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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Well to be fair, it was clearly not in their original plans to have Kylo be the only remaining Skywalker on screen in IX, but with Fisher's passing it just sort of ended up that way.

On one hand yes, you're right in that TLJ ended with Leia still alive however it still kind of gave an excuse for her not really being a huge part of the story in Episode IX the way she seemingly publicly passed the leadership torch to Poe as they were all exiting the base. So if Episode IX starts out a few years later with Leia having died of natural causes off screen and Poe in charge it won't actually feel that jarring.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Nope. $649,398,328 in 2002 dollars equals $890,419,322 in 2017.

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Nope.

It is not "inflation" (the averaged measure of all inflation indicators as calculated yearly by the Federal Reserve; the basis for generic online inflation calculators like the one you have used) - it is TICKET PRICE inflation. Yes, related in a general sense, but no - not the same thing.

Nice try though.:clap

Yes... adjusted for TICKET PRICE inflation... AOTC in fact DID make over $1B.



Now, get to work on that AOTC "A" Cinemascore. Suggestion: set up a gofundme, raise a quick $10k, and send a discrete e-mail to Cinemascore "asking" them to "take another look" at their AOTC results as you "suspect" it might be closer to a C. Hey, it's from 15 years ago - ya never know.:wink1:

Some people may be being less than concise with their language in trying to convey their feelings on this movie, likely because a lot of it is emotion.... but I don't think many people are saying that the movie was "Bad", in other words poorly made, or badly acted, etc.

Poorly made? No - convincing effects, solid (not great imo - very PT at times) production design, decent enough score. Badly acted? Ridley is a bit bland and CF's facial movement had issues, but Driver and Dern were great as always and I'm a Isaac fan.

But... Leia Poppins, Lactating Sea-cow, "I'll hold...", Leia shooting Poe, Holdo as a character, ALL of Canto Bight, Luke dying in a CGI shot, the Battle of Not-Hoth, Luke not telling anyone about his "stalling for time" plan (and Poe randomly figuring it out and if he didn't Luke's whole exercise would be POINTLESS,) the bizarre time-jump back to Rey holding out the saber to Luke after the battle - to name a handful off the top of my head... this stuff was indeed bad, it just depends on your point of view whether taken together, all this adds to "the movie was bad."
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Hmm, I hadn't considered a time jump but that would be a nice and simple way to explain away her absence.

Plus, as much as I enjoyed TLJ, one aspect I missed was that 1-3 year gap that seemed to exist between previous movies, and seeing how the characters had changed and taken on new looks or responsibilities in that time.

Really hoping we get to see something like that for IX.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

I don't envy the writers when it comes to handling Leia's absence. If you jump the story too far, it's going to be tough to explain how Kylo hasn't extinguished the Resistance now that their numbers are so low, especially given how obsessed he is with Rey (who is with them). Maybe they'll have Leia realize (off screen, obviously) that Luke was right in thinking that more good could be done from the spirit realm. Maybe she offers herself up to the Force to join Luke and reach her son that way. Luke could be on screen, while Leia reaches her son in a more implied way off screen. Who knows?

Well to be fair, it was clearly not in their original plans to have Kylo be the only remaining Skywalker on screen in IX, but with Fisher's passing it just sort of ended up that way.

Although I guess it could still be enough to have Luke around as a Force Ghost. Especially if he could interact with the real world the way Yoda did...

I obviously wasn't suggesting that Rian Johnson was responsible for the absence of Leia moving forward. In fact, his over-the-top way of demonstrating Leia's Force abilities might have been to set her up for the major role she was going to have in Episode IX. Lucasfilm has said that TFA was to focus more on Han, TLJ to focus on Luke, and Ep. IX to focus on Leia. My guess is that "ghost Luke" almost has to be a part of the story now to "fill in" for the role Leia was to play. It would also help tie the films back to the Skywalker saga (where these nine films belong, IMO).

The complaint I raised about Rian Johnson killing most of the connections to the Skywalker legacy (that The Force Awakens left open) has more to do with the lightsaber toss, the Rey/Kylo dynamic, and the reveal about Rey's lineage. There seemed (to me) to be an effort made by Rian Johnson to purposely get rid of the Skywalker Saga elements. That's what I object to.

These nine stories were initially intended to be as much about the Skywalker drama as anything else. In TFA, JJ Abrahms left plenty of directions for that premise to be fulfilled. Rey could have easily been connected to the Skywalker saga (even if not directly related). When fans got upset in TFA that Leia embraced Rey instead of Chewie after what happened to Han, there could have been a connection between the two that would have made more sense of that. The lightsaber calling to Rey could have been because of a connection to explain that scene differently (or at all). Kylo seeming to feel "familiar" with Rey could have been explained the same way. And the lightsaber handoff could have been a way to bridge the past to the future. Instead, all those storylines got tossed aside as quick as the lightsaber did in an effort to bury the past and move forward (one of the themes of TLJ).

I recognize that this is a matter of personal preference, and not really a knock on his film-making. But, the Skywalker Saga could have been incorporated through the openings that TFA established and helped TLJ seem less disjointed from the rest of the franchise. It wouldn't have fixed everything that makes many fans think that TLJ didn't "feel" like Star Wars; but it could have helped.

I've been really stunned to read Rian Johnson explaining that he doesn't know where they'll take these things in Episode IX. This was always going to be a trilogy, so how would it not make sense to plot out a full story (7 - 9) first and just let each director play with how to present that story? Otherwise, you run the risk of not only creating a sense of disjointed chapters, but also of losing sight of what the main story of Star Wars was always supposed to be about. These are supposed to be three sequels, not spin-offs. The integrity of the main story needs to be preserved in order to justify the "sequel" label.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

But... Leia Poppins, Lactating Sea-cow, "I'll hold...", Leia shooting Poe, Holdo as a character, ALL of Canto Bight, Luke dying in a CGI shot, the Battle of Not-Hoth, Luke not telling anyone about his "stalling for time" plan (and Poe randomly figuring it out and if he didn't Luke's whole exercise would be POINTLESS,) the bizarre time-jump back to Rey holding out the saber to Luke after the battle - to name a handful off the top of my head... this stuff was indeed bad, it just depends on your point of view whether taken together, all this adds to "the movie was bad."

Eh, the only one of those I didn't care for much was Canto Bight. And even then it wasn't "bad" but merely kind of dull and unnecessary. And while the twist involving Holdo didn't quite work, I still liked the conflict between her and Poe. And stuff like the sea-cow I just thought was quirky and fun.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Nope.

It is not "inflation" (the averaged measure of all inflation indicators as calculated yearly by the Federal Reserve; the basis for generic online inflation calculators like the one you have used) - it is TICKET PRICE inflation. Yes, related in a general sense, but no - not the same thing.

Nice try though.:clap

Yes... adjusted for TICKET PRICE inflation... AOTC in fact DID make over $1B.

Prove it then.

I just clicked the "2017 adjuster" on boxofficemojo for AOTC's domestic of $310 million which converted to $464 million. It wouldn't let me adjust the foreign amount of $338 million so I went to The Two Towers (another 2002 release) which made $342 million domestic (more than AOTC's foreign earnings) and adjusted that which came to $511 million. $464 + $511 = $975 million. Or not a billion. Heh heh.

:nana:

(So you were correct in that I looked at the wrong calculator but it's all moot since even adjusted for "ticket inflation" AOTC never hit the cool 1B mark.)
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Hmm, I hadn't considered a time jump but that would be a nice and simple way to explain away her absence.

Plus, as much as I enjoyed TLJ, one aspect I missed was that 1-3 year gap that seemed to exist between previous movies, and seeing how the characters had changed and taken on new looks or responsibilities in that time.

Really hoping we get to see something like that for IX.

Yeah I really hope that the next film allows for several years to have passed. Let Rey advance in training through her study of the Jedi texts or whatever so that people can stop complaining about her skill level, say that Leia died peacefully off-screen, etc.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

The complaint I raised about Rian Johnson killing most of the connections to the Skywalker legacy (that The Force Awakens left open) has more to do with the lightsaber toss, the Rey/Kylo dynamic, and the reveal about Rey's lineage. There seemed (to me) to be an effort made by Rian Johnson to purposely get rid of the Skywalker Saga elements. That's what I object to.

Fair enough, but personally I didn't see any of that as Johnson getting rid of or brushing aside the Skywalker saga, but more just a part of slowly winding up that story (since we only have one movie to go), and about Luke allowing someone else to carry on his legacy so that they can do things in a better way. And that perhaps the fate of the galaxy shouldn't depend soley on this one bloodline.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Prove it then.

I just clicked the "2017 adjuster" on boxofficemojo for AOTC's domestic of $310 million which converted to $464 million. It wouldn't let me adjust the foreign amount of $338 million so I went to The Two Towers (another 2002 release) which made $342 million domestic (more than AOTC's foreign earnings) and adjusted that which came to $511 million. $464 + $511 = $975 million. Or not a billion. Heh heh.

:nana:

(So you were correct in that I looked at the wrong calculator but it's all moot since even adjusted for "ticket inflation" AOTC never hit the cool 1B mark.)

Non-pros talking like pros, pocket calculators at the ready.:lol

... and cheering in victory as they come up with a number that's... 2% off a billion? And a number that's almost ONE HUNDRED MILLION higher than their last?:lol

Khev, Khev... does the apologist in you have no shame?

Now if you REALLY want to play this game... and watch me definitively, factually and methodically narrow your last remaining $25m to nothing (and do the ALS challenge on your original "$890 million" calculation,) I can explain in more detail. Ya wanna?:lol

It's actually very interesting... because the multiplier was in fact influenced/distorted most by one release in late 2017 (that a certain studio substantially "altered the deal" with theater owners on) ... and you KNOW which one!
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Now if you REALLY want to play this game... and watch me definitively, factually and methodically narrow your last remaining $25m to nothing (and do the ALS challenge on your original "$890 million" calculation,) I can explain in more detail. Ya wanna?:lol

Quit stalling and back up your numbers. You claimed that AOTC exceeds a billion adjusted for ticket inflation so prove it. No need to do this little dance. If you're right then you're right, I don't care. I just haven't seen any proof from you and boxofficemojo's 2002 -> 2017 calculator says that AOTC didn't cross the threshold so if you think you can prove otherwise then go for it.

I'm not the one who implodes when proven wrong so I can handle it...if indeed you can prove me wrong. ;)
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Quit stalling and back up your numbers. You claimed that AOTC exceeds a billion adjusted for ticket inflation so prove it. No need to do this little dance. If you're right then you're right, I don't care. I just haven't seen any proof from you and boxofficemojo's 2002 -> 2017 calculator says that AOTC didn't cross the threshold so if you think you can prove otherwise then go for it.

I'm not the one who implodes when proven wrong so I can handle it...if indeed you can prove me wrong. ;)

The guy who's digging in his heels, trying to hold the line that 9 3/4 isn't close 10? Oh Khev.:slap:lol

Adjusted, even with your current calculation, TLJ is only going to earn about 30% more than AOTC did. And AOTC was in 1,100 less theaters.

Back to you when I have time.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

I am on the hook for ROTJ Luke....

This would be a second for me, and I don’t have room for seconds...

BUT if I did , I would be considering this and Old Luke as a progression display


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

I joined this thread day one to discuss the possibility of this figure (which would awesome!). Now it’s gone in a couple of directions (the debate over box office dollars?). However, I really enjoyed catching up on today’s posts about opinions and feelings toward the film. I feel I have a better understanding of the movie’s reception. Thank you to all who are sharing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

See ya then. :wave

:D


Ooookay. So... ticket prices, as tabulated by NAoTO are $5.80 for 2002, and $8.93 for 2017* (*even though TLJ's theatrical run will be 90% in 2018, while AOTC's was all well within 2002, we must use the 2017 price.) What we do is divide 8.93 by 5.80, to get our 1.54 multiplier. We then multiply the AOTC worldwide ($649,398,328) take by 1.54. This multiplication takes us to:

$1,000,073,425 - AOTC WORLDWIDE, (TICKET PRICE) INFLATION ADJUSTED


That's over a billion, but only by a bit. Here's where it gets interesting, and the reason I said "over a billion" regarding AOTC, rather than "about a billion."

See, Disney majorly changed all the rules on theater owners with TLJ. They placed CRAZY restrictions on them (for example, they must play TLJ for EVERY showing for a FULL thirty days without pulling it from a single theater or they get a 5% penalty) but more importantly, our friends in the Team Disney Building also gouged another 10-15% out of theater owners, taking 65% instead of 50-55% as had been the norm for many, many years.

Media coverage:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/disney...heaters-on-star-wars-the-last-jedi-1509528603

So what did theater owners do in response? Anecdotally, they did what anyone would do - passed it on to the customer. This sorta historic thing happened in the last two weeks of the year, after the NAoTO had calculated/posted its 2017 average ticket price. Because it's impossible to tabulate what those TLJ-derived ticket price increases were (and it wouldn't have been even uniform across exhibitors,) we can just say that the actual 2017 average ticket price in December is "slightly higher" than that $8.93.

So the irony is, Disney's gouge regarding TLJ actually slightly increased the multiplier for ticket price inflation adjustment by a small amount, something that likely bumps AOTC's adjusted gross up more firmly to $30m-$50m over a billion.

But the key thing to remember when comparing the $1B worldwide that AOTC made to the $1.35B worldwide that TLJ is going to make:

AOTC was released on 1,100 FEWER screens than TLJ domestically, and in 2002 the "BRIC" markets that include China and Russia basically DID NOT EXIST, meaning MUCH fewer screens internationally for AOTC also.

For this reason, I would argue that despite the 35% difference between their final grosses: TLJ and AOTC performed roughly the same theatrically.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Okaaaay!:wave:wave:wave

Yikes - I always tense up when dealing with the human centipede of threadcrappers.:lol

Ooookay. So... ticket prices, as tabulated by NAoTO are $5.80 for 2002, and $8.93 for 2017* (*even though TLJ's theatrical run will be 90% in 2018, while AOTC's was all well within 2002, we must use the 2017 price.) What we do is divide 8.93 by 5.80, to get our 1.54 multiplier. We then multiply the AOTC worldwide ($649,398,328) take by 1.54. This multiplication takes us to:

$1,000,073,425 - AOTC WORLDWIDE, (TICKET PRICE) INFLATION ADJUSTED

Yay, you finally showed your work. :clap Good boy. :)

I ran your 1.54 multiplier against Spider-Man's earnings and got the correct 2002 -> 2017 adjustment for that film as well so it looks like you are correct. :duff

You saw the links I was using to calculate AOTC and the best I could seemingly do was to hit boxofficemojo's built in multiplier for domestic and foreign numbers separately and then add the results but it didn't say just what the multiplier *was* and it looks like it had a different number (too low) for the foreign amounts. Or did it? :devil

But I'm fine going by your calculations and now we've got our adjusted number for the lowly AOTC which will *remain* the lowest grossing SW film and rightly so since it's by far the worst of them all. :)
 
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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Yay, you finally showed your work. :clap Good boy. :)

I ran your 1.54 multiplier against Spider-Man's earnings and got the correct 2002 -> 2017 adjustment for that film as well so it looks like you are correct. :duff

You saw the links I was using to calculate AOTC and the best I could seemingly do was to hit boxofficemojo's built in multiplier for domestic and foreign numbers separately and then add the results but it didn't say just what the multiplier *was* and it looks like it had a different number (too low) for the foreign amounts. Or did it? :devil

But I'm fine going by your calculations and now we've got our adjusted number for the lowly AOTC which will *remain* the lowest grossing SW film and rightly so since it's by far the worst of them all. :)

:hi5::duff

Everyone seems to be throwing AOTC under the bus (I saw it once back then, liked the Jango/Kenobi battle and that's it, and have had zero desire to see it since) but you have to give it credit where its due - adjusted, it IS financially roughly in the same ball-park as TLJ.

I have been doing these quite detailed anlayses and projections on big films because even Deadline and BOM don't quite get the full picture, jumping on the "Billion!" bandwagon without really getting it (the same pattern you see with release after release.)

As much as I disliked TLJ, quality-wise I would definitely not place it on-par with AOTC or any of the PT, even from a technical perspective. Making AOTC's adjusted billion even more shocking.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

Another way of doing it is take AOTC's inflation-adjusted domestic gross ($477,473,400) which accounted for 47.8% of its total.

Multiply that by 2.092 to get $998,874,352. Close enough to a bil?

(I just *knew* AOTC was more popular than people thought! ;) )

Or can you not extrapolate the domestic inflation rate worldwide?
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - SPECULA

So we’ve expended a lot of time and energy to show that close to the same number of tickets were sold in 2002 as in 2017 for entries in the most successful and fan loyal franchise in cinematic history. But I’m not sure what we think we’ve proven.

One thing is clear, whatever we think we’ve proven has exactly ZERO to to with how good either movie was, or how much fans loved or hated either. All we done is to show conclusively that Star Wars is popular. Reminds me of Government funded research showing that people tend to like sex and Christmas. Star Wars is box office proof. That’s why Disney bought it. So what..?
 
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