jabba plan back in the 80's, it was more self-contained and didn't seem to matter to so many. At the very least, it wasn't used as a complaint to tarnish the movie as a whole. The more nit-picky complaints didn't have as much of a platform to grow more widespread. I don't see how the OT being more fun makes the insane behavior/strategies within the stories any less problematic. Either there's stupid decision-making going on with characters, or there isn't. And either it can be overlooked in SW movies (and all fantasy-based movies), or it can't. If there's a complaint about TLJ not being fun, then that's fine. But it's not really a fair knock on TLJ to scrutinize the dumb strategies within it as a failure of the film, while not applying the same scrutiny to the OT. When I was growing up, ROTJ was well-regarded by most people for everything except the Ewoks. As I got older, yeah the insanity of the Jabba plan was noted, but it was more of a joking observation in a "yeah, but so what?" sort of way. I take the same approach of the "yeah, but so what?" to TLJ. Unfortunately, there were other problems with the movie that are impossible for me to say "yeah, but so what?" to.

With that said, for now I'm only planning on getting the Poe figure. The Luke is tempting too. If HT makes a Snoke, that will be an easy purchase for me. And if they make a Crait Luke, it'll be hard to pass on it. Overall, I think ST toys sell less because OT characters have been around long enough to have multiple generations of fans. There's a legacy that has been passed down. That's why I think HT still sells plenty of the DC Trinity figures, even though the predominant opinion seems to be that BvS was not enjoyable. Those characters have a long history and a broad appeal, irrespective of the perceived quality of the movies they're in. Maybe someday Rey, Finn, Poe and co. will have the same benefit. It's just a tougher sell for now given the only 2-year history of these characters. If Episode 9 redeems the ST, and fixes some of the things that are broken, that will obviously help.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

All I meant by saying that is, if the modern films were more fun and engaging, their flaws wouldn't be as obvious. The OT's flaws aren't as noticeable and people forgive them more because the rest of the story and characters are much more engaging.