Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Khev]

So when Kylo told Rey that he had retrieved most of the map from the archives of the Empire please explain to me at what point Luke himself placed the directions in the Empire's archives. I mean the *only* way they could retrieve such a map is if he himself left it right? To acknowledge otherwise would just be stupid right? So I guess Luke not only intended for Rey to find him but the entire First Order as well since he left *more* of the map for them than he did for Rey. Brilliant!

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

So when Kylo told Rey that he had retrieved most of the map from the archives of the Empire please explain to me at what point Luke himself placed the directions in the Empire's archives. I mean the *only* way they could retrieve such a map is if he himself left it right? To acknowledge otherwise would just be stupid right?

How did they even know where luke was, he left the map. Damn man how hard headed are you?? You cant find someone if they dont tell you where they are. If your wife just disappeared what would you do?? You would call parent and friends, but if they dont know and you exhausted all resources how would you find her. Google maps cause ya it there

 

[ajp4mgs]

Please state the scene where it is even remotely hinted that Luke himself left anyone a map or that he himself ever so much as set foot on Jakku.

According to LFL's publishing side, Luke never even got close to Jakku on his way to Ahch-To. Here's the route they published in the TLJ Visual Dictionary (I know, I know . . . only after TLJ ruined all the carefully-thought-out plans from before). Might need to zoom in to see the red-dotted flight path that Luke took.



What I find most intriguing is that the planet he started from is the only one that is unnamed in the diagram. Curious.

 

[Khev]

You cant find someone if they dont tell you where they are.

So in other words you've never won a game of Hide-And-Seek. Ever. Suddenly it all makes sense.

 

[ajp4mgs]

So in other words you've never won a game of Hide-And-Seek. Ever. Suddenly it all makes sense.

Luke always played hide-and-seek by leaving a note. Damn, Khev, that one made my day.

 

[TonTon]

How did they even know where luke was, he left the map. Damn man how hard headed are you?? You cant find someone if they dont tell you where they are. If your wife just disappeared what would you do?? You would call parent and friends, but if they dont know and you exhausted all resources how would you find her. Google maps cause ya it there

What?

 

[Khev]

Luke always played hide-and-seek by leaving a note. Damn, Khev, that one made my day.

And to think that all these years I've had the utmost respect for homicide detectives and FBI agents who use profiling, forensics, eye-witness accounts, clues, etc., to locate and apprehend serial killers when all this time they've only ever found the ones that first gave them exact directions to their specific locations, lol.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

So when Kylo told Rey that he had retrieved most of the map from the archives of the Empire please explain to me at what point Luke himself placed the directions in the Empire's archives. I mean the *only* way they could retrieve such a map is if he himself left it right? To acknowledge otherwise would just be stupid right? So I guess Luke not only intended for Rey to find him but the entire First Order as well since he left *more* of the map for them than he did for Rey. Brilliant!

I don’t know, nor do I care, all I’m saying is if someone didn’t want to be found there would be no map to their location as they wouldn’t leave any trails esp a piece of it with the old dude on Jakku to give to Poe to begin with but whatever. If tlj makes sense too you I’m happy for you, just a different breed of Star Wars fandom. Why didn’t kenobi leave a map, why didn’t the empire have his location.. Could it be because he didn’t want to be found by anyone but Luke lol. Anyhow it’s nice there was a map to jake skywalker location, even though he didn’t want to be found, in any case that old dude sure wasn’t luke. The real luke could play hide and seek better then that

 

[TonTon]

You’re right, they (Luke) wouldn’t/didn’t leave a map.

 

[jal76]

The whole Luke leaving a map thing is fascinating...people have literally made up their own plot point, deservedly hate the bad plot point that they made up, and then use their own bad and made up plot point as an example of the sequel trilogy's shortcomings! Beyond fascinating! Luke did not leave a map...watch the movies again.

 

[Bravomite]

The whole Luke leaving a map thing is fascinating...people have literally made up their own plot point, deservedly hate the bad plot point that they made up, and then use their own bad and made up plot point as an example of the sequel trilogy's shortcomings! Beyond fascinating! Luke did not leave a map...watch the movies again.

It's a good point but I think that this speaks to poor editing more than anything else. The fact that many of the general audience seem to have this misconception suggests that the narrative of TFA wasn't clear enough.

Even if you break it all down like AJP has helpfully done, the whole "map to Luke Skywalker" thing still appears a bit muddled to me.

How long ago did Luke leave? Was it immediately after Kylo burned down his school or later? Did he tell / confide in anyone where he was going / what he was looking i.e. the ancient Jedi temple? Who did he divulge that information too?

In TFA when Han was dumping some exposition on Rey and Finn about Luke's disappearance was he a reliable narrator? Did Han know directly from Luke or indirectly that Luke was looking for an ancient Jedi temple? Or did Han / Leia guess that Luke would skulk off to an ancient Jedi temple of unknown location? Also I want to know when Han and Leia separated, was it before or after Ben's turn, I really dislike that TFA broke them up.

My point is that for this theory to work, someone must have known that Luke was going to the ancient Jedi temple otherwise how did they know to look for a map to that place... But (thanks to TLJ) we now know that Luke wanted to go to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to effectively take himself off the chess board. So if that was his intention, why did he bother to tell / hint to anyone that he was going to an ancient Jedi temple, the two ideas just do not reconcile with each other to my mind.

The impression that TFA gave me with was that Luke left after Ben's turn to search for an ancient Jedi temple for reasons unknown. Hence both the goodies and the baddies knew that not only was it possible to find him again but it seemed logical that both sides would actively be working to obtain a map to the place that they knew he had gone to. JJ significantly had Luke wearing his white Jedi master robes in the final scene of TFA and originally had intended for him to be levitating boulders when Rey found him (so not cut off from the force or hiding because he had given up and wanted the Jedi to end).

TLJ made it clear that Luke had actually cut himself off from the force because he thought that the Jedi (meaning himself in the context of the current struggle for Ben Solo) did more harm than good. Luke was hiding away and was waiting to die a recluse and a hermit, hoping to take the Jedi order with him (being the last Jedi and all). Luke also changed his clothes to emphasise how super serious he was about being depressed now (unlike moments before in TFA when he was dressed the part of confident and enlightened Jedi master).

Despite AJP's best efforts (and I applaud you because your analysis does make for an interesting read), I do not agree that Rian's retcon answer to the question of Luke's disappearance is the only logical reason for it. I surmise that if Luke had cut himself off from the force that Leia would have believed that he was gone because their force connection would have been broken. Luke going into hiding to die alone as penance for his failure with Ben is all fine and good but why go to the Jedi temple at all ... just go to some backwater planet like Tatooine / Jakku and disappear amongst all the other self loathing degenerates in a bar that refuses entry to driods or something. Most importantly don't leave any clue as to your location whether it be a map or casually mentioning to your mates that you if you were to have mid-life-Jedi crisis that would like go to find yourself on that ancient Jedi temple planet that looks like Ireland.

 

[Khev]

Great post Bravomite. However with regard to this:

It's a good point but I think that this speaks to poor editing more than anything else. The fact that many of the general audience seem to have this misconception suggests that the narrative of TFA wasn't clear enough.

Stating that the narrative was half-baked or unclear is very different than making up your own unsubstantiated plot points and then stating them as fact. And TFA did actually establish Han as a credible narrator since both he and Leia would assumedly come to the same conclusions about where Luke was which means that Leia was looking for a map to the very place that Han described, a map that really did lead Rey to Luke in the final scene of the film.

I wish that the film shed much more light on how the galaxy came to be in its current state as well but that's no excuse to criticize made up nonsense that was never even hinted at on screen.

Also RJ's motivations for Luke going to the island *and* possibly telling Leia outright that he was headed to the First Jedi Temple were nicely explained by TLJ's revelation that he originally went there to die especially if he assumed that his death would occur sooner rather than later. If that's the case then there's no harm in him hinting that he's going somewhere that Leia may or may not find on her own since even if they did stumble across some lost map he'd be a Force Ghost by the time they got there anyway.

Or maybe he assumed that he'd live there for decades as a recluse unaware that R2 and Lor San Tekka had pieces that could be combined to find him. Either scenario works.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

It's a good point but I think that this speaks to poor editing more than anything else. The fact that many of the general audience seem to have this misconception suggests that the narrative of TFA wasn't clear enough.

Even if you break it all down like AJP has helpfully done, the whole "map to Luke Skywalker" thing still appears a bit muddled to me.

How long ago did Luke leave? Was it immediately after Kylo burned down his school or later? Did he tell / confide in anyone where he was going / what he was looking i.e. the ancient Jedi temple? Who did he divulge that information too?

In TFA when Han was dumping some exposition on Rey and Finn about Luke's disappearance was he a reliable narrator? Did Han know directly from Luke or indirectly that Luke was looking for an ancient Jedi temple? Or did Han / Leia guess that Luke would skulk off to an ancient Jedi temple of unknown location? Also I want to know when Han and Leia separated, was it before or after Ben's turn, I really dislike that TFA broke them up.

My point is that for this theory to work, someone must have known that Luke was going to the ancient Jedi temple otherwise how did they know to look for a map to that place... But (thanks to TLJ) we now know that Luke wanted to go to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to effectively take himself off the chess board. So if that was his intention, why did he bother to tell / hint to anyone that he was going to an ancient Jedi temple, the two ideas just do not reconcile with each other to my mind.

The impression that TFA gave me with was that Luke left after Ben's turn to search for an ancient Jedi temple for reasons unknown. Hence both the goodies and the baddies knew that not only was it possible to find him again but it seemed logical that both sides would actively be working to obtain a map to the place that they knew he had gone to. JJ significantly had Luke wearing his white Jedi master robes in the final scene of TFA and originally had intended for him to be levitating boulders when Rey found him (so not cut off from the force or hiding because he had given up and wanted the Jedi to end).

TLJ made it clear that Luke had actually cut himself off from the force because he thought that the Jedi (meaning himself in the context of the current struggle for Ben Solo) did more harm than good. Luke was hiding away and was waiting to die a recluse and a hermit, hoping to take the Jedi order with him (being the last Jedi and all). Luke also changed his clothes to emphasise how super serious he was about being depressed now (unlike moments before in TFA when he was dressed the part of confident and enlightened Jedi master).

Despite AJP's best efforts (and I applaud you because your analysis does make for an interesting read), I do not agree that Rian's retcon answer to the question of Luke's disappearance is the only logical reason for it. I surmise that if Luke had cut himself off from the force that Leia would have believed that he was gone because their force connection would have been broken. Luke going into hiding to die alone as penance for his failure with Ben is all fine and good but why go to the Jedi temple at all ... just go to some backwater planet like Tatooine / Jakku and disappear amongst all the other self loathing degenerates in a bar that refuses entry to driods or something. Most importantly don't leave any clue as to your location whether it be a map or casually mentioning to your mates that you if you were to have mid-life-Jedi crisis that would like go to find yourself on that ancient Jedi temple planet that looks like Ireland.

Of course it doesn’t make sense if Luke went there to die and didnt want to be found, he wouldn’t have told anyone where he went, there would be no map to his location. Rian lovers just refuse to accept it, and I guarantee most of your post about this this will be ignored because they like his retcon

 

[ajp4mgs]

It's a good point but I think that this speaks to poor editing more than anything else. The fact that many of the general audience seem to have this misconception suggests that the narrative of TFA wasn't clear enough.

I can't disagree with that. TFA left more questions than answers. I'm not going to debate the merits of the "mystery boxes" approach (again: for the most part, I really enjoyed TFA), but it runs the risk of leaving things unclear in a way that compromises the story integrity.

My point is that for this theory to work, someone must have known that Luke was going to the ancient Jedi temple otherwise how did they know to look for a map to that place... But (thanks to TLJ) we now know that Luke wanted to go to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to effectively take himself off the chess board. So if that was his intention, why did he bother to tell / hint to anyone that he was going to an ancient Jedi temple, the two ideas just do not reconcile with each other to my mind.

Luke never had to tell anyone where he was specifically going. Han's vague description about "those who knew him best" thinking that he'd gone in search of the ancient Jedi Temple at least makes it clear that the source of Luke's likely whereabouts was only a select few people (maybe even just one person). Han may have even been talking about Leia. After all, he wouldn't need to mention Leia by name to Rey and Finn . . . they don't know her. Or, Luke could have confided in another person(s) closest to him (maybe a lover; maybe a family friend).

Either way, Luke would be a good enough person to let those who care most about him know that he was leaving, but without letting anyone know specifically where to. And as long as someone knew how hard Luke took his failure with Ben, and knew that Luke blamed the Jedi as much as he blamed himself, there are tons of ways they could've put the clues together as to where he'd be going.

Even if he mentioned an ancient Temple, finding it could be nearly impossible for those who didn't have knowledge about the origins of the Jedi. So Leia eventually starts her search for any clue as to how to find it (like with a map), and comes across Lor San Tekka (who worships and studies the Jedi). That's how we find the situation at the beginning of TFA.

The impression that TFA gave me with was that Luke left after Ben's turn to search for an ancient Jedi temple for reasons unknown. Hence both the goodies and the baddies knew that not only was it possible to find him again but it seemed logical that both sides would actively be working to obtain a map to the place that they knew he had gone to. JJ significantly had Luke wearing his white Jedi master robes in the final scene of TFA and originally had intended for him to be levitating boulders when Rey found him (so not cut off from the force or hiding because he had given up and wanted the Jedi to end).

Which Rian Johnson realized would be a problem because Luke would be on that island playing with rocks after he would've sensed the lives on FIVE planets ending suddenly. He also would've sensed Leia's yearning to bring him back. And Han's death. And he would've responded by . . . levitating boulders on the edge of a cliff? I know that I keep repeating myself, but that would be a pretty big problem if Luke hadn't been cut off from the Force. So Johnson asked JJ to cut the boulder-lifting gag in order to reconcile Luke's continued exile and non-action.

TLJ made it clear that Luke had actually cut himself off from the force because he thought that the Jedi (meaning himself in the context of the current struggle for Ben Solo) did more harm than good. Luke was hiding away and was waiting to die a recluse and a hermit, hoping to take the Jedi order with him (being the last Jedi and all). Luke also changed his clothes to emphasise how super serious he was about being depressed now (unlike moments before in TFA when he was dressed the part of confident and enlightened Jedi master).

There was more to it than just dying and changing clothes so as not to be in Jedi wardrobe. We can make a reasonable extrapolation that when Rey found Luke, and he was wearing the ceremonial Jedi outfit, he was thinking of doing what he tried to do at the end of TLJ when he wore that same outfit again: burn the Temple and the sacred texts.

Luke going into hiding to die alone as penance for his failure with Ben is all fine and good but why go to the Jedi temple at all ...

The Jedi Temple is where the sacred Jedi texts were. If Luke wanted to end the Jedi Order for good, he'd want to erase any wisdom or instructions that could be used by someone in the future to just restart everything. As I mentioned, TLJ seems to hint that Luke puts on the ceremonial Jedi outfit in order to perform that last act of burning the Temple (and scriptures). Even at the end, though, he could never fully bring himself to go through with it. He was conflicted (apparently a permanent trait of the Skywalkers). Along came Yoda.

I guarantee most of your post about this this will be ignored because they like his retcon

How's that guarantee working out for you? Is there anything about his post that you think I missed? Just let me know.

 

[Khev]

It's a lot like Terminator 2 with Sarah deciding that the best way to defeat Skynet was to take out a good man and all his files. She realized that they were in a "loop" of sorts and the only way to break it in her mind was to stop things before they began. Did she tell anyone she was going to off Dyson? No. Did she tell John where Dyson lived? No. But those who knew her best figured it out based on the clues she left, John used his "map" (Arnold's detailed files) and went and tracked her down. Even after they decided that killing Dyson himself wasn't the way to go Arnold still thought it was best for the "T-800 order to die" and decided that he should be terminated. None of those were unheroic decisions save for arguably Sarah targeting Dyson which also overlaps with TLJ when Luke momentarily considered killing Kylo in his hut. Unlike Sarah however Luke didn't actually follow through with attempting to murder him even though Kylo was genuinely evil compared to innocent and oblivious Dyson.

 

[chewblacca]

Luke sees that Ben is evil, but he is so beyond help that he considers killing him? That really bothers me and seems out of place for the person who helped redeem Darth Vader, a character who really was evil.

 

[Khev]

Luke sees that Ben is evil, but he is so beyond help that he considers killing him? That really bothers me and seems out of place for the person who helped redeem Darth Vader, a character who really was evil.

Vader: Evil but with some good in him, conflict
Kylo: Evil with no good in him

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Yes Ben Solo was beyond help. He assisted in the destruction of six planets, far more innocent deaths than Vader and even Emperor Palpatine himself. We can easily assume that all of those deaths (in addition to half of Luke's other students) hit Luke in his vision like a far greater freight train than the one that unsettled Old Ben when Alderaan was destroyed. He reacted instinctively but didn't follow through.

 

[chewblacca]

I still refuse to believe that Luke just gave up so easily. Like Hamill said this goes against character type. If your going by the books, in the novelizatiion of Return of the Jedi Luke believes that no one is beyond redemption. But I guess Johnson who explains more in the books than the movie didn’t read the novelizations.

 

[NYallDay]

If you haven’t already, please check out mauler on YouTube. He has multiple rants (but factional and educated) and a 3 part review as well. I find it awesome


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[Prime Clone]

Vader: Evil but with some good in him, conflict
Kylo: Evil with no good in him

To me, Kylo always seemed more conflicted or "try hard" than Vader. I rationalise Luke's actions by him seeing a brief flash of Kylo's future and being momentarily overwhelmed.