Flexibility in Self-Identity? Help settle a debate.

[ShadowX81]

So I’ve just finished having a roughly two hour debate with a friend of mine, neither of us has reached a consensus on this topic. I thought I’d see what opinions you all have.

So the scenario is that there is this girl at work that I am very interested in. While we have a lot in common and I do think we would be good together, the both of us have gotten the idea that she does not reciprocate at this time. Therefore, for the past couple months I have taken a step back from pursuing her and instead have tried to work on self-improvement. I’ve been working out more, becoming more well read, making an effort to branch out socially, and actively pursuing some new hobbies which I’ve been procrastinating for a while. Therefore in a couple months I can come back as an improved version of myself and hopefully have a better shot at her. This launched us into a heated debate about the level of flexibility in self-identity.

His point was that you can’t live your life for other people. That social relationships are not a list of requirements that you check off tally marks next to. They are organic things with millions of unpredictable variables which you can’t quantify. It’s not something which you can plan or strategize. Those relationships that will work happen naturally on their own, and if it doesn’t, odds are it wasn’t meant to be. You need to live your life the way that you want to, and any attempt to change for the sake of fulfilling other people’s desires is ultimately not being true to yourself.

My point was that ultimately our identities are constantly changing anyways, and that how much we steer the course of that growth determines how well we are in a position to achieve our goals. In the end, your entire worth in life is determined by how well you can fulfill the various roles people need you to play (as a friend, romantic partner, employee, etc.). Human relationships may have many variables, but ultimately there are certain people who are better fits for you than others, and by self-improvement you can shape yourself into someone who is potentially a better fit for someone than you would have been previously.
There are better hypothetical versions of ourselves that are in a greater position to achieve our goals than we are currently, and there is nothing inherently wrong or self-contradictory in strengthening the areas of our life that would allow us to be this person. When I went thorough ROTC in college so I could get my job as a military officer was I not being true to myself? It did dramatically change me. Then why am I not being true to myself by improving my life to the point where I could have a better chance of dating this girl? I’m not doing anything contradictory to who I am or changing my identity. I honestly would not be putting in this much work if I didn’t already think that we would be a good match. And if things still don’t work out with her, im still left a better person in the end for the effort I’ve put in.


While I still stick to my position, il admit that he does raise some good points. What do you guys think?

 

[darthviper107]

I think the desire to change yourself to be with someone is part of your own identity, if you don't actually want to do that then it isn't. For instance, improving yourself to make you more desirable to someone that you like is fine, but forcing yourself to change against what you really want to do just to make other people happy isn't.

 

[King Darkness]

Self improvement should be for you. For your benefit. If you get more positive results from others as a side effect of your own goals to be better, than that's great.

Making "improvements" to yourself for the sole fact that you want others to perceive you differently is an inherently flawed approach to self improvement.

Now if you are a disgusting pud then you should definitely improve yourself so others don't have to endure your failure at life.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

In reality you only want her boobies, move on and find a similar pair, your putting the p on a pedestal

 

[Lejuan]

And if things still don’t work out with her, im still left a better person in the end for the effort I’ve put in.

If you think the changes are making you a better person it really doesn't matter whether this girl is your motivation. Self-improvement brings self-respect, which brings self confidence, which is an attractive quality.

 

[devilof76]

If the motivation and goal of your actions is another person, any self-improvement that you might have acquired becomes at risk in the event that your objective decides that someone else is a better idea while you are in the process of making yourself more desirable. By expanding upon who you are, you aren't changing yourself per se, but the fact that another person is the object of your improvements is high risk behavior. You set yourself up for a fall in which you'll not only be losing the girl, but also everything you've worked for. If it's all tied to her, her absence will taint the things you did to bait her.

That said, it's not like altering your fundamental view of life and the world for her. If you were religious and chose to dispense with your convictions to be more attractive, or if you had political views that you knew she'd disapprove of, and summarily abandoned them, then you would be doing infinitely more damage to yourself than in the prior scenario. You'd also be at risk for being trapped in that non-self you constructed because there's always the chance you could be successful. If you ever wanted to go back to who you were, she'd have to be sacrificed. Also, she'd be under the impression that you were who you were because that's who you were, and not just because you wanted to get in her pants. Her attraction to you would be based on a lie. Not pretty, but in essence, the same scenario as the first. The only difference is that the second scenario does more overt damage to you both.

 

[crows]

what made you think you needed to better yourself in order to talk to her again.

What makes you think she will say yes now? What if she doesn't? What if after you better yourself she still doesn't want anything?

Those are real questions that came to mind when reading your post.

Honestly, someone should like you for you. If she didn't like you before I doubt the changes you made will make her change her mind. (maybe it will, who knows)

If she didn't like you before but she likes you now, then you might end up with a superficial relationship, based on petty things.

your friend is right, and This reminds me of the movie 500 days of summer.

 

[Batty]

You talked about this for two hours? No wonder you're single.

 

[King Darkness]

You talked about this for two hours? No wonder you're single.

Thread winning post!

Lock it up.

 

[devilof76]

I like the question outside of the dating context. How much do people abuse themselves to get a job, or feel like they're a good citizen, etc? Self-immolation for reward is a fascinating disorder.

 

[Master Wayne]

You talked about this for two hours? No wonder you're single.

Oh my God that was priceless!


In all seriousness, there have been some excellent views posted in here that I couldn't possibly state better myself. I see physical, mental, and social self improvement as a very positive goal, provided it is being done for yourself and not to please others. Good luck!

 

[Shropt]

Deleted some of the off topic posts. Stay on target guys.

 

[Blackthornone]

People's inner fundamental natures don't change a whole lot from birth to death. They might change how they meet certain goals, but their basic goals remain the same. If they are a thrill seeker, they will always be a thrill seeker, but they might change from skydiving to mountain climbing. They may decide to seek thrills by doing other dangerous things like being involved with the underworld. Someone might be artistic, and go from drawing to sculpting or choose hair styling or make up. People can change how they fulfill their needs, but they cannot really change the needs they seek to fulfill without living another life, with someone else's ideas of the right way to live. Living someone elses life will only make you unhappy regardless of why.

If you aren't physically fit, then get fit. Nothing wrong with that, and just makes you a better version of you. Exercise in a way that appeals most to your personality so it is the most enjoyable.

As far as becoming more well read, there are lots of things to read about, and so the things that will be the most effective at gaining her favor will be the things she is the most interested in.
So, are you interested in the things she is interested in? If you are, and just seek to impress her with how much you know about the things you are interested in, that will seem impressive to her and then also come across as genuine.

If it isn't what you are interested in, it won't be as genuine, and she will pick up on that. If she senses that you are only doing special things just to be more like her when you are really not, what do you think she, or most women would think of that?


Women want good relationships as well, so if she senses that you are acting and all this isn't what you really are about, it will all be for naught.

 

[devilof76]

Values aren't determined at birth.

 

[Blackthornone]

Values aren't determined at birth.

The basic personality is there at birth. It just needs time to fully reveal itself.

 

[fosing]

self improvement should not be justified through such objective. you do it for yourself. not for something. definitely not for someone, but yourself.

compromising one's self(identity/beliefs) to gain recognition, acceptance or for fitting in. that's sad.

"dont compromise yourself. you are all you've got"- J. Japolin

 

[devilof76]

The basic personality is there at birth. It just needs time to fully reveal itself.

That's not true.

A volitional consciousness begins with a blank slate, and since it has the ability to select its own values, the only determinant of personality is the sum of one's choices.

 

[316what]

Are you in training to be a lap dog? If you are making all of these changes for a girl you don't have, then what changes are you prepared to make to keep the girl IF you get her.

If she is interested in you it should be for who you are....not who you can become for her. If the changes you are making make you feel better about yourself then that's great and keep it up. It's called SELF-IMPROVEMENT not POTENTIAL GIRLFRIEND IMPROVEMENT. After all of the changes there will be some level of resentment towards her if she still is not interested the same way you are.

 

[Shai]

Fact: You'll never have this girl.

 

[Blackthornone]

That's not true.

A volitional consciousness begins with a blank slate, and since it has the ability to select its own values, the only determinant of personality is the sum of one's choices.

If every person's consciousness truly was a blank slate from birth, then their entire life and all of their choices would be predetermined by their bodies and the environment that their bodies were in, and those would be determined by the bodies and the environments that those bodies were in, in a chain that goes to the beginning of everything.

Any "free will" in such a situation would amount to nothing more than ignorance of the fact that one has none and only has the illusion of it by having a process of uncertainty as the brain processes every situation that would lead, regardless of the time or strain experienced of that process, to one, and only one possible outcome.
Every situation would yield only one inexorable conclusion, regardless of the illusion of free will. The "free will" in that situation would be nothing more than a lack of awareness of the intricacies of one's own mental processes and of the factors in one's environment which would cause one to "make" certain choices.

It would be like a robot with AI put in a certain room with certain objects in it. There could only be one possible course of action of that robot at any given moment. The robot would not be aware of this, however. It might believe it has free will and is making it's own choices, whereas it is not.
If you put an identical robot with identical AI programming in an identical room, it would make exactly the same choices at exactly the same times in exactly the same ways as the first robot. If you recorded both robots, it would look like you were watch only one robot instead of two in two environments.

If, on the other hand, the robots were identical in identical environments and the robots were remote controlled by totally independent operators with intelligence that existed completely independently of those robots, then you would definitely have outcomes for each robot as varied as the operators themselves.