Dune Part Two (October 20th, 2023)

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Once he drinks the blue juice, he does.
Once he unlocks his prescience he runs out of choices, which ultimately leads to his own destruction when he refuses to go further down the path. Which is not to say he didn't trigger the massive war that kills billions. He did indeed, and lost control of it shortly thereafter. So he's no hero by any cut and dry definition. Just an important cog in a violent and brutal machine; Herbert's meditation on human societal patterns and despotism.
 
Well, Dune basically deconstructs the messiah myth. It’s not a pretty picture at all. Which could well be the main reason that Tolkien hated (“intensely disliked”) Dune.
 
Well, Dune basically deconstructs the messiah myth. It’s not a pretty picture at all.

I disagree. My observation and experience ( of course this is anecdotal to be sure) is that those who spent their formative years during The Great Depression all had some kind of lingering trauma from it. The idea of scarcity and an "underclass" in the Fremen IMHO wouldn't be surprising considering the actual corruption stateside in how rationing worked all the way through WW2. The "desert" of Arrakis was a kind of ocean, and Herbert was in the Navy during WW2 for a brief period.

Sandworms = German U-Boats
Desert = Ocean
Spice Harvesters = Convoys waiting to be killed
Surprise attack on House Atreides = Pearl Harbor
Flawed beloved leader murdered in conspiracy as Duke Leto = JFK

The Great Depression and WW2 were inflicted on the masses at large. A few people made huge decisions that mean countless millions would be slaughtered, suffer and starve. You couldn't escape it. I can see that might be a dull endless drumbeat for Herbert as a practical narrative. And, of course, the timeline that Herbert wrote it all, was steeped in casual drug use that was socially acceptable at the time. I.E. the "spice melange" as a type of enlightenment.


PAUL "Father, I’m here to ask you to join Duncan Idaho’s scout mission on Arrakis. I’d be an asset to him. "
LETO "Out of the question. You’ll travel to Arrakis in a few weeks, like the rest of us.....You’re the future of House Atreides, Paul."
PAUL "....Grandfather fought bulls for sport!"
LETO (looking at tombstone) "Yes. And look where that got him."
PAUL "What if I’m not?"
LETO "Not what?"
PAUL "The future of House Atreides."
LETO "I told my father I didn’t want this either. I wanted to be a pilot."
PAUL "You never told me that."
LETO "My father said, 'A good man doesn’t seek to lead. He’s called to it, and he answers.' If your answer is no, you’ll still be the only thing I’ve ever needed you to be -- my son. I found my own way to it. You might find yours. ( Points to the tombstones) In their memory, give it a try."

My take is I'd assess that as the most critical character dynamic scene in the first Villeneuve film. Duke Leto knows being given charge of Arrakis is a trap. However he is compelled by duty. But is he? For his "duty" to his people, the sacrifice he didn't make was to marry into House Corrino. That would have solidified their union and alliance permanently. Instead he took a concubine, where Paul is the product of Lady Jessica also refusing her duty as a Bene Gesserit ( choosing to have a son and not a daughter) Leto implies there is a choice, but there isn't one. He's manipulating his own son. It's the part of Paul that becomes more troubling as the series goes on, that he becomes all the things that his father would abhor. For "duty". But the irony is Paul himself is the product of two very powerful people refusing their duty to their own people.

Imagine Herbert in the middle of an ocean. Waiting for U-Boats to come kill him and other young men like him, who didn't have a choice at all. Where there's an air of gross manipulation at work. Forced into duty. Pieces on a chessboard that are expendable, like cannon fodder, for the whims of a larger game by a few select players. What is the price of free will? In the Dune universe, what little you have only comes after you've robbed it from others in exchange. IMHO, Paul is a manifestation of young men who were thrust into a role that robbed them of everything.

Obviously all of Herbert's public interviews and engagement could never talk about any of this. Even if he wanted to do it. Now I could be wrong on my premise. But deep down, I don't think I am. There's a chilling quote by Franklin Roosevelt, "War is young men dying and old men talking"
 
I thought the reason Leto never took a wife was because no matter who he chose, the other Houses would take that as a slight. It would make him enemies. As long as he was unmarried, they had hope.

..... So last night, out of nowhere my niece texts me a rant about WHY CANT WE GET STAR WARS AS GOOD AS DUNE!??!!! I was proud, plainly the apple does not fall far from the familial tree.
 
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I'm grateful for both films, they're good in spite of missing the mark. Thinking about it longer and seeing others' reactions here, for me the misses come down to miscasting, a couple of perhaps studio and general audience-driven decisions, and runtime limitations.

The most telling commentary I've read are the comparisons between Jackson's LOTR and these films. You care about what happens to the characters in LOTR in ways you don't in Dune 1 & 2. I can't put my finger on it yet, but it could be that the vulnerability of the hobbits is more relatable along with the stark contrast between the Shire and the world outside its borders as darkness encroaches.

Maybe it's Jackson's direction, too.

While Tolkien's books could be plenty stodgy, there was a lot more heart written into them; Herbert's work has an analytical coolness circling overhead, and pairing that with Villeneuve who can be both stark and remote ... well ... you get something more ... dissociative.

We have spectacle, we have tension, but the violence is at times numbing. The Harkonnens keep murdering people in psychotic fashion but it comes off flat rather than shocking. Most of the fight and battle choreography is paint-by-numbers (with notable exceptions, to be fair!) ... I just don't believe Chalamet, Momoa or Zendaya. Which is a terrible thing to say about an actor's performance but it is what it is. All of them can be very entertaining and proficient, they're just in the wrong place here, IMO.

Different casting with a long form, high budget HBO television approach, is what would have elevated this for me.
 
I thought the reason Leto never took a wife was because no matter who he chose, the other Houses would take that as a slight. It would make him enemies. As long as he was unmarried, they had hope.

..... So last night, out of nowhere my niece texts me a rant about WHY CANT WE GET STAR WARS AS GOOD AS DUNE!??!!! I was proud, plainly the apple does not fall far from the familial tree.
Actually we did…

Andor!

Honestly while I certainly now love Dune 1 and 2 when combined as 1 movie I might actually love Luthen’s (Skarsgard) monologue on that sky bridge even more!

That monologue was seriously epic.

Fitting that he was in Dune.
 
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Thinking about it longer and seeing others' reactions here, for me the misses come down to miscasting,
I just don't believe Chalamet, Momoa or Zendaya. Which is a terrible thing to say about an actor's performance but it is what it is. All of them can be very entertaining and proficient, they're just in the wrong place here, IMO.


Different casting with a long form, high budget HBO television approach, is what would have elevated this for me.

Honestly, I think this is your problem - you've said it yourself many times; you can't get past the casting.

I didn't read Dune or LOTR's books so I came into both franchises with a clean slate, but I vividly remember when they said Elijah Wood was going to be Frodo all the book lovers flipped their lids... and now looks what's happened. Not saying it will be the same with this for you though, just pointing it out.

I agree with what you said about empathizing/sympathizing with the hobbits, but by the third film I wanted to kill Frodo and Sam myself - I loathe ROTK. Bloated, idiotic, contradictory, slog. Still love the first two, just can't sit through 3. I've watched all the extended versions too, but much prefer the theatricals.

Personally, I liked Chalamet, and not bothered by Momoa or Zendaya, before seeing the first film, but I thought they did they jobs. I still think it's the writing in two that more lets Zendaya down.

But you might just have to accept this (trilogy) isn't ever going to be for you because of the casting... you'll always see it that way :(
 
Honestly, I think this is your problem - you've said it yourself many times; you can't get past the casting.
I'm doomed. LOL
I didn't read Dune or LOTR's books so I came into both franchises with a clean slate, but I vividly remember when they said Elijah Wood was going to be Frodo all the book lovers flipped their lids... and now looks what's happened. Not saying it will be the same with this for you though, just pointing it out.
True, but I had no issue with him. Didn't even know who he was and it worked for me.
I agree with what you said about empathizing/sympathizing with the hobbits, but by the third film I wanted to kill Frodo and Sam myself - I loathe ROTK. Bloated, idiotic, contradictory,
:LOL: ... to be fair, even in the books by this time it was a long slog punctuated by Sam's crying jags.
Still love the first two, just can't sit through 3. I've watched all the extended versions too, but much prefer the theatricals.
I prefer the theatricals; 3 has its moments but I think my favourite may actually be Fellowship as it displays a great deal of restraint and builds beautifully.
Personally, I liked Chalamet, and not bothered by Momoa or Zendaya, before seeing the first film, but I thought they did they jobs. I still think it's the writing in two that more lets Zendaya down.
They weren't terrible, just didn't work for me.
But you might just have to accept this (trilogy) isn't ever going to be for you because of the casting... you'll always see it that way :(
Maybe. I haven't re-watched either yet. It's not a total loss ... I think I give it a B or B+.
 
Im looking forward to owning both disks and making it Dune Night. I will swap disks while husband's out of the room and he will think its a six hour movie. The rage will be epic.

That seems like a super Harkonnen thing to do.
 
Anyone who has not read any LotR books, congratulate yourself on missing many hours of boredom. I read two of them as a teen and I wanted the balrog to immolate me just to end the whole miserable experience.

Of all the authors I have ever read, I think I hate Tolkein the most. I know this is heresy but it is what it is.
 
Anyone who has not read any LotR books, congratulate yourself on missing many hours of boredom. I read two of them as a teen and I wanted the balrog to immolate me just to end the whole miserable experience.

Of all the authors I have ever read, I think I hate Tolkein the most. I know this is heresy but it is what it is.
Never read a book in my life. Either just watch the movie/show or wait for one to be made :lol And if I wanna know more lore etc. thats what wiki’s are for.
 
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Never read a book in my life. Either just watch the movie/show or wait for one to be made :lol And if I wanna know more lore etc. thats what wiki’s are for.

Usually reading the book too only adds to the experience. But in the case of Tolkien I agree: dont read the books.

I hate Tolkein so much I have never even seen the movies. FB routinely suggests that I follow pages such as "Middle Earth ****-posting." Yes this is an actual page, and evidently a pretty popular one.

"I dont want to see this!" *click*

FB: "why noooooooot?!"

"Irrelevant."
 
Just spoke to a friend who finally watched the first one last night in preparation for number 2 tomorrow and he didn't like it, primarily because of the music. He found it to be too big and in your face.

I said he shouldn't bother with 2 then as, like number one (and any film franchise with signature music), it's basically more of the same but with new tracks.

He couldn't understand why it irritated him so much as he loved just about everything else about the film, so I quoted the old Lucas line "music and sound is 50% of the experience." I would go even further and say that music is at least 50% of the emotional payoff as well.

Anyone ever seen that YouTube video "Star Wars without John Williams" - the whole end of ANH dies is DOA without the Williams score.
 
Just spoke to a friend who finally watched the first one last night in preparation for number 2 tomorrow and he didn't like it, primarily because of the music. He found it to be too big and in your face.

I said he shouldn't bother with 2 then as, like number one (and any film franchise with signature music), it's basically more of the same but with new tracks.

He couldn't understand why it irritated him so much as he loved just about everything else about the film, so I quoted the old Lucas line "music and sound is 50% of the experience." I would go even further and say that music is at least 50% of the emotional payoff as well.

Anyone ever seen that YouTube video "Star Wars without John Williams" - the whole end of ANH dies is DOA without the Williams score.
Actually that's an interesting point. There have been a lot of synth-driven, BIG and dissonant ... sort of 'symphonic noise' in soundtracks of late, these films being no exception. I agree that John Williams kind of *is* Star Wars and I may have enjoyed a more classical take on the Dune musical score. :unsure:
 
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