Dune Part Two (October 20th, 2023)

[Remembermyname]

Dune Part 3 is the future....Be ready my friends.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I thought the reason Leto never took a wife was because no matter who he chose, the other Houses would take that as a slight. It would make him enemies. As long as he was unmarried, they had hope.

I'll put my response in Spoiler Tags, as I might start to veer off too far from the films...

Spoiler:

Emperor Shaddam only had daughters. His wife was also a Bene Gesserit and intentionally only gave him daughters. Consider the political dynamic from his POV. If Duke Leto marries Irulan ( kind of rough right... I mean there's a massive age gap and Irulan is still just a kid in that kind of situation...) before he has Paul, then he can bed Irulan, get her pregnant, have a child together, then the "alliance" between House Corrino and House Atriedes is assured.

However once Paul is born, Duke Leto has to understand, IMHO, that it's a death sentence, one way or another. If Duke Leto does get married ( why would he do it other than into House Corrino? It's the only match that makes sense, i.e. if he's saving himself for the best political decision, that's the apex opportunity for him) and has a child to blend with the Corrino family, then Paul and Jessica are just loose ends. What are the choices then? Death. That's it. Duke Leto could try to hide them or send them to some far flung reaches of the universe, but they would become a standard bearer for all of Emperor Shaddam's enemies to rally around. That means the Sardaukar would be sent non stop and relentlessly to kill Paul and Lady Jessica. Or what if Duke Leto proposes that Paul marries Irulan? Then it's Duke Leto's line that ascends to the throne, not Shaddam and not of his own bloodline. His daughters then are reduced to brood mares and symbolic figures, instead of someone with real power.

Consider the optics of the situation. The Bene Gesserit allowed Duke Leto to have a son. But not the Emperor. How does that look? It makes Shaddam look weak. Hence his desire to kill Leto is not illogical.

IIRC, in the books, it was Duke Leto talking to Paul about his "reasons" for not getting married. IMHO, it was kind of deflection, from my interpretation of it, that he did not have the heart to tell his son that Paul's existence period is a death sentence for House Atriedes. Either Paul and Lady Jessica have to die, or there would a conspiracy of some kind to wipe them all out.

The common argument is Emperor Shaddam was the petty one and Duke Leto was the honorable one. But if you change the POV, Shaddam was basically cornered. Leto left him with no way to save public face. There are some passages, IIRC, where Shaddam and Irulan discuss/imply the knotty unwelcome problem of having to get rid of Leto. Because even if House Atreides is wiped out, the problem stays the same. The Emperor only has daughters and he has to start over again, this time with a lesser slate of suitors once House Atreides are gone.

Could Leto have saved House Atreides? Yes, but at what cost. He would have had to choose to kill Lady Jessica and Paul in front of the Emperor and demand Irulan's hand in marriage. It would have been the "pound of flesh" needed to allow Shaddam to perceive as holding the dominant position.

On an aside, now it's much more evident how much George RR Martin "lifted" from Dune for Game Of Thrones and House Of The Dragon. Because the same problem always emerges in any feudal system. There are simply "loose ends" that don't fit the geopolitical narrative required for alliances and survival.

 

[Khev]

lol

 

[Mandible]

If that's the case, I can't see how Villeneuve can possibility be true to the source material and still make the new direction for Chani work?

Lovers of the books might be really annoyed at the next one

 

[Mondragon]

lol

View attachment 693908

So true further she literally guts whoever attempts to challenge Paul. She's essentially the one quieting most dissent among the Fremen, just by knowing Chani was there having his back.

 

[Mondragon]

If that's the case, I can't see how Villeneuve can possibility be true to the source material and still make the new direction for Chani work?

Lovers of the books might be really annoyed at the next one

Eh, she just has to come around.

Spoiler:

....then after giving birth to Luke and Leia, sorry Leto and Ghanima, she just has to die.

 

[Mondragon]

I haven't read the books and never been able to get through the Lynch movie. So perhaps this just isn't my kind of scifi.

I'm a massive fan of Denis's Arrival and BR2049 and love his visual style, but for some reason this one just isn't working as well for me.

Maybe you (and others) might give it a third swing, before calling it out.

I'm talking about the 2000 scifi Dune TV series:
If you can get past the terrible vfx, and just accept it as more of a stage play, with literal curtain backdrops, bad lighting filters, and 90s level CG as part of the look of that universe.
Ignore that for some reason, production surrendered more money, power and leeway to a crazy, out-of-control costume and hat designer.
The fact that some actors change half way through.
Definitely put on subtitles, to work past some of the heavy mumbles, unusual accents and some flat delivery.
Recognize Paul (see Luke) is meant to be young naive and somewhat brooding at first, yet that is what makes his transform more significant.
Then it's actually not a bad series, and gets even better as they get into Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, Which you will have to wait years for on film, yet go a long way to make it a cohesive arc.

It does a much better job reconciling the dense political, theological and metaphysical themes, connections and importance of Spice, the Guild Navigators (left out of the film), their ability to fold space-time, the intricate machinations of who get to control it, and Paul's prescience (and struggle with it), all essential to the drama.
As much as it's superficially panned for it's look, or sadly ignored, more people should give the mini-series a shot.

Both the TV series and Films showcase different aspects and types of experiences, it doesn't have to be one or the other. The overblown yet visceral films (which I enjoyed, and some will loath I dared to mention in the same breath) also made me appreciate all the things the Dune mini series actually got right.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Jmek]

Yeah I just watched the 2009 mini-series too and it’s a pretty good adaptation, although the costumes can be a little flamboyant shall we say.
Ian McNeice as Baron Harkonnen is superb, and this is the one time that all the CGI looks like a video game moaners are absolutely correct!
It’s closest to the books though and well worth a watch, I’ve just bought Children Of Dune on Blu-Ray on the strength of the first series.
So the series is the most faithful, Villenuive’s the cliff-notes / most commercial and Lynch’s is the gonzo surrealist psychedelic fever dream.

 

[jye4ever]

While I respect the miniseries being more faithful I wouldn’t trade ONE SECOND of the visceral experience from an Imax or Dolby screening of Dune 2 for the faithful miniseries adaptation that looks like a Dr Who episode with goofy costumes and goofy fights, just not happening.

My life long love of films all emanate from theatrical experiences on opening night and not from lame looking faithful adaptations of novels on TV.

Even high quality miniseries like GOT and House of the Dragon can’t replace my very memorable life long cinematic experiences since childhood.

No faithful tv miniseries no matter how spectacular will ever replace the cinematic experiences from this list:

ANH
Close Encounters
Smokey and the Bandit
James Bond starting with the Spy Who Loved Me 1977.
Superman 1
Every Which Way But Loose
ESB
ROTJ
Raiders
Temple of Doom
Superman 2
Road Warrior
Aliens
Die Hard 1-3
Robocop 1
CTB
Predator 1
T1
Top Gun 1
Rocky 2-6
Star Trek 1-4
First Blood
Rambo 2-3
Commando
Airplane 1
History of the World Part 1
Fast Times at Ridgemont High
Police Academy 1
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off
BTTF 1
Friday the 13th 1
The Thing
Day of the Dead Romero
American Werewolf in London
Caddyshack
PeeWee Big Adventure
Ghostbusters 1
Gremlins 1
Karate Kid 1
Blade Runner
Batman 89
Total Recall
Home Alone 1
Hunt for Red October
T2
Jurassic Park
True Lies
Speed 1
Heat
Blade
Braveheart
The PT
The Matrix 1-3
LOTR 1-3
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
300
Saving Private Ryan
MCU
The Batman
Godzilla Minus One
Dune 2

Yeah no.

 

[jye4ever]

Vanilla Ice as Paul lol

Moon Night Freman lol

 

[Jmek]

Gosh Jye, nobody is saying you should, and your description of the Dune mini-series is pretty apt.
It is kind of like classic Doctor Who, very theatrical with low budget not so special effects.
And that’s an impressive list there, I’d love to see The Thing at the cinema, and I missed Godzilla minus 1

 

[jye4ever]

Gosh Jye, nobody is saying you should, and your description of the Dune mini-series is pretty apt.
It is kind of like classic Doctor Who, very theatrical with low budget not so special effects.
And that’s an impressive list there, I’d love to see The Thing at the cinema, and I missed Godzilla minus 1

I vividly remember walking out ot The Thing being blown away and then waking up to the harsh fact that the movie was critically hated and then a financial bomb because it had the unfortunate luck of being released just 1 week after ET!

Now, it’s a respected masterpiece lol

 

[Ramatuelle]

Ok but this is funny. And true.

I literally laughed out loud into a dark and quiet house when I saw Jabba the Hutt is the Dollar Store Leto II. That is priceless.

 

[abake]

I loved Dune Part 2, even though it takes some amazing liberties with the source material. I think DV took a page from Jackson's adaptation of LOTR and made his own Dune.
This is Denis Villeneuve's Dune.

As for the TV series, I tried watching it, but the production was simply too bad for me to sit through.

 

[Wor-Gar]

"...your series is a rip-off and for babies"

 

[Mandible]

I've watched this thing about 8 or 9 times now and I have to say, the more I watch it, the more I can't forgive some painfully obvious issues. The bits that I like, I really like, but the issues are grating and pull me out of the film every time.

There are two monumentally bad and abrupt segues (which I've never seen in one of Denis films before), and the Chani character just becomes an unmitigated mess, and thus, annoying. There's absolutely no consistency to her behavior whatsoever. It changes from scene to scene and even in the middle of scenes. It's like the wind changes directions and she's off on a different tangent. Baffling.

I'm guessing because they changed her so dramatically from the books, they didn't really know how to best handle her. She can be conflicted about what's going on, but the execution here is really messy.

 

[Khev]

I've watched this thing about 8 or 9 times now

Oh wow that's approaching Rise of Skywalker viewings for you isn't it, lol.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Now that people have gotten some distance on this, how is it playing in their head? Is it still "great"... or has the luster worn off ...?

 

[jye4ever]

Now that people have gotten some distance on this, how is it playing in their head? Is it still "great"... or has the luster worn off ...?

Still amazed how much I loved it especially when combined with Part 1.

Superb theatrical experience.

Then I met Shimo.