An open discussion of the current state of the film landscape.

[Mandible]

There seems to be a current trend of: “anyone that doesn’t like a film with a woman in it is automatically a (insert whatever buzz words are going around), and it got me thinking; why not have a thread where people can openly discuss their reasoning to try and understand others points of view.

The vast majority of people would no doubt agree that equality is a no-brainer; everyone should have equal rights and respect. So with that in mind, I started to think back at films, over the last roughly 50 years, and tried to think of films where woman have been openly and overtly been labelled toxic, told they are useless, maliciously put down, are not needed, and can do nothing right.

Have women been sexualized? Absolutely. As have men, but nowhere near to the same degree. But I'm talking about openly labelled, and rejoiced as brave, for putting woman down… and I’m struggling to think of any?

Maybe I’m an ignorant fool who lives in a fairy land, but when I look back at the number one films of each year over that period I’m not seeing a trend of slandering woman in any of these films? Sure, there’s been thousands of films released over that period, but again, how many have been as aggressive is pushing ideals of one sex being lesser worth than the other, like Hollywood has in the last few years regarding men?

It would be interesting to see if people could find a list of these films? Particularly, big-budget, studio driven films with lots of P&A? No doubt there would probably be some vile underground z-grade ****, but I'm talking about ones that hit theaters around the world and have general public awareness.

1970 Love Story

1971 Fiddler on the Roof

1972 The Godfather

1973 The Sting

1974 Blazing Saddles

1975 Jaws

1976 Rocky

1977 Star Wars

1978 Grease

1979 Kramer vs Kramer

1980 Empire Strikes Back

1981 Raiders

1982 ET

1983 Jedi

1984 Ghostbusters

1985 Back to the Future

1986 Top Gun

1987 Three Men and a Baby

1988 Rain Man

1989 Batman

1990 Home Alone

1991 Beauty and the Beast

1992 Aladdin

1993 Jurassic Park

1994 The Lion King

1995 Toy Story

1996 Independence Day

1997 Titanic

1998 Saving Private Ryan

1999 The Phantom Menace

2000 How the Grinch Stole Christmas

2001 Harry Potter

2002 Spiderman

2003 Lord of the Rings

2004 Shrek 2

2005 Revenge of the Sith

2006 Pirates of the Caribbean

2007 Spiderman 3

2008 The Dark Knight

2009 Avatar

2010 Toy Story 3

2011 Harry Potter

2012 The Avengers

2013 The Hunger Games

2014 American Sniper

2015 The Force Awakens

2016 Rogue One

2017 The Last Jedi

2018 Black Panther

2019 End Game

2020 Bad Boys for Life

 

[Sassafras]

There seems to be a current trend of: “anyone that doesn’t like a film with a woman in it is automatically a (insert whatever buzz words are going around), and it got me thinking; why not have a thread where people can openly discuss their reasoning to try and understand others points of view.

The vast majority of people would no doubt agree that equality is a no-brainer; everyone should have equal rights and respect. So with that in mind, I started to think back at films, over the last roughly 50 years, and tried to think of films where woman have been openly and overtly been labelled toxic, told they are useless, maliciously put down, are not needed, and can do nothing right.

Have women been sexualized? Absolutely. As have men, but nowhere near to the same degree. But I'm talking about openly labelled, and rejoiced as brave, for putting woman down… and I’m struggling to think of any?

Maybe I’m an ignorant fool who lives in a fairy land, but when I look back at the number one films of each year over that period I’m not seeing a trend of slandering woman in any of these films? Sure, there’s been thousands of films released over that period, but again, how many have been as aggressive is pushing ideals of one sex being lesser worth than the other, like Hollywood has in the last few years regarding men?

It would be interesting to see if people could find a list of these films? Particularly, big-budget, studio driven films with lots of P&A? No doubt there would probably be some vile underground z-grade ****, but I'm talking about ones that hit theaters around the world and have general public awareness.

1970 Love Story

1971 Fiddler on the Roof

1972 The Godfather

1973 The Sting

1974 Blazing Saddles

1975 Jaws

1976 Rocky

1977 Star Wars

1978 Grease

1979 Kramer vs Kramer

1980 Empire Strikes Back

1981 Raiders

1982 ET

1983 Jedi

1984 Ghostbusters

1985 Back to the Future

1986 Top Gun

1987 Three Men and a Baby

1988 Rain Man

1989 Batman

1990 Home Alone

1991 Beauty and the Beast

1992 Aladdin

1993 Jurassic Park

1994 The Lion King

1995 Toy Story

1996 Independence Day

1997 Titanic

1998 Saving Private Ryan

1999 The Phantom Menace

2000 How the Grinch Stole Christmas

2001 Harry Potter

2002 Spiderman

2003 Lord of the Rings

2004 Shrek 2

2005 Revenge of the Sith

2006 Pirates of the Caribbean

2007 Spiderman 3

2008 The Dark Knight

2009 Avatar

2010 Toy Story 3

2011 Harry Potter

2012 The Avengers

2013 The Hunger Games

2014 American Sniper

2015 The Force Awakens

2016 Rogue One

2017 The Last Jedi

2018 Black Panther

2019 End Game

2020 Bad Boys for Life

Well, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head, and I've made jokes about it, is that in any survival or adventure movie for some reason the women end up with less clothes on, including running around in their underwear e.g. even losing their pants (Alien, Tremors). There may be a sensible reason for losing their shirts and/or pants, but still, I don't recall any movie off the top of my head, adventure wise, where the men lose their pants from some irate tentacled creature.

If you are talking the last 50 years the only films I can think of off the top of my head would be the earlier James Bond films that I think crossed the line. But things have changed a lot since then.

I suppose a film like Crocodile Dundee now could get on folks' nerves. E.g., a lot of films are just flat out male-led. But movie tastes change. Years ago any number of women headlined films and were beloved, respected movie stars.

Can't think of any films in the last 20, even 30 years where women were "put down".

 

[Khev]

Male action heroes used to conveniently lose their shirts all the time though which is the equivalent of women losing their pants (nobody wants to see dudes running around with no pants.) Rambo, Commando, Die Hard, Predator, Lethal Weapon, volleyball scene in Top Gun, I mean the examples really are endless. It was such a trope that 1999's Galaxy Quest even made fun of it.

More recently the MCU did it's part to bring all that back (Thor needing to take a *bath* to gain knowledge, wtf, lol.)

But like Mandible said I don't recall any of those movies actually making openly trashing women an underlying message let alone the primary message of its story even once.

 

[Sassafras]

Male action heroes used to conveniently lose their shirts all the time though which is the equivalent of women losing their pants (nobody wants to see dudes running around with no pants.) Rambo, Commando, Die Hard, Predator, Lethal Weapon, volleyball scene in Top Gun, I mean the examples really are endless. It was such a trope that 1999's Galaxy Quest even made fun of it.

More recently the MCU did it's part to bring all that back (Thor needing to take a *bath* to gain knowledge, wtf, lol.)

But like Mandible said I don't recall any of those movies actually making openly trashing women an underlying message let alone the primary message of its story even once.

Forgot about directors wanting Hemsworth to get naked - literally. Dunno if that translated to women or other becoming Thor fans.

 

[davejames]

What is this long list of movies arguing that men have lesser worth than women? I've seen some arguing that men can be idiots or sexists or a-holes (which, as a man, I completely agree with), but not that they have lesser value as a species. And simply acknowledging the reality that there's a patriarchy and that women and minorities around the world have to fight a lot harder to get ahead, doesn't sound like an attack on men as a whole to me. Just on the system we live in and perpetuate.

 

[Dave_W]

Oh boy...

 

[ebor]

In before the lock…

 

[Mandible]

I now have several family and friends that have all seen Barbie and (apparently) it openly puts men down is so many different ways.

As I see so many on here saying this sort of thing is okay because men have been so bad for so long, I wanted to see if people could find examples of likewise films from the past.

 

[ZE_501]

I've not seen 'Barbie' so can't comment on that specifically, but I think the logic (whether or not one agrees with it) is based on power structures and/or their legacy.

Historically, women have not been universally treated as equals, and because of that power imbalance, lampooning hetero-normative males is viewed as "punching up" rather than downwards.

Add that notion to the current sociopolitical climate and we have a fair bit of satire and scathing rhetoric doing the rounds.

Personally, I acknowledge where these things are coming from but have a notion that the 'culture war' is at least in part a construct (both intentionally and not) of the way media/social media works these days, and in my day-to-day life see very little practical fall-out over time.

Maybe we have more seminars about this stuff at work, maybe cranky older dudes complain about "not being able to say anything" anymore, maybe some woman who's not a great person takes it and runs with it because she can ... but for the most part ... life goes on with a mix of complex people with wildly different and sometimes unknown motivations, and I try to navigate this complexity like an adult and try to surround myself with sensible and compassionate people. YMMV.

 

[goatchumby]

I just see that sort of lampooning as the latest lazy/expected writing trope. Somewhat similar to the standard low-hanging fruit tropes regarding race in film. I have no problem recognizing it as fiction and my skin is plenty thick to take any of it personally, but it does get to be a bit of a groaner time after time.

Then again, I think that was the topic. What were we talking about again?

 

[Mandible]

Male action heroes used to conveniently lose their shirts all the time though which is the equivalent of women losing their pants (nobody wants to see dudes running around with no pants.) Rambo, Commando, Die Hard, Predator, Lethal Weapon, volleyball scene in Top Gun, I mean the examples really are endless. It was such a trope that 1999's Galaxy Quest even made fun of it.

More recently the MCU did it's part to bring all that back (Thor needing to take a *bath* to gain knowledge, wtf, lol.)

But like Mandible said I don't recall any of those movies actually making openly trashing women an underlying message let alone the primary message of its story even once.

I remember years ago Chris Hemseworth on the Ellen DeGeneres show. He was talking to her, in front of a vast majority female audience, and then they put up a photo of him training for Thor with no top on and the woman in the audience went mad. Chris was clearly uncomfortable and sheepish, and I just remember thinking - if that was a male show with an all male audience, and they did that to a female star, it would be totally unacceptable.

Having met Chris twice, I can tell you he has zero ego and is so down to earth that he definitely would not have been relishing that moment at all.

Another time I remember a "shoe on the other foot" moment, was when the Twilight movies were out and women and girls were "Team Edward or Team (Taylor Lautners character). At the time Taylor had bulked up and looked like a trojan, but he was only 17. A lot the marketing for that movie (The second one) was him without his shirt on.

At the premiers all around the world, there were middle aged woman standing there with Team Taylor's character, yelling like maniacs. I remember thinking, if that was a 17 year old girl and middle aged men were standing there with banners yelling like lunatics, they'd be locked up.

I guess my point is; everything should be completely equal across the board. Neither should have more privilege than the other and respect should always go both ways.

 

[ZE_501]

To answer the actual question more succinctly: I think the current trend in films (assuming that's what it is, I honestly don't pay enough attention to call it) is meant as a reaction to systemic injustice and inertia rather than an answer to a specific group of films doing the same in reverse.

 

[Khev]

I remember years ago Chris Hemseworth on the Ellen DeGeneres show. He was talking to her, in front of a vast majority female audience, and then they put up a photo of him training for Thor with no top on and the woman in the audience went mad. Chris was clearly uncomfortable and sheepish, and I just remember thinking - if that was a male show with an all male audience, and they did that to a female star, it would be totally unacceptable.

Having met Chris twice, I can tell you he has zero ego and is so down to earth that he definitely would not have been relishing that moment at all.

Another time I remember a "shoe on the other foot" moment, was when the Twilight movies were out and women and girls were "Team Edward or Team (Taylor Lautners character). At the time Taylor had bulked up and looked like a trojan, but he was only 17. A lot the marketing for that movie (The second one) was him without his shirt on.

At the premiers all around the world, there were middle aged woman standing there with Team Taylor's character, yelling like maniacs. I remember thinking, if that was a 17 year old girl and middle aged men were standing there with banners yelling like lunatics, they'd be locked up.

I guess my point is; everything should be completely equal across the board. Neither should have more privilege than the other and respect should always go both ways.

Yeah, back when I was still married I remember watching Rene Russo promoting the first Thor movie on some late night talk show with my wife and Russo told the host that during some scene when she and Hemsworth were hugging that she really enjoyed feeling his muscles under his costume which got a laugh from the audience and some cheers from the ladies that were present. I immediately asked my wife "can you imagine the reaction if Anthony Hopkins was the one being interviewed and he was describing enjoying feeling Natale Portman's curves during a hugging scene?" And she was all I KNOW RIGHT!?!?

 

[ZE_501]

I guess my point is; everything should be completely equal across the board. Neither should have more privilege than the other and respect should always go both ways.

Yeah. It's an imperfect world though -- as we all know. I remember quite a few years ago being at a club my friend was DJ-ing at.

People who understand underground music scenes and DJs will know that some scenes are for hardcore music fans and dancers, not so much to be "seen" or pick anyone up.

A group of drunk women (probably in their early 30s) wandered in that clearly didn't belong there. Six of them surrounded me way too close on the dance floor clapping and whooping (spoiler alert, I'm a pretty good dancer and athletic). I was *quite* uncomfortable and didn't want their attention. I very gently moved one out of my way so I could get some space and leave the circle. One of them slurred "That's not cool!" but that was the end of it.

I don't think what they did was right and if the genders were reversed bouncers would likely crack some heads, but that's because I felt uncomfortable, not *unsafe* and there's the difference in the power dynamic.

I still agree with you but I don't expect that kind of world yet. Maybe never.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Is she openly promoting groping of men by women?

 

[Khev]

Is she openly promoting groping of men by women?

Groping men 30 years younger than they are.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Can't they go to Chippendales like they're supposed to?

 

[davejames]

Yeah, back when I was still married I remember watching Rene Russo promoting the first Thor movie on some late night talk show with my wife and Russo told the host that during some scene when she and Hemsworth were hugging that she really enjoyed feeling his muscles under his costume which got a laugh from the audience and some cheers from the ladies that were present. I immediately asked my wife "can you imagine the reaction if Anthony Hopkins was the one being interviewed and he was describing enjoying feeling Natale Portman's curves during a hugging scene?" And she was all I KNOW RIGHT!?!?

That seems like a reach. Men run around shirtless with their bulging muscles all the time in movies, so it's not like this weird or creepy thing for a woman to react to or joke about. If Russo was joking about feeling the bulge in his crotch then that would be crossing a line and be similar to the Portman thing.

 

[ZE_501]

That seems like a reach. Men run around shirtless with their bulging muscles all the time in movies, so it's not like this weird or creepy thing for a woman to react to or joke about. If Russo was joking about feeling the bulge in his crotch then that would be crossing a line and be similar to the Portman thing.

I think that's fair enough.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I want to be objectified.