DC Comics Flashpoint *SPOILERS*

[cjf28]

ITs good enough to stand alone. The only thing you need to know from outside the storyline:

Flash approaches Thomas Wayne Batman, and asks for help setting the world right. In Flashes world Bruce lives, and his parents die.

 

[amusedjester]

Cjf28 is right. Once you know that it becomes a pivotal part of the story and that part is told outside of the batman flashpoint. I would highly recommend the batman flashpoint. Really good stuff there.

 

[Agent0028]

If they publish it as a seperate TPB I probably will get it. The premise sounds really interesting.

 

[cjf28]

OK, just finished reading all 3 issues of Legion of Doom. That also rocked.

Really like what they did with Plasticman. If that could carry over to a regular series issue, he would be a thousand times better.

 

[The Mike]

Just read Flashpoint #5 and Justice League #1. I have to say FP ended a lot more heartfelt than I expected. I loved the scene between Bruce and Barry, it is interesting they are removing a lot of the hard edge that was the symbol of the Modern Batman.

I am really excited to see what comes of the New 52 but so far I'm pretty interested. Especially since we started out with Hal

 

[NosferatuBill36]

JL#1 was terrible. Terrible writing, terrible pacing, terrible dialogue.

The art was decent, but God Lee's work on X-Men will never be replicated.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

I liked JL 1 a lot. Haven't bought a first run comic book in decades -- usually stick to graphic novels.

SnakeDoc

 

[jrice73]

Just read Flashpoint #5 and Justice League #1. I have to say FP ended a lot more heartfelt than I expected. I loved the scene between Bruce and Barry, it is interesting they are removing a lot of the hard edge that was the symbol of the Modern Batman.

I am really excited to see what comes of the New 52 but so far I'm pretty interested. Especially since we started out with Hal

I totally agree. That scene between Bruce and Barry was in my humble opinion the best scene in Flashpoint. There was real, honest to goodness emotion in that scene, a scene which when you think about it has ramifications and a historical poignancy that goes back decades. It was truly fantastic. And yet it was fleeting and too little to late. Why didn't the rest of the series and all the crossovers have that kind of relevancy, that kind of power? And as much as I loved that scene, I still want my Batman a hard nosed, hard edged bastard willing to do whatever it takes to bring justice. I don't want my Batman soft and unfortunately that scene goes there. Hell, Batman should strike fear in even the people he works with. That's the Batman I love. That's the Batman I've grown up with for the last 30 years.

But as for, JL #1, total letdown with the reveal of the villain. Let's put it this way--Batman killed that sonofa_____ and he should stay dead. C'est la vie I suppose as this is a "new" universe and all.

 

[batfan08]

I didn't read Flashpoint, but I skimmed it, and did check out the last issue. That last scene was beautiful. I like my Batman to be the hard-edged vigilante who beats criminals to a pulp, as well. However, that last scene embodies just what Bruce Wayne is. He's a hurt little boy living out a fantasy.

The fantasy being that he could save his parents. When you truly think about it, all of the training stems from his not wanting to be helpless. He's seen what happens when he's helpless, and he doesn't want it to happen again.

That scene embodies that hurt little boy, as after all of the training, after all of the intimidation, Bruce is still a human being, and it all stems from his missing his parents.

 

[Agent0028]

Excellent point on Batman. I also think that Batman has to have a softer more vulnerable side or I think he'd become a fanatic lik Ras al'ghul.

When Flashpoint is out in Paperback I may have to go to a Barnes & Noble and take a peak at the ending.

 

[amusedjester]

The last scene wasn't too bad. I did get the idea that batman would be a softer, less of a brutal and no-nonsense kind of character. He actually interacts with his peeps.

I didn't like the reveal of the final culprit behind flashpoint. It seemed rushed.

 

[Agent0028]

Is Flashpoint a bridge between the former universe and the reboot?

 

[cjf28]

basically. yes

 

[The Mike]

I didn't like the reveal of the final culprit behind flashpoint. It seemed rushed.

Only rushed if you only read Flashpoint. The thing is that DC Comics basically said that Flash: Rebirth would lead into The Flash 12 issue series which led into Flashpoint which in turn led into Justice League #1 and the New 52.

For those of us whom have been following The Flash, it was a long time coming and completely known before Flashpoint even started.

Spoiler:

Barry dealing with his mother's death was a huge backstory to his "rebirth" so to have him have screwed up the universe in saving her was logical. The Reverse Flash costume in his ring basically was a metaphor for Barry screwing with the timeline as RF had done in the past. What was weird was that Reverse Flash finally separated out of the speedstream only to be killed by Thomas Wayne. That was rushed.

 

[amusedjester]

An interesting point, Mike. Never thought about why that costume came out of his ring in that issue.

Spoiler:

You are right about the background story of the death of Flash's mother was always in the background of the new Flash series. But it still is a rush explanation that doesn't make sense.

Let's take into account that before the Flash was revived, Barry Allen's parents were both alive. The last sighting was when Barry went into the 30th century to live out his days and generate offsprings giving birth to Bart Allen. DC continuity from after Crisis to current is what we know.

Although Allen was no longer in the mainstream dc, there was no indication of whatever happened to his parents afterward.

Enter Rebirth and the Reverse Flash, he goes back in time kills Allen's mother and frames his dad. Flash's timeline is changed but DC continuity is unaffected.

Now here comes Flash and undoes what Reverse Flash did to his mother and father but for some reason the consequences results in the Flashpoint world.

That is what I meant by the rushed and not making sense part.

As for Reverse Flash who is as powerful and fast as Flash, able to change time and age, killed by a sword thrust? When I get cut be a broken piece of bottle I have enough instinctual speed to pull away and not get hurt too deeply. Reverse Flash who has almost unlimited speed should have felt the pinprick of that sword thrust moved so fast that he could literally pry Wayne's hands off that sword put him in front of that sword and switch places resulting in Reverse Flash shoving that sword in that smug old man's back. Super speed.

I believe that it is a result of stupid and lazy writing to kill Reverse Flash in this manner.

What they should have done to counter this logic? Reverse Flash feels the prick starts to move away but Flash counters by pushing him onto the sword. Super speed equals super speed but that would make Flash a killer.

In the end, what is written is done and we can all just sit by and read what they have written and try to glaze over the inconsistencies in their writing. I just wish they put more effort and realize that they do have intelligent readers who are not so easily swayed by some fancy costumes and new numbering.

 

[The Mike]

I'm not going to spoiler since this run is over.

Enter Rebirth and the Reverse Flash, he goes back in time kills Allen's mother and frames his dad. Flash's timeline is changed but DC continuity is unaffected.

Thawne sent a subliminal pulse into the Speed Force to draw back what was left of Barry's self-awareness. He did that in order to create a negative Speed Force which he uses. He needed Barry because Johns made it so that Barry created the Speed Force itself. Thawne killed his mother and was going to kill Iris until he was stopped and contained.

Barry goes to the 25th century where the Top reveals that the reason for all of his crimes is because Barry reopened a previously closed case. He has to beat The Top and convict the right man for murder, letting go the innocent man who was sent to prison, one of The Top's ancestors where if anyone learned it, he'd be kicked out of the Renegades. It's here that The Flash goes over the historical points of his time and they realize what they have as a record of history is wrong. That begins the note that the timeline was rifted becoming the Flashpoint World.

Now here comes Flash and undoes what Reverse Flash did to his mother and father but for some reason the consequences results in the Flashpoint world.

Thawne reveals that Barry attempted to undo the death we learned about in Rebirth due to selfish reasons. Remember that in Johns' new timeline retcon of Barry's history, he was in the lab going over his mother's case when he was hit by lightning. No death, no lightning. Barry continued talking about The Butterfly Effect throughout his series and Flashpoint and what happened is that one change on top of all the other changes so close together created this different world. That is where the last splash comes in where Barry interacts with his other self that the Speed Force itself tied to the timeline is so fractured and shattered that Barry must continue to run in order to resume it, which is why Barry still remembers his mother and their memories from Flashpoint because he existed outside of it even though the Flashpoint world is beginning to fade.

As for Reverse Flash who is as powerful and fast as Flash, able to change time and age, killed by a sword thrust? When I get cut be a broken piece of bottle I have enough instinctual speed to pull away and not get hurt too deeply. Reverse Flash who has almost unlimited speed should have felt the pinprick of that sword thrust moved so fast that he could literally pry Wayne's hands off that sword put him in front of that sword and switch places resulting in Reverse Flash shoving that sword in that smug old man's back. Super speed.

True, absolutely but what happened was that Thrawne's need to kick Barry when he is down is what led to his undoing. He was so focused on making Barry feel bad about being responsible for this that he never heard Batman grab the Atlantean sword also the battle was still occurring with Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman that it was loud and there were many noises around. Thrawne is Barry's counterpoint which is why he can speed through time without the treadmill but he lacks a lot of what Barry has according to Barry's explanation within Flashpoint. He simply wasn't paying attention which was his downfall. That has been a trend throughout the DCU with the speedsters especially Bart, how them not paying close attention to their surrounding to the fight would lead to them being injured because of their faith in their superspeed. Bart's legs were originally broken due to a similar mistake.

 

[cjf28]

Kudos to you both. Very insightful, and thorough.

No way I could keep up with it. but nice to know some boardies know their ____

 

[amusedjester]

Excellent points. I had to go look through the rebirth issues to see that he was indeed looking at his mother's files when got struck by lightning.
I like that Idea that Reverse Flash sent that subliminal thought to Allen and implanted his costume to play with Allen. I see your point to inattention leading to mistakes in the battlefield. We don't really know how a person interacts with the Speed Force. If it's constant or needs to be accessed, so a simple distraction can cause that fatal mistake.

I see your points about the rebirth and I understand where it goes. It also leads to this conclusion. Reverse Flash would not exist if it weren't for Flash. That was his dilemna in life: inability to kill Flash without killing himself.

But the Reverse Flash killed Allen's mother, leading to Allen in that fateful night studying her file getting struck by lightning. Chicken or the egg; who created who?

I came to believe that when Johns wrote Rebirth; The Reverse Flash had already gone back in time and changed Allen's history by killing his mother. Case in point the Flashpoint: Reverse Flash One shot. Reverse Flash understands he cannot kill Allen but can hurt his loved ones and change his life as long as it eventually leads to the lightning strike.

If that is already re-written history, the original one ( this one is before Crisis on infinite Earths) was when his parents were still alive and dies not from Reverse Flash's hands. So Flash's attempts should not have Fracture time so drastically leading to Flashpoint. But maybe since this was the first time that Flash was actually able to change time and he bungles something. Or maybe only Reverse Flash's negative speed force allows time alteration and the regular speed force is more damaging.
I don't know. I suppose an explanation can be thought of, that explains the existence of Flashpoint. DC needs it to lead into the New Universe.

One thing for sure, It certainly is nice to have a conversation and discussion about something with someone with the usual @#$#.

 

[The Mike]

I see your points about the rebirth and I understand where it goes. It also leads to this conclusion. Reverse Flash would not exist if it weren't for Flash. That was his dilemna in life: inability to kill Flash without killing himself.

Absolutely, this has been the bane of Thawne's existence.

But the Reverse Flash killed Allen's mother, leading to Allen in that fateful night studying her file getting struck by lightning. Chicken or the egg; who created who? I came to believe that when Johns wrote Rebirth; The Reverse Flash had already gone back in time and changed Allen's history by killing his mother. Case in point the Flashpoint: Reverse Flash One shot. Reverse Flash understands he cannot kill Allen but can hurt his loved ones and change his life as long as it eventually leads to the lightning strike.

Correct. Remember in Rebirth Barry doesn't understand why he is back but he is filled with the knowledge with that his mother was dead and his father was arrested for the crime. In the original timeline he wasn't investigating his mother's murder, this doesn't really sit well with his consciousness. When he finds out Thawne did it, he realizes that his history was already changed. At that point in Rebirth, Barry isn't The Flash but the Black Flash which would indicate that Pre-Crisis Barry's consciousness is still alive but unsure of why things are changed.

If that is already re-written history, the original one ( this one is before Crisis on infinite Earths) was when his parents were still alive and dies not from Reverse Flash's hands. So Flash's attempts should not have Fracture time so drastically leading to Flashpoint.

This is where I have to disagree. Zoom changed time at one point. Rewriting what had already occurred enough to inflict pain on Barry Allen but not the rest of time since Barry continued forward. Barry himself went back to that same point to stop the murder which caused another rewrite at the same point, this caused a Butterfly effect onto the entire DCU because there are two changes occurring, what occurred originally under Zoom and what is occurring due to Barry's intervention which would negate Zoom's original changes. Negative and Positive energies attempting to coexist and change at the same time which screwed us into Flashpoint. When Barry reaches that point yet again to rewrite again, it splits the entire spectrum which leads to the New 52.

One thing for sure, It certainly is nice to have a conversation and discussion about something with someone with the usual @#$#.

It definitely is fun to talk about this stuff. It's our modern mythology and dissecting the stories is one of the only ways to gain perspective on them. It must be how the Romans and Greeks felt.

 

[amusedjester]

This is where I have to disagree. Zoom changed time at one point. Rewriting what had already occurred enough to inflict pain on Barry Allen but not the rest of time since Barry continued forward. Barry himself went back to that same point to stop the murder which caused another rewrite at the same point, this caused a Butterfly effect onto the entire DCU because there are two changes occurring, what occurred originally under Zoom and what is occurring due to Barry's intervention which would negate Zoom's original changes. Negative and Positive energies attempting to coexist and change at the same time which screwed us into Flashpoint. When Barry reaches that point yet again to rewrite again, it splits the entire spectrum which leads to the New 52.

I like that! It's another one of those time travelling rules where you can't jump into a timeline where you have been already without negating the original effects of your first incursion and creating a paradox. Reverse Flash's actions creates a minor disturbance, Allen's attempt to change that reaction mixes volatilely with Reverse Flash energy to distort into Flashpoint and then Allen's final attempt results in a somewhat familiar yet skewed version of the DC we know.