I am amazed at the depth of Alien knowledge some of the board members have. Putting the pro or con debate aside, i gotta admit ive learned a lot from this post. thanks guys.
Hot Toys - MMS 106 - Alien - BIG CHAP collectible figure
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Dude...just leave this thread if you can't stand this figure. I can't take all this back and forth over nothing.
It's a F@$&ING TOY!!!! Leave it alone.
It's a F@$&ING TOY!!!! Leave it alone.
creecher
Such is Life - Ned Kelly
Having fun on your weenie lonesome Ween? I had the same trouble and know that anything that impedes the opening of a new parcel is cause to take a breath, make a post, and get that sucker on out. I use my knees, elbows, hands, various forms of support and lean into it. Or you can open an end and another and remove the inner packaging to relieve stress on the outer packaging.
Push, Ween! PUSH!
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Yes. It is a F@$&ING TOY....but this is a F@$&ING TOY discussion forum. Where we discuss the F@$&ING TOYS we love...or hate.
Yes I get it. It's just that we have heard your opinion plenty. We know it won't change. We know what you think of it.
How many times do you have to repeat yourself?
If there is something I don't like guess what...I don't even bother with the thread. It's pointless to talk about something which angers/frustrates/annoys/looks bad to me.
Why don't you leave this to the people who like the figure.
Hello Abake,
Thanks for the reply. I don't think that I've deliberately ignored anything, I think have thoroughly reviewed every source I can get my hands on, but you seem to be ignoring many of the core points I made, and you are still revolving around the central argument that the HT's ALIEN isn't screen accurate and it's likeness doesn't represent what's seen in the movie; a generic version that Joseph created without giving it all that much respect in relation to the original. I think it is relatively accurate to the screen and Gigers' vision and sculpts, and I don't think that it's wrong to suggest. I don't think I'm the only one that can see things differently for you and the others. Why get hung up on the figure having to precisely imitate a particular facial expression that's seen when the ALIEN is visible? Do you really think that's it's possible without all the lighting and FX, or do you think they play no real part in the Alien's overall appearance in the film?
All of the statues and figures out there are sculpted in positions and exhibit facial expressions and artistic licence that doesn't represent what's seen in the movie, all of them. Where do you draw the line and accept that there isn't a single figure that can represent every scene that we see because there were many suits and heads used that were all built with slight differences. You don't seem to factor that in or acknowledge it in any way.
The nature of the suits and heads constructions, maintenance and repair dictated varying degrees of subtle differences; like the domes shape, ribbing and finer facial details and arrangements etc. The Rambaldi head had a different appearance than the other five or so heads, so using that particular head design would accurately represent the total ALIEN III design that we seen in the film, and it wouldn't have the overlook of the design that majority associate with it, it would look totally different that any statue we've seen out there so far.
As far as I'm aware, Giger made a polyester statue that was formed from a rough plaster cast of Balajio. Then he created his basic design over the polyester form and the basic plaster and cork chip negatives were created from that. The moulded components were cleaned and trimmed before being extensively customised and modified with other latex details, convoluted tubing etc.Finally being painted and airbrushed etc. Other elements and details of the suits and heads were also cast using plaster and plasticine components that Giger carved and sculpted for the hero and stunt suits; like the feet, glove and finger elements etc. The plasterers would make an accurate cast of the polyester masters and then carve and refine the basic and finer details as accurately as the moulding process they were using at the time would allow for. All the latex was hand painted in to the mould in a laborious process that slowly built up layers until the desired thickness in all the areas of the mould was achieved. That same process was used to produce various components of the suit that were also tailored to Bolaji and the stunt-men Eddie Powell and Roy Scammelland for the specific requirement of the days filming.
There were at the very least 6 heads production heads made, one mechanized, one half mechanised, two unmechanized and a few more made of foam rubber etc. for the stunt-men. The plaster moulds used were only capable or reproducing a fairly basic representation because of the complex curves and shapes involved, and most of the fine detail was added using plaster and plasticine, glued on rubber tubes, detailing etc. and thus, no two heads were constructed identically, they all had variations with the shape of the domes and muscle and tendon details around the mouth. Various artist were involved because of critical time restraints. But Giger.would ultimately supervise and help shape and paint all of them to insure that most of the heads stayed fairly faithful and accurately represented his vision; constrained with the limitations of the materials available in the day that were required for the various tasks, and Scott and Co's artistic crimp.
As the heads and suits were patched up and repainted, those minor individualities and peculiarities would obviously become more apparent. But I think that was fine with Scott in light (forgive the pun) of his various comment about wanting the audience to experience a constantly changing ALIEN so they didn't get a fix on the exact shape and details for the purposes of suspense; so we would use our imagination to complete and add additional layers to terrifying images; heightening the fear and suspense surrounding the creature. It wouldn't interfere with what he want to achieve, and ultimately contributed in immeasurable ways to the overall effect.The Alien was rapidly growing, ageing, changing.
The mechanical heads were created using other techniques and Giger would have made sure that those heads were as faithful as possible to his art; fitted it in with the overall look of the other heads as best as possible. Again, those slight differences in the dome and other facial features appearance and dimensions were perfectly and completely compatible with Scott's film vision. Giger originally intended to go in a more organic direction with the set and the ultimate Alien III design but Scott and Co ultimately had the final decision witht he designs and the rest is history.
The mechanized heads minus the lighting, camera lenses/shot angles, FX and tons of KY jelly etc. wouldn't have anywhere near the impact they do without them. His head was the ugliest of the lot, it had a different appearance to the rest because of the extra mechanical features etc. Scott and Co worked very hard and would have gone through many different angles, perspective and lighting arrangement to achieve the final version we see in the film, you can't separate them; they all very much essential to each other. That's why I have to laugh a little when I read people saying that it looks nothing like the shots we see in the film, what else can you do.
I have seen Giger's concept drawings and photos showing the leg "grills' in positions that closely mirror the design of the HTs figure, but again, there really isn't enough material out there to say if the position and features are totally correct or incorrect. The Giger statue argument isn't all that convincing to me because it was only a guide for the moulds and isn't representative of all the positions details on all the suits I've seen. It's not even really known if it was the exact sculpt the ALIEN III is based on, but I think it probably was. I think Joseph wouldn't have been able to avoid it as a reference, I can definitely see elements in his sculpt.
I don't have any real problems with the small paragraph of Hot Toys claims, that probably has more to do with the marketing department than anything Joseph would have claimed. I think he's smart enough to know that it's not something you can claim with any single ALIEN figure, you would need a set of them, and because you would need to recreate the lighting and FX that were used in the original film to achieve that perfect film look, and that's obviously totally impractical in the real world, even for the hardest or hardcore fans. But I basically agree with the asertion that the figure is the best 1/6 scale posable Giger ALIEN available.
I think many sculptors get fixated on recreating the biting scenes and try blending the mechanized heads with the other head shapes and designs, but to me it makes the heads look like they are all mouth, like the NECA and Marmit etc. They have slightly overly exagerated features proportions and details to me. They exaggerate and overemphasise the fierceness' of the monster by playing with proportions and elements of the sculpts and paint. Something for everyones imagination, I guess.
I like them all for different reasons, but I'm realistic enough to know that I'll never be able to own any one version of the ALIEN that encomapses everything that's seen in film. I have many versions, but nothing that will ever perfectly capture what's seen on screen - never. I'm cool with that because I have a good understanding about the techniques use to create what's seen on screen. Even if it is possible, you would still require a set of figures, not a single one.
If you can honestly say that you think the HTs ALIEN doesn't represent; isn't based on Giger's concept and what's seen in the movie then who am I to argue with your perception and imagination etc. I tend to look at things holistically and don't get hung up on minor details that may or may not have been part of the movie used suits and heads. We don't have enough high resolution photos and detailed reference materials available to do that with any real clarity or certainty.
I don't want to get drawn into a hopeless debate over our individual visions and versions of the ALIEN, it's pointless when everyone sees something different. There are certain constants, but they have more to do with the overall shape of the creature, rather than the absolute specifics of the finer details. I don't want to get bogged down in a conversation about the dimensions of convoluted hoses and the relative positions of abstract shapes and element used in the suits and heads design; life is just too short for all that... Well, maybe for a while if we were discussing it face to face.
I'm sure your opinion of the figure will change when you receive it and see it in 3D, I think you'll be happier with it because you've probably only seen 2D photos of it on the web. You would think it's just a giant ugly mouth with many of the pics commonly used to criticise it. That's my take on all this.
Yeah, absolutely fabulous pics, DG. I really think they are easily the best photos I've seen of this figure; I'm very impressed.
That last pic steals the show for sure man; love the glint effect.
This cracks me up. Funny how some people justify a sculptor that just did his own thing on the HT's Alien figure. Say what you want but for 150 bucks it should be way more accurate. To bad these guys don't treat any of their Alien figures like TDN. Cool Alien yes but it could be better and should be. As a big fan I want it more accurate because in the movie I can't see the whole thing. I think that's why so many want it as accurate as posible. The figure should let you see what you couldn't see so you'll know at last what it is. By the way the Alien doesn't change much at all in the movie. One is short and one is tall but both have the same detail. Open your eyes or get some new glasses and enjoy what diehard Alien fans know should be a more accurate figure. Abake know his S when it comes to Alien.
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I dont want your opinion to change. But I want this justifying thing to stop.
And if I leave...this thread becomes boring.
"Cool figger!"
"Awesome!"
"Sweet!"
No discussion. Plus, I only chime in when someone tries to justify it. And I mean "This is why the did it." Or..."It looks just like it! The mouth looks like the creature...who was in the dark..blah blah blah".
Not "I love this figure! Dispite the innacurracies.":
dedguy
Super Freak
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I dont want your opinion to change. But I want this justifying thing to stop.
And if I leave...this thread becomes boring.
"Cool figger!"
"Awesome!"
"Sweet!"
No discussion. Plus, I only chime in when someone tries to justify it. And I mean "This is why the did it." Or..."It looks just like it! The mouth looks like the creature...who was in the dark..blah blah blah".
Not "I love this figure! Dispite the innacurracies.":
So you basically only want your side of the argument to continue but want the other side to stop? You're not making any sense.
What I gather this thread ammounts to is this.
People that like it want to enjoy it and not see it ripped apart constantly.
People that are unhappy with the inaccurracies feel the need to point out that it's inaccurrate when people say that it might be.
I think the thread would be healthiest if there was a general consensus that it's not a 100% accurrate Giger Alien figure but it's kickass despite it's inaccurracies. That way the happy people can go on being happy, and the dissatisfied don't need to continually prove their point to the people who don't see it.
People that like it want to enjoy it and not see it ripped apart constantly.
People that are unhappy with the inaccurracies feel the need to point out that it's inaccurrate when people say that it might be.
I think the thread would be healthiest if there was a general consensus that it's not a 100% accurrate Giger Alien figure but it's kickass despite it's inaccurracies. That way the happy people can go on being happy, and the dissatisfied don't need to continually prove their point to the people who don't see it.
Totally agree MaulFan. Well said.
abake
Rex Tremendae Majestatis
Hello Abake,
Thanks for the reply. I don't think that I've deliberately ignored anything, I think have thoroughly reviewed every source I can get my hands on, but you seem to be ignoring many of the core points I made, and you are still revolving around the central argument that the HT's ALIEN isn't screen accurate and it's likeness doesn't represent what's seen in the movie; a generic version that Joseph created without giving it all that much respect in relation to the original. I think it is relatively accurate to the screen and Gigers' vision and sculpts, and I don't think that it's wrong to suggest. I don't think I'm the only one that can see things differently for you and the others. Why get hung up on the figure having to precisely imitate a particular facial expression that's seen when the ALIEN is visible? Do you really think that's it's possible without all the lighting and FX, or do you think they play no real part in the Alien's overall appearance in the film?
All of the statues and figures out there are sculpted in positions and exhibit facial expressions and artistic licence that doesn't represent what's seen in the movie, all of them. Where do you draw the line and accept that there isn't a single figure that can represent every scene that we see because there were many suits and heads used that were all built with slight differences. You don't seem to factor that in or acknowledge it in any way.
The nature of the suits and heads constructions, maintenance and repair dictated varying degrees of subtle differences; like the domes shape, ribbing and finer facial details and arrangements etc. The Rambaldi head had a different appearance than the other five or so heads, so using that particular head design would accurately represent the total ALIEN III design that we seen in the film, and it wouldn't have the overlook of the design that majority associate with it, it would look totally different that any statue we've seen out there so far.
As far as I'm aware, Giger made a polyester statue that was formed from a rough plaster cast of Balajio. Then he created his basic design over the polyester form and the basic plaster and cork chip negatives were created from that. The moulded components were cleaned and trimmed before being extensively customised and modified with other latex details, convoluted tubing etc.Finally being painted and airbrushed etc. Other elements and details of the suits and heads were also cast using plaster and plasticine components that Giger carved and sculpted for the hero and stunt suits; like the feet, glove and finger elements etc. The plasterers would make an accurate cast of the polyester masters and then carve and refine the basic and finer details as accurately as the moulding process they were using at the time would allow for. All the latex was hand painted in to the mould in a laborious process that slowly built up layers until the desired thickness in all the areas of the mould was achieved. That same process was used to produce various components of the suit that were also tailored to Bolaji and the stunt-men Eddie Powell and Roy Scammelland for the specific requirement of the days filming.
There were at the very least 6 heads production heads made, one mechanized, one half mechanised, two unmechanized and a few more made of foam rubber etc. for the stunt-men. The plaster moulds used were only capable or reproducing a fairly basic representation because of the complex curves and shapes involved, and most of the fine detail was added using plaster and plasticine, glued on rubber tubes, detailing etc. and thus, no two heads were constructed identically, they all had variations with the shape of the domes and muscle and tendon details around the mouth. Various artist were involved because of critical time restraints. But Giger.would ultimately supervise and help shape and paint all of them to insure that most of the heads stayed fairly faithful and accurately represented his vision; constrained with the limitations of the materials available in the day that were required for the various tasks, and Scott and Co's artistic crimp.
As the heads and suits were patched up and repainted, those minor individualities and peculiarities would obviously become more apparent. But I think that was fine with Scott in light (forgive the pun) of his various comment about wanting the audience to experience a constantly changing ALIEN so they didn't get a fix on the exact shape and details for the purposes of suspense; so we would use our imagination to complete and add additional layers to terrifying images; heightening the fear and suspense surrounding the creature. It wouldn't interfere with what he want to achieve, and ultimately contributed in immeasurable ways to the overall effect.The Alien was rapidly growing, ageing, changing.
The mechanical heads were created using other techniques and Giger would have made sure that those heads were as faithful as possible to his art; fitted it in with the overall look of the other heads as best as possible. Again, those slight differences in the dome and other facial features appearance and dimensions were perfectly and completely compatible with Scott's film vision. Giger originally intended to go in a more organic direction with the set and the ultimate Alien III design but Scott and Co ultimately had the final decision witht he designs and the rest is history.
The mechanized heads minus the lighting, camera lenses/shot angles, FX and tons of KY jelly etc. wouldn't have anywhere near the impact they do without them. His head was the ugliest of the lot, it had a different appearance to the rest because of the extra mechanical features etc. Scott and Co worked very hard and would have gone through many different angles, perspective and lighting arrangement to achieve the final version we see in the film, you can't separate them; they all very much essential to each other. That's why I have to laugh a little when I read people saying that it looks nothing like the shots we see in the film, what else can you do.
I have seen Giger's concept drawings and photos showing the leg "grills' in positions that closely mirror the design of the HTs figure, but again, there really isn't enough material out there to say if the position and features are totally correct or incorrect. The Giger statue argument isn't all that convincing to me because it was only a guide for the moulds and isn't representative of all the positions details on all the suits I've seen. It's not even really known if it was the exact sculpt the ALIEN III is based on, but I think it probably was. I think Joseph wouldn't have been able to avoid it as a reference, I can definitely see elements in his sculpt.
I don't have any real problems with the small paragraph of Hot Toys claims, that probably has more to do with the marketing department than anything Joseph would have claimed. I think he's smart enough to know that it's not something you can claim with any single ALIEN figure, you would need a set of them, and because you would need to recreate the lighting and FX that were used in the original film to achieve that perfect film look, and that's obviously totally impractical in the real world, even for the hardest or hardcore fans. But I basically agree with the asertion that the figure is the best 1/6 scale posable Giger ALIEN available.
I think many sculptors get fixated on recreating the biting scenes and try blending the mechanized heads with the other head shapes and designs, but to me it makes the heads look like they are all mouth, like the NECA and Marmit etc. They have slightly overly exagerated features proportions and details to me. They exaggerate and overemphasise the fierceness' of the monster by playing with proportions and elements of the sculpts and paint. Something for everyones imagination, I guess.
I like them all for different reasons, but I'm realistic enough to know that I'll never be able to own any one version of the ALIEN that encomapses everything that's seen in film. I have many versions, but nothing that will ever perfectly capture what's seen on screen - never. I'm cool with that because I have a good understanding about the techniques use to create what's seen on screen. Even if it is possible, you would still require a set of figures, not a single one.
If you can honestly say that you think the HTs ALIEN doesn't represent; isn't based on Giger's concept and what's seen in the movie then who am I to argue with your perception and imagination etc. I tend to look at things holistically and don't get hung up on minor details that may or may not have been part of the movie used suits and heads. We don't have enough high resolution photos and detailed reference materials available to do that with any real clarity or certainty.
I don't want to get drawn into a hopeless debate over our individual visions and versions of the ALIEN, it's pointless when everyone sees something different. There are certain constants, but they have more to do with the overall shape of the creature, rather than the absolute specifics of the finer details. I don't want to get bogged down in a conversation about the dimensions of convoluted hoses and the relative positions of abstract shapes and element used in the suits and heads design; life is just too short for all that... Well, maybe for a while if we were discussing it face to face.
I'm sure your opinion of the figure will change when you receive it and see it in 3D, I think you'll be happier with it because you've probably only seen 2D photos of it on the web. You would think it's just a giant ugly mouth with many of the pics commonly used to criticise it. That's my take on all this.
Yeah, absolutely fabulous pics, DG. I really think they are easily the best photos I've seen of this figure; I'm very impressed.
That last pic steals the show for sure man; love the glint effect.
Excellent post ALV!
While I agree with you on many points, I'm a bit doubtful on others.
Yes, Giger did make his statue over a cast of Bolaji and yes, that was used to make the moulds for he latex suit(s), and Giger goes so far as to say that the moulds suffered and had to be repaired often due to the extensive tests made to achieve the (in the end un-achievable) transaprent suit. So it stands to reason that minor details might have been "fixed" or changed, but there is no evidence to suggest that the suits were fundamentally different. As a matter of fact, all the detail that can be seen in photographs and behind the scenes footage of the suit and the statue point to the fact that it was for all intents and purposes identical in all its "versions".
I'll take the lower legs as an example.
If you look at the final page of the "Book of Alien" you can see the famous stooping pose. Look at the lower legs. Now go the "Giger's Alien" book, page 65: photograph "O" shows Eddy Butler (one of Giger's assistants) and other assistants holding up the "pants" of the suit right out of the mold. On the same page, photograph "Q" you can see Eddy Powell (stuntman) with the stunt suit on. In both cases you can see the detailing on the lower legs. Page 67, photograph "T", Bolaji's suit and again you can see the detailing of the lower legs. In none of those instances do you see the ribbing or grills on the side of the calves like Tsang sculpted them.
And the statue, of which we have lots of photos, shows clearly that the suits followed the mold of the legs as sculpted by Giger.
I'm sure that the same kind of evidence in different suits and the statue can be found for the forearms, but I'm too lazy to look it up now...
See, despite the fact that the had to make different suits and heads, and despite the fact that they must've made slight changes from one to the next, other than small details and more or less detailing and changes in the paint, the suits were the same. And they followed the detailing of the statue. So, again, my point is why not just follow the statue if you wanted to strive for accuracy? All the other accurate collectibles did just that.
And the matter of the head also remains the same: even though it is impossible to recreate Giger's sculpt as re-tooled by Rambaldi (who himself states that he strove not to change Giger's vision out of respect for the artist), it is possible to come damn close.
I understand your point that there were many different heads (Giger states that there were six heads used: a mechanical head, a remote controlled head, a half mechanical head, two non-mechanical heads and one stunt head) and many different suits, but the fact remains that the suits all looked the same and the heads all had the same look, even though some were simplified. And it's still undeniable that the HT face, mouth, forearms and lower legs don't correspond to any filmic of photographic evidence anybody has been able to uncover.
So, in a way, it's not even that much about perception or imagination, it's the simple fact that there is a statue that all the suits were molded off, and there is a lot of photographic and filmic evidence of the "hero" mechanized head (in case the sculptor doesn't want to use the statue's head as reference) to use as reference material. That's all I'm arguing about. I like the HT figure, I fell let down that it's not more accurate, but I'm going to enjoy it as much as I enjoy my McF alien (another cool interpretation).
One of these days I have to scan the Giger book, there's just so many cool pics there to share...
Anyway, I'm glad some other members are enjoying our "conversation", but I think we've each made our points sufficiently clear by now!
Cool discussion dude, thanks again and let's continue it via PM if you feel like it, to unclutter the thread.
It needs more pics and less words!
Thanks to all for your patience with our ravings! BTW, I was surprised to find that a-n-a-l gets censored here! How else am I to describe my retentiveness? Alien-retentive?
dedguy
Super Freak
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I honestly don't think a 100% accurate original alien from the film Alien is possible, that said the Hot Toys could be closer, and that said I wouldn't be able to tell you which one was more accurate without a lot of studying, which to me, makes the whole thing moot. If you have to study and work to tell if you like something or not then you're doing it wrong.
For me anyway. I'm sure some people do all the leg work because they don't like and are trying to figure out why. That's not me though.
For me anyway. I'm sure some people do all the leg work because they don't like and are trying to figure out why. That's not me though.
dedguy
Super Freak
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Oh, and I understand the issues people have. I would not have bought it when it just had one thumb and the crazy evil alien eyes on the skull. It's just for me personally I don't care at all about the other minor issues (some which I do think are imagined and others which I'm sure are true). They're just too small to matter for me especially given how little you can see in the film of the suit.
abake
Rex Tremendae Majestatis
Don't know about you guys, but I'm having a fun discussion with ALV!
Hey there Kyle! Good to see you around dude.
Are we any closer to seeing you tackle the Alien in 1/6 glory? You know we want it and you know you want it!
Sabres21768
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I totally agree with this post.
And for the record...I'm enjoying reading the discussion between ALV and Abake.
Dinosoar Daz
Super Freak
Well I was really really careful but
Still he looks great in that pose on my shelves.
Still he looks great in that pose on my shelves.
It's refreshing to see a civil discussion going on, and a thoughtful one at that.
"I like this figure despite it's inaccuracies" pretty much sums it up for me.
The big thing for me was and is the mouth. Sorry to bring it up again but that's the one single thing I would fix if I had a choice. And with a good silver pen, some acrylic "goo" and maybe replacing the tongue, I will definitely try.
But overall from the pics I've seen I really like it. I know in hand it will be even more impressive in its true scale.
"I like this figure despite it's inaccuracies" pretty much sums it up for me.
The big thing for me was and is the mouth. Sorry to bring it up again but that's the one single thing I would fix if I had a choice. And with a good silver pen, some acrylic "goo" and maybe replacing the tongue, I will definitely try.
But overall from the pics I've seen I really like it. I know in hand it will be even more impressive in its true scale.
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