um..... I guess to entertain or make money? 
Doctor Who - Spoilers!
- Thread starter Memnoch
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um..... I guess to entertain or make money?
I guess there must be a reason we had Full House...
I never found Full House the least bit entertaining... I'm sure it made buckets full of money though and the only agenda they ever had was Jessie's hair and the Beach Boys. 
Kabukiman
Greatest Person Ever
Exactly.
The best Science Fiction, be it Doctor Who, Star Trek, Blade Runner, whatever, usually features an allegorical story.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
...yeah, I agree with having something to say... but frankly the reason I don't watch Torchwood is because I don't need to be told repeatedly that homosexuality is perfectly normal behavior or whatever.
Allegorys, one time stories with a message, fine and dandy, but the everyday character, especially one as beloved as the Doctor should not be turned into a tool to forward a solitary social agenda, IMO.
Cybermen as examples of massassimilation, Daleks as Nazis, those are good choices to make a point, Captain Jack as a Earth saving gay or the Doctor campaigning for transgenderism...not so much.
Allegorys, one time stories with a message, fine and dandy, but the everyday character, especially one as beloved as the Doctor should not be turned into a tool to forward a solitary social agenda, IMO.
Cybermen as examples of massassimilation, Daleks as Nazis, those are good choices to make a point, Captain Jack as a Earth saving gay or the Doctor campaigning for transgenderism...not so much.
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But it is perfectly normal behavior, and it's great that kids can see a reflection of their world and its relationships in their favorite show and see that these are not shameful things. There was a time when having Rose date Mickey or Martha coming from a broken home would have been as outrageous as having Sky Silvestri refer to her girlfriend.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
nor·mal (nôrml)
adj.
1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
2. Biology Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
3. Abbr. n or N Chemistry
a. Designating a solution having one gram equivalent weight of solute per liter of solution.
b. Designating an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight and unbranched chain of carbon atoms.
4. Mathematics
a. Being at right angles; perpendicular.
b. Perpendicular to the direction of a tangent line to a curve or a tangent plane to a surface.
5.
a. Relating to or characterized by average intelligence or development.
b. Free from mental illness; sane.
n.
1. Something normal; the standard: scored close to the normal.
2. The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree.
3.
a. Correspondence to a norm.
b. An average.
4. Mathematics A perpendicular, especially a perpendicular to a line tangent to a plane curve or to a plane tangent to a space curve.
Acceptable, legal, viable, those are different than normal.
I'm fine with Rose dating Mickey, though its awefully coincidental that Martha's father is married to a white woman and that the Bride from the Runaway Bride episode was also marrying a black man. Thus far the only relationship in the nu-Who world that isn't mixed is Rose's parents I suspect thats primarily to explain why Rose is white. What am I getting at? IMO, Its acceptable to do it with one episode or one character, but when its repeated more often than the norm in real life, then it becomes an obvious agenda. And thats what Torchwood is to me. An agenda laden show that has pretty much established all characters as bisexual.
adj.
1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
2. Biology Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
3. Abbr. n or N Chemistry
a. Designating a solution having one gram equivalent weight of solute per liter of solution.
b. Designating an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight and unbranched chain of carbon atoms.
4. Mathematics
a. Being at right angles; perpendicular.
b. Perpendicular to the direction of a tangent line to a curve or a tangent plane to a surface.
5.
a. Relating to or characterized by average intelligence or development.
b. Free from mental illness; sane.
n.
1. Something normal; the standard: scored close to the normal.
2. The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree.
3.
a. Correspondence to a norm.
b. An average.
4. Mathematics A perpendicular, especially a perpendicular to a line tangent to a plane curve or to a plane tangent to a space curve.
Acceptable, legal, viable, those are different than normal.
I'm fine with Rose dating Mickey, though its awefully coincidental that Martha's father is married to a white woman and that the Bride from the Runaway Bride episode was also marrying a black man. Thus far the only relationship in the nu-Who world that isn't mixed is Rose's parents I suspect thats primarily to explain why Rose is white. What am I getting at? IMO, Its acceptable to do it with one episode or one character, but when its repeated more often than the norm in real life, then it becomes an obvious agenda. And thats what Torchwood is to me. An agenda laden show that has pretty much established all characters as bisexual.
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Yep. Which is why those three things have no bearing on whether or not homosexuality is normal. I've seen people take this path before and they invariably implode, because it leads to silliness like "Jews in Idaho are not normal" and other nonsense.
I don't think positive agendas are wrong, but I can see where you're coming from. I think it's a bit disingenuous in a way (not you personally). If TV suddenly reflected actual demographics conservatives would be howling with outrage at the number of gay characters and racial and political minorities. How many Latinos are on TV? How many subcontinental Asians? Are one in 10 characters gay, lesbian or transgendered?
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
If they made a show where Idaho was 100% Jewish and the jokes were for Jews and/or was meant to change people into being Jewish, then I wouldn't watch it, thats all I'm saying.
If Doctor Who became a show specifically targeted to gays and they felt the need to have a token gay Doctor to make gays feel good about seeing themselves "represented", I simply wouldn't watch it anymore.
If Doctor Who became a show specifically targeted to gays and they felt the need to have a token gay Doctor to make gays feel good about seeing themselves "represented", I simply wouldn't watch it anymore.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
I think it would be great to have a more proportional representation of races especially. Latinos and Asians specifically are conspicuous by their absence.
As for sexuality, I think for most show topics, as it is for most of life, its irrelevant to a third party. However, depending on what show/channel you watch, I think its arguable that homosexuality (when sexuality is relevant to plot) is represented far greater than the real world.
Do you think we got a token heterosexual Doctor with the Rose romance?
I completely agree. But it's funny how nobody would have blinked had Sky said "boyfriend" yet a certain type of person notices and moans when she says "girlfriend."
I'm not so sure. You have to toss out shows like Queer as Folk and Will & Grace as their premises demand a constant stream of gay characters for any pretense at reality. So really we're looking at "neutral" shows like CSI or Doctor Who and it's pretty obvious that homosexual characters by and large are vastly underrepresented just in percentage terms.
Personally I don't think this is as important as putting Asians etc on our screens but I'm not going to pretend its overdone. Torchwood pretty much stands alone.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
I don't think there is such a thing as "token heterosexual" because a vast majority of people are heterosexual. There is/was plenty of outcry by the people that apparently want to see homosexuality represented on tv. Otherwise, entire channels like LOGO wouldn't exist. Thats fine.
I'm also more or less "fine" with people wanting to turn Torchwood into a show about homosexuality and bisexuality too. I just won't watch it. Makes me a bit sad that I no longer desire to watch a show that for a while wasn't too shabby, but there's plenty else to watch without feeling like I'm being fed something I don't need.
There are certain issues I'm fine with, but I just don't want to see a specific issue turn the show on its head. IE, if the next Doctor is black, I'm cool with it as long as the actor is good, but if him being black means every episode he has to fight racism and prejudice then I'd rather he be white. And I'm a fan of films like Roots, Glory, etc. Its just thats not what I watch Doctor Who for.
I'm also more or less "fine" with people wanting to turn Torchwood into a show about homosexuality and bisexuality too. I just won't watch it. Makes me a bit sad that I no longer desire to watch a show that for a while wasn't too shabby, but there's plenty else to watch without feeling like I'm being fed something I don't need.
There are certain issues I'm fine with, but I just don't want to see a specific issue turn the show on its head. IE, if the next Doctor is black, I'm cool with it as long as the actor is good, but if him being black means every episode he has to fight racism and prejudice then I'd rather he be white. And I'm a fan of films like Roots, Glory, etc. Its just thats not what I watch Doctor Who for.
The way RTD was going I reckon there'd have been a strong possibility that the 11th Doctor would have been that way inclined.
Trying to make minority groups more acceptable to the mainstream is in many ways an admirable thing but RTD does it in such an "in your face" style that it'll only make those that are already offended by such themes even more unwilling to accept them.
Having a character like Captain Jack is fine but what annoys me are all the blatant references that are obviously there just for the sake of pushing the idea even more aggressively at audiences such as the bit in Planet of the Ood where one of the characters was going on about "Ood Rights" and them being "able to marry now".
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
Not to take this too far off topic, but I used to watch "Six Feet Under". Great show, but after a few seasons everything seemed to be about homosexuality and drug use rather than normal family issues.
Considering the runaway popularity of the show in its home market I don't think there's much to worry about.
Why is that any more inappropriate than what Star Trek was doing in the '60s? The only reason Rose/Mickey and "broken home Martha" aren't blinked at today is because other socially responsible shows got there first and helped normalize those situations.
Good on Doctor Who.
This is a thread about spoilers... not about spoiling a thread.
Start another thread with this as a topic. Doctor Who visibility at SSF is a good thing.
Start another thread with this as a topic. Doctor Who visibility at SSF is a good thing.
I just think that those sort of situations and themes are best suited in something like a soap opera as opposed to Doctor Who.
Fair enough.
ProgMatinee
circlesendwheretheybegin
Unfortunately, the normalizing of broken homes isn't really a good thing...lol.
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