POTC: AWE Discussion - WITH SPOILERS

[LOTRFan]

Indeed there are limitless possibilities, and there are characters like Barbosa you'd love to see in future stories, but I don't know how much I'd enjoy a Pirates movie without Captain Jack Sparrow, who above all else, truly makes these films a great ride to take.

No doubt, and maybe it was just me, but Jack felt like an ancillary character in this film; not a good idea since he MADE Pirates what it is/was. He had almost no real role in the film other than to prance around talking to himself (which has always been part of the character), or provide the vehicle for the other characters ... shame.

Oh, and how or why did the Kraken die - was it too much for the budget?! :emperor

 

[jason2885]

I wonder if there was alot more filmed in all three movies than what we have seen. Hopefully they will do a special edition which will answer some questions.

 

[Agent0028]

The Kraken died because Beckett (sp?) ordered Davy Jones to kill it.

 

[DouglasMcc]

Oh, and how or why did the Kraken die - was it too much for the budget?! :emperor

Doubt it had much to do with the budget ... although I take it you were being sarcastic. The original run time was around 3:10 minutes before Verbenksi cut it down to 2:50. I would imagine either the death was filmed and cut, or planned and cut - either due to picture length.

I also do not think it was needed. Beckett tells the viewer that Jones had to kill the beast. Then the "heroes" find it's corpse. Most of us are intelligent people who can infer that Jones force it to beach itself, which killed it. Or some similar fate. Doesn't need to be shown on screen since the Kraken wasn't a major part of the movie.

 

[LOTRFan]

I also do not think it was needed. Beckett tells the viewer that Jones had to kill the beast. Then the "heroes" find it's corpse. Most of us are intelligent people who can infer that Jones force it to beach itself, which killed it. Or some similar fate. Doesn't need to be shown on screen since the Kraken wasn't a major part of the movie.

Ooooh, so I better check myself into your "intelligence thread" stat I suppose; you know to join the academia on a toy board.

:emperor :emperor

Funny, here I thought that true intelligence wasn't threatened by a dissenting opinion on of all things a film, guess I had it all wrong.

 

[DouglasMcc]

No doubt, and maybe it was just me, but Jack felt like an ancillary character in this film; not a good idea since he MADE Pirates what it is/was. He had almost no real role in the film other than to prance around talking to himself (which has always been part of the character), or provide the vehicle for the other characters ... shame.

I don't want to seem like I am mocking your post - not my purpose - but I do not see how anyone could call Jack an ancillary character. In fact, most other people are complaining that Jack took over parts 2 and 3 - which I both agree with and support since he was the best character among them all (followed closely by Barbossa). Consider this, Sparrow had more screen time than any other character in AWE ... and that's with him completely absent for the first 30 to 45 minutes. Also, his actions set everything in motion ... which contributed to all the final outcomes. How is that ancillary?

 

[DouglasMcc]

Ooooh, so I better check myself into your "intelligence thread" stat I suppose; you know to join the academia on a toy board.

:emperor :emperor

Funny, here I thought that true intelligence wasn't threatened by a dissenting opinion on of all things a film, guess I had it all wrong.

Once again, you read more into a post than was intended. I would make a joke about "he doth protest too much" ... but you would probably take that as an offense too. And I am not looking for a fight here ... just a calm rational discussion.

 

[LOTRFan]

I don't want to seem like I am mocking your post - not my purpose -

Fair enough, I suppose; though your "most of us intelligent ..." comment, seems less than genuine.

Anyway as for my opinion on Captain Jack's role, or non role. Well he enters with a nostril and never really progresses beyond that. We are introduced to his father, but with little consequence but a lame gag with mom's shrunken head - not to mention the initial gag being Richards himself. For the entire movie Jack is nothing more than a delusional, schizophrenic, talking to himself or otherwise being the source of lame gags. He is NOT the witty, scheming character we saw in the first film, and lacks any real intelligence whatsoever. There is a glimpse of greatness when he meets with Beckett, but sadly, we see him slip right back into the half-wit he becomes. Really, are there any memorable lines uttered in this film, aside from arguably, "it wouldn't have worked out," or the bit about being crazy and that is why it will work? Perhaps leaving "the locker" left him much like Ford in ROTJ clamoring to find himself through much of the film. I will say however it was refreshing to note the absence of any rum jokes, or at least from Sparrow, they were still present, but not in excess.

The movie was decent, but had a feel much like Spider-man to me; seeing as how this is potentially the last in the series, both had the urge to throw everything in, and I at least found that both rushed and cluttered.

 

[DouglasMcc]

We are introduced to his father, but with little consequence but a lame gag with mom's shrunken head - not to mention the initial gag being Richards himself.

While I would agree that Richards entire casting is due to Deep's interview after Pearl acknowledging him, I disagree about him being nothing more than a gag. He tells Jack (and forgive me if I paraphrase this wrong), "It's not about living forever, m'boy, it's about being able to live with what ya done." This, to me, signaled a change in Jack that lead to him sacrificing his chance at being cursed in order to save Will.

For the entire movie Jack is nothing more than a delusional, schizophrenic, talking to himself or otherwise being the source of lame gags. He is NOT the witty, scheming character we saw in the first film, and lacks any real intelligence whatsoever. There is a glimpse of greatness when he meets with Beckett, but sadly, we see him slip right back into the half-wit he becomes.

Were we watching the same movie? Jack set up all of the "endgame" encounters. His "bargaining" with Beckett was but a small part in the grand scheme. Lets look at it all.

1.) Without Jack (and to an extent, Teague), the Brethren would never have called for the Pirate King vote.
2.) This one relates to 1, but without Jack's shrewd planning, would Elizabeth have become the Pirate King? Do you think it was just luck that Jack was in a position to vote for Elizabeth ... the only one who was willing to vote for an attack?
3.) Without Jack's help, Will would have never been able to bargain with Beckett. In fact, without Jack giving him his compass, Will would have had nothing to bargain with in the first place. I love the line after he gets the compass, "What am I suppose to do with this?" Jack replies, "Once you start thinking like me, you will know what to do with it."
4.) Do you think it was also an accident that Jack went with Elizabeth and Barbossa to the meeting before the battle? As his hallucinatory image tells him, "well, you planned worked to get aboard, but what now?" While this was probably still part of his plan to become the Captain of the Flying Dutchman, it was an truly inspired plan.
5.) Related to number 4, but exactly how do the pirates get to the Heart without Jack being aboard the Dutchman? And without Jack, who helps Will stab the heart, there by saving Will's life?

I am sorry, but I think that the Jack in part 3 is a league above the Jack in part 1. Maybe his madness or the realizations of being dead made him more effective ... who knows. If you didn't like the movie, I am fine with that. It's your opinion. But, to say he wasn't shrewd or witty doesn't make sense to me.

 

[MaulFan]

I have to agree that Jack was still Jack in this film. The biggest difference was it took a bit more thinking to follow along with his scheming, but it was all there, each piece subtly played, and what I love is the jokes made in the film a few times about whether he knows what he's doing or if it's all just incidental, like shooting the canon and also taking out the mast. Casting Keith Richard's was all about a gag and nod to the inspiration for the Jack Sparrow character, but the character itself, regardless of who played him, was a key step, and you deffinately get a feel that Teague was a serious man and had things together and Jack was kinda like the screw up child, but father saw son's potential and the comment about how he lives his life was necessary, only could his father convince him that there's more to life than some of his crazy pursuits, and that was the step needed for Jack to grow and as Elizabeth and Will saw in him, became the good man he was deep down, while still maintaining his Jackness. I love at the end when he looks at Gibbs and says you may throw my hat, now go get it.

 

[LOTRFan]

I love at the end when he looks at Gibbs and says you may throw my hat, now go get it.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that part!


Who knows, maybe I will like the film more, when I actually get to see it without being in the second row straining my neck?! :emperor :emperor

There were some good elements, I found the final actions of Jack to be satisfying and the tragedy of Will and Elizabeth was profound, the waters just got too muddy in between for my tastes.

 

[Agent0028]

I would also add when Jack says, "We must fight...to run away." Right after Barbossa points out that Jack has never stayed to fight in his life (or however it was phrased).

 

[DouglasMcc]

I love the little bit with the Hallucinatory Jacks after the real one leaves on the Flying Dutchman:

Jack 1: I already miss him.
Jack 2: Yeah, he is a charming bloke.
Sea Jack: Ah! No one move .... I've lost me brain.

I also love the entire exchange in Davy's Locker when he thinks everyone is a hallucination. I cannot remember the entire bit, because it fires off at "rapid fire" speed. However, I remember this part:

Jack (to Will): Are you here looking for me to help you find some long lost love?
Will: No.
Jack: Then you must be an illusion, for what other reason would you look for me.

 

[oxbeard]

What I think they should do is forget Will and Elizabeth for the next one, since they sort of have a 10 year break. That way they could focus on Jack and Barbossa and get another story more similar to the atmosphere of the first movie. Then they could rejoin with Will and Elizabeth once Will is released from his curse.

Technically with the conclusion of the post credit scene, the 10 years has already lapsed. Only thing uncertain is whether there is truly a release from the curse.

 

[DouglasMcc]

Technically with the conclusion of the post credit scene, the 10 years has already lapsed. Only thing uncertain is whether there is truly a release from the curse.

The 10 years later part doesn't eliminate the film continuing on from where the 3rd one ended. The next one could focus on Jack trying to catch up with Barbossa again. In fact, it wouldn't eliminate any of the main cast from a part 4 set during the "current" time in the movies. It takes awhile for a woman to know they are pregnant. So, Elizabeth could be in another one set before that ending bonus footage. In fact, the only thing that they couldn't do is have Will on land.

However, I still would rather then do a "current" time sequel and focus on Jack, Barbossa, the crew, and some new big bad or adversary.

 

[Buttmunch]

What about a prequel? It could be just before CotBP so Jack, Davy Jones, and Barbosa (maybe even Teague again?) could all be in it. It would be a bit redunded since we all know the gist of what happens, but the same could be said of the Star Wars prequels. Either way, I want more Jack and Barbossa.

 

[Viking28]

However, I still would rather then do a "current" time sequel and focus on Jack, Barbossa, the crew, and some new big bad or adversary.

Blackbeard?

 

[Agent0028]

A friend of mine and I were talking about the possibility of a prequel showing Jack making the deal with Davy Jones and going after the Aztec gold and getting mutinied and such, but I kinda like that it leaves some of that stuff to the imagination. Of course it could always be set before that even. Personally, I just really like where this one ended and don't particularly desire another. Not that I would object to one mind you.

On a side note, I was thinking about getting the POTC video game and I read that it tells some of the past exploits about Jack like sacking Port Nassau without firing a shot. Anyways it has Will and Elizabeth in it, but at one point Will says something about, "Wait a minute, what is this you have me saying?" And one of the two says, "I wasn't here when this happened, I hadn't even met you!" Or something along those lines. I can just see 10 years in the future, Jack, Will, Elizabeth, and William Turner III sitting around a table with Jack regaling little Willy with tales of their adventures and Will and Elizabeth cutting in with that. Sorry for the really big digression I jus thought it was funny and needed to share it with someone.

 

[Buttmunch]

Blackbeard?

That is a great idea. Of course they'll have to myth him up a bit like Davy Jones. I don't think they could just have 'normal' pirates in the films anymore after the first three films. They would just seem boring and unchallenging.

Maybe Blackbeard's beard is actually the smoke monster on LOST and Jack goes to save the Losties (they actually did a spoof like that!).

 

[Buttmunch]

A friend of mine and I were talking about the possibility of a prequel showing Jack making the deal with Davy Jones and going after the Aztec gold and getting mutinied and such, but I kinda like that it leaves some of that stuff to the imagination. Of course it could always be set before that even. Personally, I just really like where this one ended and don't particularly desire another. Not that I would object to one mind you.

On a side note, I was thinking about getting the POTC video game and I read that it tells some of the past exploits about Jack like sacking Port Nassau without firing a shot. Anyways it has Will and Elizabeth in it, but at one point Will says something about, "Wait a minute, what is this you have me saying?" And one of the two says, "I wasn't here when this happened, I hadn't even met you!" Or something along those lines. I can just see 10 years in the future, Jack, Will, Elizabeth, and William Turner III sitting around a table with Jack regaling little Willy with tales of their adventures and Will and Elizabeth cutting in with that. Sorry for the really big digression I jus thought it was funny and needed to share it with someone.

They could fill a prequel with some of Jack's crimes listed at his hanging in the first film. Like impresinating a cleric of the Church of England (he smiles oh yeah).