INCEPTION Discussion Thread (***Spoilers!!!***)

[isculpt]

I always though that the ending was real because we knew how we ended up there. They say you only can remember the end of the dream and not the beginning.

 

[CelticPredator]

Well, if it was a dream, it wasnt the beginning of one. The beginning of the entire dream was the Yusef getting into the car. That was the start of it.

 

[Devil_666]

I always though that the ending was real because we knew how we ended up there. They say you only can remember the end of the dream and not the beginning.

But you never see how Cobb ends up in Mombasa to meet up with Eames and Yusuf either. Cobb just appears there. And Saito just appears there which is strange since Cobb is running all over the place (in and out of random businesses) yet Saito and his driver magically know the exact street to be on to pick him up. You also never see how Cobb, Eames, Yusuf and Saito end up back in Paris. They just appear there.

 

[Deckard]

But you never see how Cobb ends up in Mombasa to meet up with Eames and Yusuf either. Cobb just appears there. And Saito just appears there which is strange since Cobb is running all over the place (in and out of random businesses) yet Saito and his driver magically know the exact street to be on to pick him up. You also never see how Cobb, Eames, Yusuf and Saito end up back in Paris. They just appear there.

Also we see Cobb at the airport and then he's at the house. No car ride. It's just editing for time.

Plus again if he never woke up to begin with(from limbo) then we don't know where the beginning to all that dream would be anyway. The question of how did I get here could very well relate to how the hell does Cobb end up in the ocean at Saito's place and from there he never woke up, just dreamed he woke on the plane which could also indicate Cobb is able to build from memory again with Mal gone.

Honestly though it really does make for some great discussion, second only to the insane goings on in The Shining with timecodes and numbers etc.

 

[Maglor]

I still maintain that the choice to use the older kids at the end was intentional. I still maintain that the clothes are different for a reason. The costume designers make specific reference to it. However, as I said before, I will no longer use the kids as evidence. 666 has cast enough doubt on it to make it futile to use. And I believe Nolan purposely filmed it that way. If he wanted to make it an open and shut case that the ending is real, he would have done more than give the girl a shirt and swap the boys sandals for shoes. Fair enough?

Please don't expect me to comment on this again.

Cobb is scared, he still doesn't trust his own judgement and hasn't all along which is why he cannot build. Nothing has changed to reassure him even with Mal gone and the mission complete. And so his only real option to not live in fear is to just let go and embrace whatever kids those are as his reality.

Here's the crux of it for me. He isn't scared anymore. Although he spins the top out of habit, he doesn't care about the top anymore. It was an old crutch to ward off the fear. He doesn't need it. He has faith in the real.

If he was only letting go of his fear by accepting that he can't know if this is dream or reality he would have stopped the top.

Again, it's a question of what Cobb doesn't care about at the end. Some think Cobb doesn't care whether he's dreaming anymore. I believe he knows he's not dreaming and thus doesn't care about the top anymore.

But you never see how Cobb ends up in Mombasa to meet up with Eames and Yusuf either. Cobb just appears there. And Saito just appears there which is strange since Cobb is running all over the place (in and out of random businesses) yet Saito and his driver magically know the exact street to be on to pick him up. You also never see how Cobb, Eames, Yusuf and Saito end up back in Paris. They just appear there.

If you are going the route that that too was a dream, please tell me now. Because the essay I am composing is based on the understanding that you believe the movie as it is presented with the exception of the end which you believe to be Cobb's dream.

To be more specific, here's what I've gotten from you so far:

1) With the exception of the ending, the parts that are presented as reality are truly reality, including the time in Mombasa and the time on the plane before the Inception heist begins.

2) The only place you diverge from this is at the end from when he "wakes up" on the plane. This you believe to Cobb's dream.

3) You believe that totems only work when you are in someone else's dream, and that this means the fate of the top in the final seconds proves nothing about whether Cobb is in a dream or reality.



Did I miss anything? Have I misunderstood anything?


Again, please tell me now because I'm investing a lot of thought and time into replying to those points specifically.

 

[Deckard]

Well how about this point, we don't get to see what happens.

Cobb does. Cobb is at some point, going to go back into that house in all likely hood. He is going to see what has become of the top. And if he doesn't he could never be sure, like Mal who he tricked,a nd look what happened to her.

I would say the only thing he cares about is hugging those kids, much as Nolan chooses to believe he gets back to them, that is the only thing that matters to Cobb in that moment. Thats why he doesn't care about the top, which to me also proves he is scared. If he wasn't why not stand there 10 more seconds to be absolutely sure after all he went through. He went into Limbo and risked his life to see his kids. Thats the only reason he does anything related to this mission, to get back to them. And he knows what happened to Mal all to well, she couldn't tell the differance to the point she killed herself. I would think Cobb would want to be totally sure so that he didn't meet a similar fate and leave his children without any parents. Hell right before she jumps : "Think of our children" "They aren't real" They were, she left them.

I also believe the lines about never letting someone understand your totem are very important. Arthur tells Ariadne about being able to manipulate other people's totems for a reason. And of course Cobb would know this as well yet he tells her how his works in detail. As you say Nolan knows what he is doing, so why include such a warning if nothing is to come of it. And she again, knows about Mal, knows she killed herself and what it did to Cobb and why it all happened. She knows all that Cobb wants is his kids, he says thats the only reason he is doing any of this. I cannot believe that nothing at all comes of all her first hand knowlege of this and her being the only one in the group that really knows what Cobb is going through. I believe that sort of like Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black with Will Smith, Leo is training her as his replacement, and wants her to perform this Inception that he has just proved possible for the first time ever on himself.

Also note Cobb's level of interest in the concept of Inception when Saito brings it up well before promising him his children back. He thinks if he can really do this, he could do it to himself and it would almost be like going back in time and making everything right again. Mal haunts him in both worlds, Inception maybe the only real way to stop her once and for all.

 

[Maglor]

Well how about this point, we don't get to see what happens.

Cobb does. Cobb is at some point, going to go back into that house in all likely hood. He is going to see what has become of the top. And if he doesn't he could never be sure, like Mal who he tricked,a nd look what happened to her.

I would say the only thing he cares about is hugging those kids, much as Nolan chooses to believe he gets back to them, that is the only thing that matters to Cobb in that moment. Thats why he doesn't care about the top, which to me also proves he is scared. If he wasn't why not stand there 10 more seconds to be absolutely sure after all he went through. He went into Limbo and risked his life to see his kids. Thats the only reason he does anything related to this mission, to get back to them. And he knows what happened to Mal all to well, she couldn't tell the differance to the point she killed herself. I would think Cobb would want to be totally sure so that he didn't meet a similar fate and leave his children without any parents.

My point is that he already is sure. Yes he will see what happens to the top (I keep making/using that point in my own argument).

He has faith, and doesn't need to watch it fall. He has no doubt that it will be lying on it's side when he comes in to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for his kids. We don't get to see it fall because Nolan gives us the privilege of exercising the same faith.


Thank you Christopher.

I also believe the lines about never letting someone understand your totem are very important. Arthur tells Ariadne about being able to manipulate other people's totems for a reason. As you say Nolan knows what he is doing, so why include such a warning if nothing is to come of it. And she again, knows about Mal, knows she killed herself and what it did to Cobb and why it all happened. She knows all that Cobb wants is his kids, he says thats the only reason he is doing any of this. I cannot believe that nothing at all comes of all her first hand knowlege of this and her being the only one in the group that really knows what Cobb is going through. I believe that sort of like Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black with Will Smith, Leo is training her as his replacement, and wants her to perform this Inception that he has just proved possible for the first time ever on himself.

So you are in the "Ariadne created the final dream world" camp?

You're on your own man! I've talked about that extensively earlier in this thread and can only have so many debates at the same time!


Lately Devil_666's argument has been dominating my thoughts and I need to stay focused!

Also note Cobb's level of interest in the concept of Inception when Saito brings it up well before promising him his children back. He thinks if he can really do this, he could do it to himself and it would almost be like going back in time and making everything right again. Mal haunts him in both worlds, Inception maybe the only real way to stop her once and for all.

Nah, He doesn't want to be incepted. He just wants to get home to his kids.

 

[Deckard]

No, and reread why I added a bit more to back up my points.

My ultimate belief : It's Cobbs dream, he's in limbo building again from memory with his kids, she manipulated the Top and with Cobbs help they both performed inception on Cobb to make him believe Mal is gone and this is real so he can build whatever he wants as long as he wants. He can spend forever with the kids never growing old and leaving him behind for school or whatever, or he can watch them grow, whatever he wants. He can pretend he was never a fugitive.

Nah, He doesn't want to be incepted. He just wants to get home to his kids.

You can simply say that but you have no more proof then you do for your own points, they both are equally feasible as is Devil's explanation to me, its just how you choose to interprut and believe it.

Im ok with that outcome because Cobb, the only character I know from Cobb's family since Mal and his children are projections and he can't be trusted(for all we know Mal could have been 500 pounds and one armed), ends up happy and getting what he wants while leaving me with a great twist. Like the end of Brazil. I simply like the idea that such a complicated movie, ends with an equally complicated idea, as opposed to just gift wrapping a happy ending for me.

 

[Devil_666]

If you are going the route that that too was a dream, please tell me now. Because the essay I am composing is based on the understanding that you believe the movie as it is presented with the exception of the end which you believe to be Cobb's dream.

No you're correct. I believe everything presented in the movie is what it seems to be minus Cobb waking up on the plane in the end. I was just responding to isculpt and Deckard actually said it more precisely: those jumps are more to do with editing and time constraints. So you're correct, the only thing about the movie I dispute is the ending.

So to clarify:

1) With the exception of the ending, the parts that are presented as reality are truly reality, including the time in Mombasa and the time on the plane before the Inception heist begins.

Correct.

2) The only place you diverge from this is at the end from when he "wakes up" on the plane. This you believe to Cobb's dream.

Correct.

3) You believe that totems only work when you are in someone else's dream, and that this means the fate of the top in the final seconds proves nothing about whether Cobb is in a dream or reality.

Correct.

And just to expand on why (besides what I already wrote) the whole point of having a totem and NOT letting someone else handle it is because those totem's are projections in dreams. If another person has not handled your personal totem, they have no idea how it functions (weight, feel, etc.) so they can't properly replicate it in a dream. This is why the extraction on Saito fails; the architect doesn't reproduce the rug in Saito's love nest correctly which immediately tells Saito that it's not real and it's a dream.

This is why Dom doesn't let Ariadne handle his totem and says "I can't let you touch it, that would defeat the purpose". Same reason Ariadne doesn't let Cobb handle her totem.

That's how totem's work: no one knows how they function except for the owner.

But that's also why they only work when you're in someone else's dream. They have no effect in your OWN dream, since YOU know how they're supposed to work, how they feel, their weight, balance, etc.

And don't disregard the kids, I'm still curious what you think about what I uncovered (the kids in the end are seen in a dream first). Your original statement was that the second set of kids were just there for the final scene to show the age difference between the last time Cobb saw them last. But as I showed, those same older kids are first seen in a dream with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne.

And it's significant because all the previous scenes depicting the kids show the 1st set of younger kids. The only scenes that show the 2nd set of older children is the dream scene with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne and then the ending.

Curious to hear your thoughts on that.

 

[Deckard]

My point is that he already is sure. Yes he will see what happens to the top (I keep making/using that point in my own argument).

He has faith, and doesn't need to watch it fall. He has no doubt that it will be lying on it's side when he comes in to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for his kids. We don't get to see it fall because Nolan gives us the privilege of exercising the same faith.


Thank you Christopher.

Top only keeps spinning uninterupted man, if someone touches it or he picks it up it stops. It doesn't just spin the second he takes it out, he still has to do it, it can still be manipulated. It could have bumped something and stopped, and for all he knows he'd be awake but in reality it was manipulated and he is asleep. To just walk away like that is extrememly dangerous and reckless knowing that the uncertainty is exactly what killed Mal and lead him to his current state.

 

[Maglor]

No you're correct.

So to clarify:



Correct.



Correct.



Correct.

Okay, phew!

And don't disregard the kids, I'm still curious what you think about what I uncovered (the kids in the end are seen in a dream first). Your original statement was that the second set of kids were just there for the final scene to show the age difference between the last time Cobb saw them last. But as I showed, those same older kids are first seen in a dream with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne.

And it's significant because all the previous scenes depicting the kids show the 1st set of younger kids. The only scenes that show the 2nd set of older children is the dream scene with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne and then the ending.

Curious to hear your thoughts on that.

I'm going with child labor laws as you said, Props to you for digging those screen caps up.

However, they did choose the older set for the ending. And the clothes are absolutely unique to that scene.


Can we please drop the kids now?

 

[Maglor]

Top only keeps spinning uninterupted man, if someone touches it or he picks it up it stops. It doesn't just spin the second he takes it out, he still has to do it, it can still be manipulated. It could have bumped something and stopped, and for all he knows he'd be awake but in reality it was manipulated and he is asleep. To just walk away like that is extrememly dangerous and reckless knowing that the uncertainty is exactly what killed Mal and lead him to his current state.

I can't be bothered with a 'the top might have bumped something' argument.

What is your take on why Nolan says: "I choose to believe that Cobb gets back to his kids, because I have young kids. People who have kids definitely read it differently than those who don't". He indicated that the top was not the most crucial element of the ending, saying "I've read plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations... The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care"


Doesn't seem like Nolan sees any fear in that scene.

 

[Maglor]

Im ok with that outcome because Cobb, the only character I know from Cobb's family since Mal and his children are projections and he can't be trusted(for all we know Mal could have been 500 pounds and one armed), ends up happy and getting what he wants while leaving me with a great twist. Like the end of Brazil. I simply like the idea that such a complicated movie, ends with an equally complicated idea, as opposed to just gift wrapping a happy ending for me.

I like that idea in a movie as well. In fact I love (and own) Brazil.

However, that idea is played. And for me, the ending being real IS the twist.

 

[Deckard]

What is your take on why Nolan says: "I choose to believe that Cobb gets back to his kids, because I have young kids. People who have kids definitely read it differently than those who don't". He indicated that the top was not the most crucial element of the ending, saying "I've read plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations... The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care"


Doesn't seem like Nolan sees any fear in that scene.

I agree completely with that but there are differant ways to read it as he clearly points out in the same thought saying "I choose to believe". I think further what he's saying is people with kids are seeing it from the kid perspective of if its a dream, "those poor real kids lost both parents..."

But just because he doesn't care does not mean he isn't scared. I don't care about Tigers but if you put me in the cage with one I would be scared. I just have more pressing things to deal with right now, for Cobb it was his kids and making sure he didn't make the same mistake he did when he ran out on them with that guy.

All I've said all along is there are definately differant ways to look at it, and this is what I personally believe. I completely see where your coming from too, I just like the more complicated idea as I said. I think the other events will also detirmine how you read the ending. I know I have changed my outlook on other things in the movie which has influenced my overall decision to arrive here. I feel it gives Cobb the unfettered reunion he deserves without the guilt of Mal and running out to begine with in the back of his mind.

 

[Maglor]

I just like the more complicated idea...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[Deckard]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Eh thats the easy way out imo.

 

[Devil_666]

Actually using Occam's razor the easiest way to explain the ending is that it's a dream. Because it requires the least amount of assumption and hypothesis given what we're shown.

 

[wofford29]

The point about the totems only working in others dreams shouldn't be brought up because the top is not Cobb's totem it's Mal's and he used it against her as part of his inception on her and he uses it himself as well after her death so it'll clearly work it's just a matter of someone knowing how it works.

 

[Maglor]

Actually using Occam's razor the easiest way to explain the ending is that it's a dream. Because it requires the least amount of assumption and hypothesis given what we're shown.

That's easily the most ridiculous thing I have heard in this thread. But I don't want to get ahead of myself...

 

[wofford29]

Dream Sequence (2:01:29) Boy with Long Hair (You can see it hangs down past his knee)

You can also see the girl tuck back her hair over her right ear as she kneels down.

It's been a bit since I've seen the film but isn't this scene pictured above the one where it's a flashback (not a dream) where the guy is giving Cobb the plane tickets and telling him he's got to leave asap.

edit: Just looked up the scene I was thinking of and it's the younger children in the scene I was talking about. Interestingly enough the kids have on completely different outfits right before that scene. So what's the scene above from? I can't recall that one. Is it one of the elevator levels?