Essence vs. exact likeness

[KAOSINLA]

I thought this would be a good post to shed light on the Essence debate....especially in regards to the recent Frodo controversy.

From the TF chat log w/ Mat Falls:


[01:09] <KAOSINLA> Matt, Do you try to capture the essence of the character or the exact likeness? I always here this argument when a dispute arises.

[01:12] <SSC_MatFalls> KAOSINLA - sometimes it depends on the character...
[01:12] <SSC_MatFalls> as a rule, I split the difference
[01:13] <SSC_MatFalls> I try to get as anatomically correct as I can and yet still add some personality
[01:13] <SSC_MatFalls> it's a fine line to walk
[01:14] <SSC_MatFalls> we don't want to diminish the essence of the character

Feel free to add any more information on this!!!!

 

[SolidLiquidFox]

I think essence is what the Gentle Giant maquettes are going to be about. SS LOTR 12" has a their work cut out for them as they have to balance all elements.

So far great job Sideshow!

 

[The Josh]

Well, there ya go. Like with Frodo and Aragorn both sculpted by Matt. You get a pretty solid likeness and the essence all in one. Something, I find important to a piece and why I like so many of the SS pieces and SSW pieces.

 

[darth dypshyt]

what is "essence", I mean i KNOW what it is..i.e. meaning....But, how are you supposed to capture that?? ...I thought it would be easier to capture an exact likeness...I think people say it captures the essence of a character, when they realise they didn't get the likeness right...

I could put a picture of a rock on this page and say..."While it doesn't look EXACTLY like Viggo Mortensen...It has the ESSENCE of Aragorn" ...yeah right..

Give me exact over essence....anyday.

Essence should remain in the imagination..

 

[The Josh]

what is "essence", I mean i KNOW what it is..i.e. meaning....But, how are you supposed to capture that?? ...I thought it would be easier to capture an exact likeness...I think people say it captures the essence of a character, when they realise they didn't get the likeness right...

I could put a picture of rock on this page and say..."While it doesn't look EXACTLY like Viggo Mortensen...It has the ESSENCE of Aragorn ...yeah right..

Give me exact over essence....anyday.

Essence should remain in the imagination..

Well, for me I don't say that because I think they missed on the likeness. I would say that even if they got it totally exact on the likeness. For me personally when I say they captured the essence it's because I think they captured my personal feelings of the character. If people don't like that well I don't really care.

 

[Daveyjaro]

The essence of Frodo is to present him as a Hobbit on the wealthy side, so his clothes should be fine, along with all the characteristics that go with a Hobbit. Essence for me means Frodo the Hobbit from LOTR the book, but if people envision Elijah Wood as Frodo, then exact likeness is needed. I don't think the PF Frodo looks very close at all to Elijah, but it looks good as a LOTR Frodo. Is Sideshow trying to depict Characters and creatures from Tolkien's Work or Peter Jacksons? What do you want? Myself, I prefer PJ as I associate the character with the image on the screen, but I read LOTR a long time ago and can appreciate a figure that doesn't quite resemble the actor. That's why I ordered Frodo. If I would need exact likeness, I would have passed on ordering.

 

[leebgb]

Personally, I'm with you to an extent Darth.

It would be very hard for a piece NOT to capture the essence of a character. Take Frodo example and think of all the scenes he's in during the films. As long as the statue was him looking happy, sad, scared, tortured, walking, hiding, cowering, holding the ring or holding Sting, etc., it would capture Frodo's essence. The only way it wouldn't capture his essence is if the statue's pose was doing something completly outlandish that wasn't in the films like picking his nose.

It would be different if the face sculpt wasn't based on Elijah but you can clearly tell with the eyes that they were going for an Elijah likeness. Plus they went for film accurate clothing. For that reason, I'm leaning towards the idea that they were going for the likeness more than essence.

I think a good question is if pieces with bad facial likenesses would still capture the essence of the character if the wardrobe differed from the film in color and design? I think with some people the "essence" is there as long as "film accurate clothing" is there.

I'm not bashing anyone who feels differently, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. If you dig it, buy it.

 

[The Josh]

It would be very hard for a piece NOT to capture the essence of a character. Take Frodo example and think of all the scenes he's in during the films. As long as the statue was him looking happy, sad, scared, tortured, walking, hiding, cowering, holding the ring or holding Sting, etc., it would capture Frodo's essence. The only way it wouldn't capture his essence is if the statue's pose was doing something completly outlandish that wasn't in the films like picking his nose.

Yeah of course. I think there are more than a few though like me that the essence has more to do with the personal feelings towards the character. I mean how we felt the character was in the films/books.

For example. When I got my Strider bust the other day(again after selling it the first time) I looked at it and was fine with it looking not much at all if any like Viggio. However, the thing I really love about it is when I look at it this piece captures that side of Strider almost sad because he doesn't want to become King and just wants to stay out of the limelight, but realizes that if he doesn't face his destiny then ME would fall into darkness.

Basically, I guess I see a piece and yes it captures some part of the essence/personal feelings I have for a character based on my personal interaction with the story. An exact likeness only adds to that for me personally.

It would be different if the face sculpt wasn't based on Elijah but you can clearly tell with the eyes that they were going for an Elijah likeness. Plus they went for film accurate clothing. For that reason, I'm leaning towards the idea that they were going for the likeness more than essence.

I think the likeness to EW is pretty solid but I know I'm in the minority on this and think Matt dida solid job.

I think a good question is if pieces with bad facial likenesses would still capture the essence of the character if the wardrobe differed from the film in color and design? I think with some people the "essence" is there as long as "film accurate clothing" is there.

Well, I guess that's if these where based just off what the artist thought they would look like if not based on the films. Otherwise I think the question your asking Lee to be honest doesn't fit. A lot of peoples feelings are now mixed between the two as are mine.

If you dig it, buy it.

I agree and if you don't move on.

 

[gdb]

If you've ever been to Hollywood then you have probably run into a celebrity or two and realized that actors look different in the four dimensional real world as apposed to the filtered view via the editing room. Some of this is science. Two dimensions appear different than three (Arnold seemed like a hulk on screen because of his body, but really he's only 6'2). And sometimes it is intentional. For example, Tom Cruise might be put on a box before he kisses a tall women.

Anyway, Hollywood doesn't try to capture the 100 percent exact likeness of the actors and I'm glad Sideshow doesn't either.

 

[Customikey]

I've seen a lot of Scanned figures that just look very bland. A certain level of artistic license doesn't ruin a likeness, but brings it out in greater depth. This is the way SSC has always done it, and the resultsa speak for themselves. For my money, the likenesses are superb. How much of that is "accuracy" and how much is "essence" I don't know or care, but I likes it!

 

[leebgb]

I'm not saying Matt did a bad job at all. The likeness could have been closer but I think he did great to be honest. Especially when you think that these sculptors not only have different statues to sculpt but also different lines.

I agree with you Josh. Looking at a sculpt and being taken to a scene from the films is what makes the pieces worth buying. I'm just making the point that when you have human characters going through every imaginable emotion throughout 3 films, you're going to capture one emotion the character went through in just about any sculpt you do.

My clothing question is more aimed at people who don't care as much about film portrail as much as the book. Some say the face doesn't matter because they want a piece of the character, not the actor. I just wonder if they'd still feel this way if the clothing still stayed within Tolkien's world but differed from the film wardrobe in style and color.

 

[KAOSINLA]

The essence of Frodo is to present him as a Hobbit on the wealthy side, so his clothes should be fine, along with all the characteristics that go with a Hobbit. Essence for me means Frodo the Hobbit from LOTR the book, but if people envision Elijah Wood as Frodo, then exact likeness is needed. I don't think the PF Frodo looks very close at all to Elijah, but it looks good as a LOTR Frodo. Is Sideshow trying to depict Characters and creatures from Tolkien's Work or Peter Jacksons? What do you want? Myself, I prefer PJ as I associate the character with the image on the screen, but I read LOTR a long time ago and can appreciate a figure that doesn't quite resemble the actor. That's why I ordered Frodo. If I would need exact likeness, I would have passed on ordering.

I'm kind of on the same page.

I believe the essence of the character is a combination of things. First, the descriptive terms, actions, and settings from the novels set the groundwork. Then, I believe artistic interpretation comes into play, which is a blending of the best adaptations, and/or forms construed and constructed to date. In this way, I believe an artist kind of establishes ownership of his/her sculpt. In some cases, some people, maybe many, have associated EW as the definitive Frodo with little to no room for deviation from his exact portrayal of Frodo (you can substitute many characters in this sentence). On the other hand, others have seen something from their own personal vision in the piece. So it come down to your preference.....What do you see??? What do you want??? I think that couple sentences Mat used to answer the orignail question sort out everything. Not that a sculptor owes an explanation to anyone but their boss, however without it people start to question ability.

I wish I had asked any of the sculptors if it is sort of an insult to be asked for an exact likeness with no wiggle-room (kind of like well-done steaks and chef's).

I think it would be interesting to see a sculpt of just EW the actor (man on the street), not any character, and see what that would look like.

 

[Customikey]

Strictly speaking, the PF would not be a good representation of Frodo from the books, because Frodo in the books is closer to 50 years old. Just thought I'd throw that bit in there!

 

[darth dypshyt]

Well, for me I don't say that because I think they missed on the likeness. I would say that even if they got it totally exact on the likeness. For me personally when I say they captured the essence it's because I think they captured my personal feelings of the character. If people don't like that well I don't really care.

That's what I am saying...

Essense is PERSONAL....what makes a character in your own opinion....In your head/imagination....

Whereas, just about everyone should be able to agree on an exact likeness...although, sometimes on this board...that isn't the case either.

 

[Darklord Dave]

It's impossible to define what the "essence" of a character is in a 3-D representation, just as the definition of "iconic" can be different for different people.

To me, it's unrelated to Frodo, which I think captures a moment from the film very well, even if the likeness isn't 100%.

I beleive true "essence" as is cited by Mat, is captured in something like the new Angel where not only is the likeness dead on, but the expression is just as we'd like to remember the character. Other recent examples of this are the 12" Legolas and the PF Duke; where the likeness and the attitude meld perfectly.

 

[HighElven]

In my opinion, saying they go for abit of both is a cop out. If you get the likeness right the essence is going to show through.

 

[Customikey]

In my opinion, saying they go for abit of both is a cop out. If you get the likeness right the essence is going to show through.

I disagree. i've seen a lot of computer scanned likenesses that have no personality whatsoever. It's like saying that every photo anyone has ever taken of you truly captures your essence. Doubtful.

 

[HighElven]

I see where your coming from.
If you look at the best statues and busts Sideshow Weta made, the best always look relatively spot on, and in my opinion capture the essence.
I just dont see there being a need to 'capture the essence'. If you get the sculpt right with a good expression or something along those lines, its going to be a good figure/statue.

 

[Seretur]

What Customikey said -- the Frodo PF isn't the book-Frodo at all, so there really is no reason for it not to look like Elijah Wood. In fact, it looks even younger than him, which makes very little sense. And the Moria location isn't really one of Frodo's essential locations in the story -- his quest is the Quest of the Ring, something that tests him to the limits of his whole character, and leaves him scarred for life, where only the Undying West can heal him.

So no, I didn't see any of that "essence" in the PF, none whatsoever.

And the quest for likeness isn't the same thing as a bust based on a 3D scan -- because those are captured in a neutral expression, and still have to be fiddled with to create a lifelike face, not to mention the rest of the pose. Artists are needed in every case. It's up to them to make it lifelike, and to make it look like a portrait of someone, in certain cases. Computers can't really take over the collectible industry, even in GG's case.

 

[The Josh]

What Customikey said -- the Frodo PF isn't the book-Frodo at all, so there really is no reason for it not to look like Elijah Wood. In fact, it looks even younger than him, which makes very little sense. And the Moria location isn't really one of Frodo's essential locations in the story -- his quest is the Quest of the Ring, something that tests him to the limits of his whole character, and leaves him scarred for life, where only the Undying West can heal him.

So no, I didn't see any of that "essence" in the PF, none whatsoever.

Oh I don't know I see that in this piece. Not to the degree you would see it if this was from the Crack of Mt. Doom mind you but I think in this piece I see the start of what the Ring will do to him.