Better writing and story telling is the cure to what ails them.
Comic books are officially just a PC tool.
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Better writing and story telling is the cure to what ails them.
(just because i dont see it in the city where i live, it means it doesnt exist) flawless SJW logic...
I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not the predominant belief, nor is an individual's folly a solid basis for judging an entire movement, party, belief system, etc.
Flawless strawman.
batfan08
Super Freak
Honestly, that's the double edged sword of comics going mainstream with these constant blockbusters. Yeah, you get to see all your favorite heroes on the big screen, but, suddenly, all those other ticket sales are what these companies start to take note of; the untapped markets, and, in a way, I do think it becomes a bit of an "us vs. them" scenario, but, moreso, in an "old guard vs. new" sort of way. I'm all for diversity in comic books, though, but I do think there has to be a balance. I think DC learned that the hard way. I actually quite liked the DC You initiative. Some great stories came out of it, but I feel like that was really their push to be accepted by the Tumblr/Buzzfeed market, and, if you look at the sales records, they kind of didn't show up.
Take a look at Rebirth, though. You have the, from what I've heard, great Midnighter series returning in the form of a Midnighter and Apollo mini-series, Jessica Cruz is now a Green Lantern, and there's a new Green Lantern title focused on her and Simon Baz, and you still have new characters like Duke Thomas playing a key role in the Batman mythos, but look at what you have returning, too; Wally West, the JSA, Pre-Crisis Superman, and the best part is that DC is diversifying in a big way by bringing back fan favorite characters like Ryan Choi (The Atom), Jaime Reyes (Blue Beetle), and Jackson Hyde (Aqualad from Young Justice). The way they're doing it, though, is spectacular, because it isn't "us vs. them," it's us and them. No longer does Ted Kord have to get his brains blown out for Jaime Reyes to become Blue Beetle, now, they work together as a team. Similarly, Ryan Choi must become The Atom to rescue Ray Palmer.
I don't read Marvel, so, I can't speak to it, but, from an outsiders point of view, it seems like they're more about gimmicks than anyone. It seems like there's a relaunch with all new, all different #1s every year, and it does seem like they just do it for the headlines. "Who is the NEW, FEMALE Thor?" "Meet Sam Wilson: Marvel's New Captain America!" Truth is, though, I have no problem with Riri. More power to them if they can introduce another minority character and have it catch on. I am a white, straight male. I make no apologies for who I am, but, if there's one thing I learned growing up, it's that I had no shortage of heroes to look up to, so, if a young black girl can walk into a comic shop in Brooklyn and find someone to be inspired by as much as I've been by characters like Batman and Superman, that's great.
I get it, I do, and I think people on both sides need to take a more nuanced view of things, because too often do I see conversations devolve into "racists" vs. "the PC Police." To the "racists," (I'm making a point, by the way, I don't actually think you're racists), like I said, diversity should not be an issue. If you do it well, you can have an enduring character that stands the test of time, and, honestly, I think only good things can come from more representation of groups that have been under represented. The world's changed a lot over the years, and I do think this is a medium that's still got some catching up to do, but I think you've got to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water, and that brings me to my next point, in regards to "The PC Police," don't assume that someone's a racist just because they might be judgemental or critical of an initiative to diversify the marketplace.
You have to understand, and I'm guilty of it myself, at times; people are territorial of these characters. Before The Avengers, before Batfleck, and Robert Downey Jr. and, even, Tobey Maguire, there were these guys. When comic companies were on the verge of bankruptcy in the '90s, there were these guys. When Christopher Reeve made people believe a man could fly, and Lynda Carter twirled her way into America's hearts as Wonder Woman, there were these guys. Some of these guys were around when the comics code authority butchered the medium into near obscurity, some arrived during Crises, but there was one constant: these were their heroes. It's not always been cool to be a nerd, and "geek chic" hasn't always been a thing, and I do get where Snake Doctor is coming from with the "cultural appropriation" thing, though, I feel he could've expressed it a bit better, because, at times, the directions these companies take can seem a bit callous in regards to the customer base who supported them before they were a billion dollar industry.
Like "you've been here with us through thick and thin, but now, more and more people are being exposed to our brand, and, in an effort to expand into these untapped markets, we're going to take everything you knew and completely alienate you as we try to bring in fresh blood." These are guys that knew the same Thor, the same Cap, the same Spider-Man, and the same Hulk for decades, and, now, everything is changing. If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that people don't like change; particularly when it's happening to something that they've grown familiar with, but, just because they might disagree with a change that has to do with race, gender, or sexuality, that does not make them a racist, a sexist, or a homophobe, and painting people with such broad strokes is both unfair and dangerous. Anyway, moral of the story: be good to one and other, change doesn't have to be bad, and there's nothing to be afraid of when it's done right, and we should all make more of an effort to get along and bond over our love of funny books.
I think, maybe, I'm done, so...
Take a look at Rebirth, though. You have the, from what I've heard, great Midnighter series returning in the form of a Midnighter and Apollo mini-series, Jessica Cruz is now a Green Lantern, and there's a new Green Lantern title focused on her and Simon Baz, and you still have new characters like Duke Thomas playing a key role in the Batman mythos, but look at what you have returning, too; Wally West, the JSA, Pre-Crisis Superman, and the best part is that DC is diversifying in a big way by bringing back fan favorite characters like Ryan Choi (The Atom), Jaime Reyes (Blue Beetle), and Jackson Hyde (Aqualad from Young Justice). The way they're doing it, though, is spectacular, because it isn't "us vs. them," it's us and them. No longer does Ted Kord have to get his brains blown out for Jaime Reyes to become Blue Beetle, now, they work together as a team. Similarly, Ryan Choi must become The Atom to rescue Ray Palmer.
I don't read Marvel, so, I can't speak to it, but, from an outsiders point of view, it seems like they're more about gimmicks than anyone. It seems like there's a relaunch with all new, all different #1s every year, and it does seem like they just do it for the headlines. "Who is the NEW, FEMALE Thor?" "Meet Sam Wilson: Marvel's New Captain America!" Truth is, though, I have no problem with Riri. More power to them if they can introduce another minority character and have it catch on. I am a white, straight male. I make no apologies for who I am, but, if there's one thing I learned growing up, it's that I had no shortage of heroes to look up to, so, if a young black girl can walk into a comic shop in Brooklyn and find someone to be inspired by as much as I've been by characters like Batman and Superman, that's great.
I get it, I do, and I think people on both sides need to take a more nuanced view of things, because too often do I see conversations devolve into "racists" vs. "the PC Police." To the "racists," (I'm making a point, by the way, I don't actually think you're racists), like I said, diversity should not be an issue. If you do it well, you can have an enduring character that stands the test of time, and, honestly, I think only good things can come from more representation of groups that have been under represented. The world's changed a lot over the years, and I do think this is a medium that's still got some catching up to do, but I think you've got to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water, and that brings me to my next point, in regards to "The PC Police," don't assume that someone's a racist just because they might be judgemental or critical of an initiative to diversify the marketplace.
You have to understand, and I'm guilty of it myself, at times; people are territorial of these characters. Before The Avengers, before Batfleck, and Robert Downey Jr. and, even, Tobey Maguire, there were these guys. When comic companies were on the verge of bankruptcy in the '90s, there were these guys. When Christopher Reeve made people believe a man could fly, and Lynda Carter twirled her way into America's hearts as Wonder Woman, there were these guys. Some of these guys were around when the comics code authority butchered the medium into near obscurity, some arrived during Crises, but there was one constant: these were their heroes. It's not always been cool to be a nerd, and "geek chic" hasn't always been a thing, and I do get where Snake Doctor is coming from with the "cultural appropriation" thing, though, I feel he could've expressed it a bit better, because, at times, the directions these companies take can seem a bit callous in regards to the customer base who supported them before they were a billion dollar industry.
Like "you've been here with us through thick and thin, but now, more and more people are being exposed to our brand, and, in an effort to expand into these untapped markets, we're going to take everything you knew and completely alienate you as we try to bring in fresh blood." These are guys that knew the same Thor, the same Cap, the same Spider-Man, and the same Hulk for decades, and, now, everything is changing. If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that people don't like change; particularly when it's happening to something that they've grown familiar with, but, just because they might disagree with a change that has to do with race, gender, or sexuality, that does not make them a racist, a sexist, or a homophobe, and painting people with such broad strokes is both unfair and dangerous. Anyway, moral of the story: be good to one and other, change doesn't have to be bad, and there's nothing to be afraid of when it's done right, and we should all make more of an effort to get along and bond over our love of funny books.
I think, maybe, I'm done, so...
I do wonder this at times and the best explanation I can come up with now is: mob mentality. Any side of any issue is susceptible to this and social media only exacerbates the problem. It's loud, it's validation-based (drug-like), and it makes becoming part of the mob easier than ever. One or two clicks and you're in.
That's why it's different on the ground. You have to actually do things, have real conversations, meet with people and listen to stories. This takes more time, so a more personal, respectful, and rational approach needs to develop. It does sadden me that online interactions so often devolve into a mob-fueled strawman showdown because it nullifies whatever merits either cause may have.
Though again, it's still not censorship. People will continue to vote with their wallets and companies have no choice but to cater to them. That's how it's always been.
kryptonianmutie
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My belief is that the issues are nuanced and their handling needs to be as well. I don't know that a rally is the way to go, but when civil discourse is often drowned out, people do tend to do louder and bolder things. I can certainly see why BLM exists.
And I do grapple with it, balancing idealism with rationality and pragmatism. I think it's worthwhile trying to figure that out. Whatever helps to develop the patience to listen to others and have a better understanding of the world and its perspectives (whether I agree or not). That's the end goal for me, beyond labels or anything else. If that makes me an SJW or a white knight, so be it. I simply refuse to be reductionist.
And I do grapple with it, balancing idealism with rationality and pragmatism. I think it's worthwhile trying to figure that out. Whatever helps to develop the patience to listen to others and have a better understanding of the world and its perspectives (whether I agree or not). That's the end goal for me, beyond labels or anything else. If that makes me an SJW or a white knight, so be it. I simply refuse to be reductionist.
kryptonianmutie
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See, they got your attention.
I mean... yeah, there you go. Here we are, on a toy forum, having a dialogue because those things happened.
kryptonianmutie
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Lol. There is, but it doesn't bring in the ratings.
Are you really asking that question? Is the movement not valid in your eyes unless it protests every time someone is killed in Chicago? I mean, that happens a lot so it's almost a daily reality. It's part of why BLM exists in the first place.
I'm not quite sure what your point is anymore. Seems like you don't care, yet you're nitpicking it to justify not caring?
Pork Chop Express
I never drive faster than I can see...
. 4 whole characters.
Yah, that's really working it both ways.
What's wrong with 4 characters?
I can come up with more but that's a good start. They would certainly add more diversity to the Marvel U...wouldn't they?
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I agree with him, though I won't say it's only their problem. Part of the issue are the hundreds of years of systemic racism that have gotten the communities to where they are now. The man in this video seems to be reacting to the reality of those communities today, which is absolutely valid, but look at what led to this. Why certain areas have less access to education and higher crime rates.
Here's a video for you. I know it's a lengthier one, but it does a great job of contextualizing everything including today's harsh realities within those areas. And that context matters a lot. This is about the economic policies, the prejudice, and the profiling that has created a landscape where many people born within it are almost doomed to fail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLgIIjnpZyU
Pork Chop Express
I never drive faster than I can see...
No it's not a bad start, but a bit lopsided overall the longer the list goes on.
There's a reason why it's not going the other way.
Lopsided in what way? What's the reason?
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Pork Chop Express
I never drive faster than I can see...
You singled out 4 black heroes, making 1 white and 3 LGBT. Which doesn't change their appearance much, not really. Saying that it can go both ways. If you made a list of black/white/other heroes, that list would overall be lopsided. There wouldn't be much reason to work it the other way...
But hey, make BP a white guy. I don't think that really proves your point. I get your frustration, but those characters are bigger than everyone on this forum put together.
kryptonianmutie
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Well, I don't use Twitter and I stopped using Facebook a long time ago because I couldn't take it anymore after the riots in Baltimore. I'm pretty old school so BLM strategy doesn't appeal to me but I did try to keep up on them initially and they were bringing up the violence in Chicago, occasionally. It would help if police weren't killing people because that's always going to trump anything else media wise so that's what the activists have to talk about first, and then they try to get in tidbits about what ails the black community during interviews, but some of them also put on a show, which annoys me. I like facts, not rhetoric.
Excluding the change for Black Panther, the other 3 would still be black characters despite the PC changes and add to the diversity of the Marvel U. What's the problem? There's a healthy amount of minority characters in the Marvel U. Let's start putting some of them in the LGBT community for a more diverse Marvel U.
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