Flexibility in Self-Identity? Help settle a debate.

[ShadowX81]

Here's the difference:

"I wanna improve myself (physically, mentally, etc.) because it'll be good for me!"

vs.

"I wanna improve myself (physically, mentally, etc.) because I think this person/other people will like me more and it'll be good for me too!"

Kinda the same thing right? But with one small difference: The motivation behind it, which can drastically change how people view an action. Most people would not disagree or find fault with the first statement above. But most would with the second one. And like I said, the only difference is the motivation.

Think of it like this, if you removed that chick from the equation would you still be thinking about all that self-improvement at this point in time? Be honest.

No I wouldn't. And to be honest ive never tried to hide that.


I guess I just don't see the difference in perception between the two statements above. Finally I have the motivation to get up and do things ive been too lazy to do for months.

Like I asked earlier in the thread, why is it that improving yourself is ok, doing it to advance at work is admirable, but doing it to get a girl raises some eyebrows? Everything good in my life right now is only there because I worked my *** off to get it. Why should this be any different?

 

[The Ween]

I don't want to read all through this thread so.....

I think for the most part your friend is right. Trouble with doing things just to win her, you're much more apt to be disappointed if she still turns you down. If she doesn't care for you the way you are NOW, she probably won't care about you later. If she does, she's a shallow ***** anyway.

If you want to improve on yourself, go for it. But don't do it to win ONE girl, do it because YOU want to do it for yourself.

 

[wavestuff]

hi shadow, ive been in a very similar position you were in. and after all the work i still didnt get the girl.

no amount of opinion you give to someone who's so focused on a purpose, like i am assuming, you're with this gal will change your mind. my friends family all warned me about this predicament but in the end i had to go through the motions to understand the lesson. sadly for a lot of us the only way to learn is through heart break.

by the way the changes i made for wanting to get the gal, went back to their default status because in the end, those adjustments clashed with my identity.

 

[crows]

No I wouldn't. And to be honest ive never tried to hide that.


I guess I just don't see the difference in perception between the two statements above. Finally I have the motivation to get up and do things ive been too lazy to do for months.

Like I asked earlier in the thread, why is it that improving yourself is ok, doing it to advance at work is admirable, but doing it to get a girl raises some eyebrows? Everything good in my life right now is only there because I worked my *** off to get it. Why should this be any different?

well, answer me this, What if the girl starts dating someone right now?

would you continue improving yourself? If they girl is out of reach now. What would you do then? continue with your new hobbies?

I mean, Why can't the girl accept you now ?

You said: the both of us have gotten the idea that she does not reciprocate at this time.

Why is that? Why wouldn't the girl date you before the self improvement?

you never answered that. What made you think in the first place you needed to improve in order to be with her?
you never answered that either.

you keep talking about improving and how is this different than going after a job or something like that.

but you never said why you had to improve in the first place.

 

[mr.thrifty]

She's a lesbian.... You're wasting your time......

 

[crows]

She's a lesbian.... You're wasting your time......

exactly, she could be lol.

 

[Lejuan]

Why would you actively pursue a chick you work with anyway? Unless it's a mutually irresistible attraction, why would you try to make something happen that will likely end badly? Take up the tango and spade a dance chicky instead.

 

[devilof76]

I'm going to have the phrase 'spade a dance chicky' stuck in my head for weeks.

 

[Blackthornone]

Are you saying that for a volitional consciousness to have genuine free will, it needs to have its actions pre-determined by some innate tendency to make certain choices, which is not--in any meaningful way--in its control?

Or are you denying the existence of free will in humans completely (blank slate or not)? I can't tell if you're trying to have it both ways, or if you're a hook, line and sinker determinist.



Self-improvement is a form of changing yourself.

For a volitional consciousness to have a free will, it needs to exist independently of the forum that it acts in. A person's consciousness must exist independently of the physical body, in order to be truly objective in the physical body, or AS a physical being. That means that the person's consciousness must have existed prior to it's physical body.

If a person's consciousness was only a manifestation of the physical body, then everything they are would be the direct result of that construction, and thus, being all that is, no actual free will is possible.

With the physical body in this scenario being in an environment which was completely the result of the state of the environment before it, everything about that environment is predetermined.

It's entire development would be predetermined. This is because, if the physical is all that is, not only is all of the potential determined by it's nature, but so is the exact way in which it unfolds, much like a video game. The only way anything truly random could happen or any free will would be by the environment being acted on by an outside force.

Since the physical body was created by the environment, or evolved from it (the same thing)it is really just an extension of it, and not an entirely independent entity.

So, if the consciousness of the person is entirely contained or from the body, it must also be determined by the body, and cannot therefore be a blank slate. It can only be a very simple slate which will develop according to how it's very complex design and the design of the environment in which it is in, has programmed it to.

If the person really is a blank slate, then all of it's development is determined by it's environment.

The physical environment and everything as a direct result of it, has no ability to have free will. It cannot choose for itself, any more than a computer game can. Regardless of how complex a computer game or AI might be, it cannot have free will.

It can only act consistently with it's programming, and then adapt according to how it's programming is written in an environment that will force it to make logical decisions according to it's programming.

It can evolve, but it doesn't actually have free will.

It would be the same with people. If everything about people is the physical stuff, everything, all choices are predetermined by the physical stuff, just as the structure is determined by the physical stuff.


I believe the soul exists, which is a form of consciousness that exists independently of the body, which explain why we have free will.

God does not need to exist in the conversation in order to acknowledge the soul, either. A soul can simply be another dimension of reality that cannot be measured by physical equipment.

 

[devilof76]

No, a volitional consciousness by definition has free will. There are no conditions it needs to meet. Either it's free, or it's not volitional. If it were limited to reaction to its environment it would be an instinctual consciousness.

The locus of free will is the self-direction of consciousness. It doesn't need to have omnipotence over matter to take control of the operation of itself, because matter is not what dictates its actions. It is a form of consciousness that dictates its own action. Innate tendencies (types--biological or spiritual) override that autonomy, so either humans are born tabula rasa, or they are incapable of volition.

Matter (existence) and consciousness are axiomatic: they are universal, absolute, not reducible to one another, but one is metaphysically prior to the other.
Existence can exist without consciousness, but consciousness cannot exist without existence. To be conscious, there has to be something of which to be conscious. A consciousness conscious only of itself is a contradiction on its face.

A volitional consciousness is no different, and it will never be conscious before it has the physical means to be conscious of a physical world. That isn't a disqualifying factor. It's a necessary condition. The only disqualifying factor would be if it were not actually free; if it were determined (which it would be, whether the determining cause was spiritual or physical).

 

[Blackthornone]

How can you have volitional consciousness and truly a blank slate at the same time?

 

[Crimsonbob]

**** em be who you are and dont change yourself before you have even started a relationship.

Once in a relationship you tend to have to make compromises but that is pretty normal and especially if it becomes serious.

 

[wavestuff]

good advice crimson

great avatar

 

[ShadowX81]

well, answer me this, What if the girl starts dating someone right now?

would you continue improving yourself? If they girl is out of reach now. What would you do then? continue with your new hobbies?

Id hope so.

Honestly she is an attractive girl and im sure between the time ive met her and now, she has most likely had a date here and there.

Just like a new workout. Make it a habbit now and then it naturally becomes part of your routine.

Why is that? Why wouldn't the girl date you before the self improvement?

you never answered that. What made you think in the first place you needed to improve in order to be with her?
you never answered that either.

Honestly (and by saying this im opening up alot here) ive been focusing so much on work in the past year (the career is more of a way of life than a job) that ive kind of stopped persuing anything else. Alot of potential hobbies have been backlogged; and combining that with my inherant natural quiet dimenor, ive become quite a boring person in the past year to the point where I have a hard time staying interesting in a conversation. And sometimes in trying to force it, some of the most stupid crap imagineable comes out of my mouth.

Plus I do believe that making small improvements to your appearance and the way you carry yourself can do worlds for your self image. Look at Christian Bale's new look to see how much a difference small changes can make.

People in this thread are acting like im completly changing who I am. All im really doing is just making an effort to be more social and making some time for a couple hobbies that ive been wanting to get around to long before her. Honestly I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't already think we were a good match for eachother. Its just me being an awkward idiot that kept screwing up a promising start.

The way I see the basic philosphy behind this change is: "same product, better advertising."

 

[devilof76]

How can you have volitional consciousness and truly a blank slate at the same time?

How can a will be free to choose its own values if its values have been pre-determined? The onus isn't on free will to justify its non-contradictory nature; that belongs to whoever attempts to claim that its nature is contradictory. Either it is what it is, or it isn't.

 

[crows]

Id hope so.

Honestly she is an attractive girl and im sure between the time ive met her and now, she has most likely had a date here and there.

Just like a new workout. Make it a habbit now and then it naturally becomes part of your routine.




Honestly (and by saying this im opening up alot here) ive been focusing so much on work in the past year (the career is more of a way of life than a job) that ive kind of stopped persuing anything else. Alot of potential hobbies have been backlogged; and combining that with my inherant natural quiet dimenor, ive become quite a boring person in the past year that has a hard time staying interesting in a conversation. And sometimes in trying to force it, some of the most stupid crap imagineable comes out of my mouth.

Plus I do believe that making small improvements to your appearance and the way you carry yourself can do worlds for your self image. Look at Christian Bale's new look to see how much a difference small changes can make.

People in this thread are acting like im completly changing who I am. All im really doing is just making an effort to be more social and making some time for a couple hobbies that ive been wanting to get around to long before her. Honestly I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't already think we were a good match for eachother. Its just me being an awkward idiot that kept screwing up a promising start.

The way I see the basic philosphy behind this change is: "same product, better advertising."

I get you.
I guess change is good, just as long as you are okay with her saying no. Nothing guarantees she will go out with you.

That's the difference between doing this to impress her and doing stuff for a job.
the job is not a human being with feelings.

 

[nash]

i think you watch too many movies. if a woman isnt interested in you in the first 10 minutes of her knowing you. she never will be.

Unless she's such a shallow person that it takes you working out, reading books, and being more social for her to "Finally" accept you. In which case, why would you want someone so superficial?

 

[crows]

i think you watch too many movies. if a woman isnt interested in you in the first 10 minutes of her knowing you. she never will be.

Unless she's such a shallow person that it takes you working out, reading books, and being more social for her to "Finally" accept you. In which case, why would you want someone so superficial?

yep, that's right. That's why I kept asking him Why he couldn't be with her now, why wouldn't she accept an invitation to a date now.

 

[ShadowX81]

i think you watch too many movies. if a woman isnt interested in you in the first 10 minutes of her knowing you. she never will be.

Unless she's such a shallow person that it takes you working out, reading books, and being more social for her to "Finally" accept you. In which case, why would you want someone so superficial?

I think the whole 10 minutes thing seems more out of a movie than anything. The idea that people's attraction is instant and forever is silly. While people make a decision about attraction when they first meet someone, obviously peoples opinions grow the more that they get to know someone. Ive met people that I was initially attracted to who I couldn't stand after talking to them for a half hour, and ive also dated people who I had known for years before anything romantic entered into it.

Nontheless, il admit that the more you get to know someone the harder to change that opinion is, which is why ive been keeping my distance during this time of self improvement. I havent even hinted at asking her out before so I can't know for sure that she'd say no. I just know that the vibe im getting was initally positive, but went downhill after the initial "gettting to know you" conversation. Now its settled into a kind of of vauge yet fleeting interest so id like to improve my odds before I "show my hand".

 

[RavenEye]

Jeez... Really? Dude... If a woman doesn't like ya for who ya are, funny, yourself, interests, etc then it'll never work. Changing yourself to appease someone is low and making a calculated conclusion isn't going to work either.