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Before I get speared I just want to make clear that I did like the film 300 and thought it was rousing entertainment. My point in posting here was to say that regardless of the awareness of folks here, there are many other people who will go see 300 and think that what they have seen - more or less - was the actual history of the Greeks and Persian conflict. As a long time teacher I saw this happen time and time again with many other historical films or TV presentations.

Why shouldn't people go to the movies and believe a Persian leader could be nearly 8 feet tall when they can turn on a real life sporting event and see somebody 7 and 1/2 feet tall? That may have been a question posed in sarcastic jest, but it belies what some people actually do believe.

At some point I would like to see a discussion around the idea of using historical material in a fictional setting. Are there limits to it? Is history merely optional fodder for the writers or filmmakers talents to use or even distort to make a good story?

Lots of people here keep saying that 300 was not based on the actual history but on a comic graphic novel. Thats fair. But what do you think the graphic novel was based on? At some point it all comes back to the source material.

For every person who gets information about Sparta or ancient Persia from The History Channel, there are far more who will see 300. That is not a criticism of the film - just an observation that we should be aware of.

I did like the movie and had a great time watching it. It was fun and well worth my seven dollars.
 
I see 100% what youre saying, and agree to a certain extent.
..but I do say YES history can be used as a base to distort and change around to make an entertaining Hollywood movie.
Now if this 300 version was being shown as a documentary on the History Channel, it would be a problem.

.. but for people who actually hold this film verbatim to be accurate to the historical events? those people are going to have MUCH larger problems in life than being misled by a movie cause theyre obviously naive enough to be victims in many other more important facets of life.
 
All I know is that this movie really made me want to go shove a spear through an Iranian.

And if they really have a problem with us, why don't they just get one of their morbidly obese guys whose arms they have cut off and replaced with blades to come over and behead us?
 
gideon said:
...there are many other people who will go see 300 and think that what they have seen - more or less - was the actual history of the Greeks and Persian conflict.

Believe it or not, there are a crapload of people that don't even know that the Battle of Thermypolae was a real event in history. One of them being my brother; people see a trailer to a kick ass movie and they wanna go see it, 9 times outta 10 they could give rat's behind about whether it was real or not. So sad, but very true.

P.S. After I read the graphic novel I read up about it on Wikipedia and saw a couple of History Channel show on this event, just to get some background on it.
 
tomandshell said:
All I know is that this movie really made me want to go shove a spear through an Iranian.
I know what you mean Tom, I feel like making some Irani-Kabobs!

tomandshell said:
And if they really have a problem with us, why don't they just get one of their morbidly obese guys whose arms they have cut off and replaced with blades to come over and behead us?
Don't give them any ideas, they might just mount one on one of their fastest camels and have him here in 3 months! :google :D
 
Like Jen said, I think films like these only spur more interest in history and wanting to read more about it. I was that way in high school and still am today.
 
tomandshell said:
All I know is that this movie really made me want to go shove a spear through an Iranian.

And if they really have a problem with us, why don't they just get one of their morbidly obese guys whose arms they have cut off and replaced with blades to come over and behead us?
:horror I am suprised Tom. I never would've imagined you talking in such a way!:nono
 
From what I've heard Miller wanted to make the 300's battle a legendary myth. There are plenty of Greek myths that are extraordinary. Troy very well could have been a actual event that Homer blew out of proportion like Miller did with the 300. Miller was just making a modern version myth of the event. It is just too bad most people are too stupid to realize this. While I haven't seen the film, it seems a little caption at the begining saying "this is a mythical version of the 300's battle and not exactly historically accurate" would have prevented a lot of confusion and problems. I'm just surprised how many people don't realize this is a movie based on a graphic novel based on another movie based on an actual event.
 
tomandshell said:
All I know is that this movie really made me want to go shove a spear through an Iranian.

And if they really have a problem with us, why don't they just get one of their morbidly obese guys whose arms they have cut off and replaced with blades to come over and behead us?

I seriously laughed out loud when I read this. I just got back from seeing this at a Regal Cinema, we had traveled to an IMAX and it was sold out. Let's just say it kicked me in the balls and I loved every second of it. Once all the madness calms down I will see this in IMAX!!!
 
Was it just me or as you walked out of the theater did you want to pick a fight with the nearest person because you were so pumped. I wanted to shove that flashlight up the ushers ass if he walked by me one more time!
 
tomandshell said:
All I know is that this movie really made me want to go shove a spear through an Iranian.

And if they really have a problem with us, why don't they just get one of their morbidly obese guys whose arms they have cut off and replaced with blades to come over and behead us?

you're right, maybe we shouldn't be worried about their nuclear weapons....or maybe these mutants were because of nuclear testing gone wrong. tom you need to join the CIA.
 
Buttmunch said:
From what I've heard Miller wanted to make the 300's battle a legendary myth. There are plenty of Greek myths that are extraordinary. Troy very well could have been a actual event that Homer blew out of proportion like Miller did with the 300. Miller was just making a modern version myth of the event. It is just too bad most people are too stupid to realize this. While I haven't seen the film, it seems a little caption at the begining saying "this is a mythical version of the 300's battle and not exactly historically accurate" would have prevented a lot of confusion and problems. I'm just surprised how many people don't realize this is a movie based on a graphic novel based on another movie based on an actual event.
Exactly.
I don't think there needs to be a disclaimer for 300. Notice that no one got upset about the original 300 Spartans movie from 1962 being just as historically inaccurate. :lol
 
gideon said:
Before I get speared I just want to make clear that I did like the film 300 and thought it was rousing entertainment. My point in posting here was to say that regardless of the awareness of folks here, there are many other people who will go see 300 and think that what they have seen - more or less - was the actual history of the Greeks and Persian conflict. As a long time teacher I saw this happen time and time again with many other historical films or TV presentations.

Why shouldn't people go to the movies and believe a Persian leader could be nearly 8 feet tall when they can turn on a real life sporting event and see somebody 7 and 1/2 feet tall? That may have been a question posed in sarcastic jest, but it belies what some people actually do believe.

At some point I would like to see a discussion around the idea of using historical material in a fictional setting. Are there limits to it? Is history merely optional fodder for the writers or filmmakers talents to use or even distort to make a good story?

Lots of people here keep saying that 300 was not based on the actual history but on a comic graphic novel. Thats fair. But what do you think the graphic novel was based on? At some point it all comes back to the source material.

For every person who gets information about Sparta or ancient Persia from The History Channel, there are far more who will see 300. That is not a criticism of the film - just an observation that we should be aware of.

I did like the movie and had a great time watching it. It was fun and well worth my seven dollars.

Couldn't agree more. And since the subject of sticking Iranians was brought up, by the time of the Peloponnesian War, Sparta and Persia were tight allies in their war against Athens. How's that for a historical irony?
 
Kyuzo said:
Couldn't agree more. And since the subject of sticking Iranians was brought up, by the time of the Peloponnesian War, Sparta and Persia were tight allies in their war against Athens. How's that for a historical irony?

Well England is one of the USA's biggest allies too. I still laugh at that. :lol After all that happened in the revolution and we just forget it ever happened.
 
Sparta? No. This is madness
An expert assesses the gruesome new epic

Mar 11, 2007 04:30 AM
The battle of Thermopylae was real, but how real is 300? Ephraim Lytle, assistant professor of hellenistic history at the University of Toronto, has seen the movie and offers his view.

Article removed, but quoted in my reply and available in a previous post.


800px-Jacques-Louis_David_004.jpg


Okay, I was going to remain quiet in this whole history vs. entertainment argument. But pompous a$$hats like this person make me angry. Little background - I love history. I majored in US History and minored in Military History - specifically Naval Warfare. I had originally contemplated a military career ... but soon discovered I liked reading about getting shot at, much more than actually getting shot at. I eventually parlayed that degree into a mid-level management position. I did that for 4 years, then quit out of disgust. I went back to school (I was on the Bluto 7 year college plan I guess :rolleyes: ) and became a Special Education teacher. Long story short, I have a love of history. Oh, and a love of cinema. But guess what? Unlike those "glorious" assistant professors (what, do they cart the real PHD around like Xerxes... :monkey3 ), I can appreciate the difference. Historical movies aim to do 3 things: 1.) Give a modern audience an overview of a historical event, 2.) Cram historical information that might take weeks to study in a college class, into 2 to 3 hours of film, and 3.) entertain. Guess what? 300 succeeds on every level.

These elitist historians love to spout off about changes and abbreviations, because they want a 10 hour Ken Burns documentary ... not a 2 hour cinema event. They overlook one of the most classic aspects of both literature and cinema: synecdoche - when one uses a part to represent the whole (its of Greek origins none the less :D ). In order to fit something this epic into a graphic novel, Frank Miller had to amalgamize/combine aspects to represent the whole. And, since the movie is based off that book, it too aims to do this. And in my non-PHD opinion, it succeeds. But lets look at the glorious half a professor's complaints with this in mind:

Thus I see no reason to quibble over the absence in 300 of breastplates or modest thigh-length tunics. I can see the graphic necessity of sculpted stomachs and three hundred Spartan-sized packages bulging in spandex thongs.


Ah, so he feigns indifference ... in the most sarcastic tone he can come up with. Well, Miller has said he envisioned the novel as a sort of Greek mythological take on the event. Well, if you look at ancient Greek artwork, the Spartans are often pictured semi-nude in battle. It was to convey their superior skills. Who wouldn't be impressed by someone so confident in their fighting abilities that they would go to war in the nude. Sure, it's history romanticized, but it was classic Greek tradition to do this. So, why does this student of the age fault a modern artist for using the same conventions?


We know little of King Leonidas, so creating a fictitious backstory for him is understandable. Spartan children were, indeed, taken from their mothers and given a martial education called the agoge. They were indeed toughened by beatings and dispatched into the countryside, forced to walk shoeless in winter and sleep uncovered on the ground. But future kings were exempt.


I refer back to my literature lesson :D 300 focuses on King Leonidas. However, it needs to give us an idea of just how a man becomes such an elite warrior. Well, this is how that happened. Since the story focuses on Leonidas, it makes sense to make it his back story. Since we know little about his past, its possible it could be true. But it is true of the majority of Spartan warriors so it serves its purpose.

"Elected annually, the five Ephors were Sparta's highest officials, their powers checking those of the dual kings. There is no evidence they opposed Leonidas' campaign, despite 300's subplot of Leonidas pursuing an illegal war to serve a higher good. For adolescents ready to graduate from the graphic novel to Ayn Rand, or vice-versa, the historical Leonidas would never suffice. They require a superman. And in the interests of portentous contrasts between good and evil, 300's Ephors are not only lecherous and corrupt, but also geriatric lepers."


I will ignore his pompous attempt to chastise us for read "funny books". I guess that kind of contempt is bred among the elite. However, he too is committing the same supposed sin Miller/ movie committed. Ignoring the rampant treachery and corruption present in Ancient Greece at this time. The Greeks were scared - the Persians were a formidable foe worthy of this fear. Many Greeks surrendered to Xerxes armies without a fight in order to either avoid battle or for love of some promised wealth. The "allied" Greek troops fighting for Xerxes numbered around 324,000. The true number of Greeks fighting against the Persians at Thermopylae is estimated at 5,200, Spartans included. It is historical record that many of the Greek city states were rampant with political corruption. In order to show the reader/viewer this sense of treachery and greed, Miller used the Ephors. They represent both the religion and government of the Greeks at the time, so they were a worthy amalgam.

Ephialtes, who betrays the Greeks, is likewise changed from a local Malian of sound body into a Spartan outcast, a grotesquely disfigured troll who by Spartan custom should have been left exposed as an infant to die. Leonidas points out that his hunched back means Ephialtes cannot lift his shield high enough to fight in the phalanx.

Okay, as far as I know it, there are no historical illustrations of Ephialtes. However, this much is known ... he betrayed the Greeks at Thermopylae for money and power. When the Persians were finally defeated at the Battle of Salamis, he fled to Thessaly. Now, consider his legacy. His name is reviled in both ancient and modern Greek. It has come to mean/symbolize: traitor and specifically "nightmare." Well, his appearance in both the comic and the movie personify that legacy rather well.

This touches on 300's most noteworthy abuse of history: the Persians are turned into monsters, but the non-Spartan Greeks are simply all too human. According to Herodotus, Leonidas led an army of perhaps 7,000 Greeks. These Greeks took turns rotating to the front of the phalanx stationed at Thermoplyae where, fighting in disciplined hoplite fashion, they held the narrow pass for two days. All told, some 4,000 Greeks perished there.

Once again I shall invoke the power of synecdoche! Okay, now we are ready. What did the graphic novel and movie focus on again? Athenians? Thespians? No, wait ... it was Spartans. How many Spartans were at this battle? Most historical accounts put that total at 300. Well, that certainly sounds like truth in advertisement. The Spartans were the greatest warriors on that battlefield. So, they get all the acclaim. Lets think modern football - our gladiators of the grid-iron. Who's the quarterback for the Indianapolis Colts? Hmm.... well, if you even have a passing interest in the sport, you know that answer. Now, who's the backup center? Something tells me, unless you are a hardcore Colt fanatic, you have no idea. Well, in this battle, the Spartans were Peyton Manning and everyone else was the backup center. Miller/ the movie do convey that other Greeks fought there by the inclusion of Greeks the Spartans meet up with. They also mention sending the Phocian troops to guard the mountain pass. Its not like either the graphic novel or movie claims that ONLY 300 Spartans were at the battle. It just doesn't focus on the rest of the soldiers. And again, unless you want to turn this into a 10 hour documentary, that's good enough.

Mr. half-a-bee professor also mentions the treatment of the Persian armies. How they were "turned into monsters" and Xerxes is portrayed as an 8 foot freak. But what he neglects to mention is that the Persians welcomed and fostered this persona. Do you think it was coincidence that Xerxes advertised himself as a God-King? The Persians won countless battles without lifting a sword due to the fear their image conveyed. As the Greek contingent that follows the Spartans into battle demonstrated in the movie, many of them were thought to be ghosts ... unkillable. This is a classic tool of warfare - intimidation. The real Persians did everything in their power to scare their opponents into running off the field of battle. What better way to represent this on film than with the fantasy elements that were introduced. I promised you the real Greeks told legends about the Persian soldiers that were much more far-fetched.

Okay, I will get off my soap box now. I just want to summarize my opinion:
300 is a great movie which does an amazing job at entertaining you and a decent job at giving you an overview of a historical event. If you want to know the whole story, pick up a book or rent a History Channel special. Oh, and Assistant Professors should stop giving interviews and focus on their main jobs - getting coffee and grading term papers. The End.

Hmm ... Assistant Professor's name: Ephraim / Ephialtes ... hmm, connection? You be the judge :rotfl
 
Buttmunch said:
Well England is one of the USA's biggest allies too. I still laugh at that. :lol After all that happened in the revolution and we just forget it ever happened.

That is to suggest then that some day, the US and Iran will be best buds, eh? I think not in today's political climate, especially with cultures that don't get over ancient grievances and hold these grudges as a national badge of honor. The American colonists basically shared the same culture and values as their Brit adversaries which I think made it easier for them to bury the hatchet.
 
Kookie said:
Was it just me or as you walked out of the theater did you want to pick a fight with the nearest person because you were so pumped. I wanted to shove that flashlight up the ushers ass if he walked by me one more time!
:rotfl I remember Eddie Murphy saying Italians felt the same way after seeing Rocky. I love movies that energize you after seeing them.

DouglasMcc great post!
 
I had the chance to watch 300 in the IMAX theater tonight and wow... what a differance. I was far more impressed with the sound than I was with the picture. I loved the movie more the second time and am looking forward to a fancy dvd set in the future.
 
DouglasMcc ... great job at refuting many of the complaints about 300. I did teach history for over 30 years - although it was USA history - and since you studied it and seem knowledgable about it please ponder this if you are so inclined and post on it. - When an author or filmmaker uses an actual historical event as a backdrop in a book or film, do you think they have any obligation to be as accurate as is reasonable possible? Or do you believe there are any limits as to the changes that can be made to the actual material before the actual event is distorted to the point where it is bordering on a falsehood?

It seems to me that is a crucial question that has never been answered in debates about historical films going back to D W Griffiths' INTOLERANCE and everything historical put on film since then.
 
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