Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
My point was that even OT Luke might have been different in dealing with Anakin/Vader if he had been the one personally responsible for failing Anakin. But he wasn't. Kenobi had to deal with that, and why he said, "I've failed you Anakin." It's tougher to believe you can turn someone around when you yourself are responsible for their downfall. It's called a conscience. And good people carry stronger burdens of conscience. And great people even get so weighed down by things like guilt that they do things that are out of character.

Then you said that I didn't understand that Kenobi had a different belief system, and that if I did understand it I'd know how different he was from Luke. So I used Kenobi's own words to give you some background on his belief system not being quite as cemented in absolutes as was being suggested.

But obi wan wasnt responsible for anakins turn it was palpatine and his love for padme. With ben, you could argue that jake skywalker caused his turn by sneaking into his room while he was sleeping and igniting his saber as if he was going to kill him. First, luke skywalker would never do that, and if he did, **** up that bad he would do anything in his power to try and fix it. Not just hide away and say **** it, ben did t even do that he tried to make good on his percieved mistake with anakin by watching over his son luke

Excellent back and forth here. Ajp4mgs I understand where you are coming from but I disagree with your interpretation that because these were similar circumstances the characters would likely act in a similar manner. That was one of the nice points about it the OT (later really reinforced by the PT) that Ben and Yoda were from the old guard of the Jedi and both could not see a means of defeating the Sith other than to kill them. Luke's world view wasn't entrenched by the strict Jedi code. He only had the basics of the understanding of the Jedi from Yoda and Ben and then he projected his own moralities onto what he thought a Jedi ought to be and tried to be like that.

In many ways he was lot like Qui-gon and younger Anakin of the PT. Jedi at their core should just do the morally right thing and help enlighten and protect those around them - this appeared to be lil Ani's view of the Jedi before he became one. Somewhere along the way the old republic Jedi order lost sight of that, getting wrapped up in politics and power struggles. Becoming soldiers and spending their entire life suppressing and fearing their emotions and attachments lest it lead to the dark side. Hence I do not believe that Luke would act in the Obi-wan manner as set out in TLJ, he is a fundamentally different person with a different morale compass and belief system.

Man I wish we had seen Luke's Jedi school and his way of teaching, that would have been something interesting and rewarding for the audience after ROTJ. It would also have given us a reference point and understanding when it was all torn down and the first order rose up.

Only Siths deal in absolutes. Oh the irony of that statement coming from the one character who was more steadfast and untielding in his beliefs than any other, nice one George. At least force ghost Obi-wan and Yoda were able to realise their errors at the end of ROTJ.
 
3wRKPP7.gif

:lol :lol

Ever since RO I've had one foot out of the "ST is canon" circle and if Kylo is redeemed then that would probably push me the rest of the way out for good.

Well, I guess I'll have to enjoy the next 14 months while you're still on the pro-ST train. But come December 20, 2019 . . . you will have turned. And I'll be there when you crawl away from your fiery doom to scream "I HATE YOU!!!!!"

:lol

Lol, well I was able to enjoy all three prequels during my initial viewings (SW hype cannot be underestimated) before the realization of how bad they were quickly set in. So I'm sure I'll be able to do some high-fiving for at least a little while after Episode IX is released no matter how far off the rails it goes. :D
 
:lol :lol

Ever since RO I've had one foot out of the "ST is canon" circle and if Kylo is redeemed then that would probably push me the rest of the way out for good.

When you say "redeemed" what exactly does that look like to you? Does it mean that Kylo really does turn good and helps Rey and the Resistance achieve their goal and they all live happily ever after? Or is it something closer to Vader's "redemption" where he performs an act of heroism to save Rey & Co but ends up dying as a result? I can see them doing something like the second example and I would be ok with that. But honestly at this point I can't begin to guess what they're going to do.
 
Excellent back and forth here. Ajp4mgs I understand where you are coming from but I disagree with your interpretation that because these were similar circumstances the characters would likely act in a similar manner. That was one of the nice points about it the OT (later really reinforced by the PT) that Ben and Yoda were from the old guard of the Jedi and both could not see a means of defeating the Sith other than to kill them. Luke's world view wasn't entrenched by the strict Jedi code. He only had the basics of the understanding of the Jedi from Yoda and Ben and then he projected his own moralities onto what he thought a Jedi ought to be and tried to be like that.

In many ways he was lot like Qui-gon and younger Anakin of the PT. Jedi at their core should just do the morally right thing and help enlighten and protect those around them - this appeared to be lil Ani's view of the Jedi before he became one. Somewhere along the way the old republic Jedi order lost sight of that, getting wrapped up in politics and power struggles. Becoming soldiers and spending their entire life suppressing and fearing their emotions and attachments lest it lead to the dark side. Hence I do not believe that Luke would act in the Obi-wan manner as set out in TLJ, he is a fundamentally different person with a different morale compass and belief system.

Man I wish we had seen Luke's Jedi school and his way of teaching, that would have been something interesting and rewarding for the audience after ROTJ. It would also have given us a reference point and understanding when it was all torn down and the first order rose up.

Only Siths deal in absolutes. Oh the irony of that statement coming from the one character who was more steadfast and untielding in his beliefs than any other, nice one George. At least force ghost Obi-wan and Yoda were able to realise their errors at the end of ROTJ.

You and I agree on more (in terms of characterizations) than we disagree. But when it comes to how Luke reacted to Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren, I fundamentally disagree with your interpretation that Luke wouldn't have reacted like Kenobi did with Anakin becoming Vader. In large part, that's because I strongly disagree with your view that their moral compasses and belief systems were vastly different from one another.

Obi-Wan and Yoda never strayed from Jedi ethics just because they served in more military-like roles in the Clone Wars. And their belief that Sith had to be killed is not a sign of moral degradation; it's a recognition of a harsh reality. Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin - not even close! The line of "you were like my brother" speaks to how much it pained him to do his duty in that moment. Even then, Kenobi tried to warn Anakin with that monumentally-stupid "I have the high ground" line. And if killing the Sith was his priority, Kenobi would've finished the job with Anakin - but he couldn't bring himself to do it (even if perhaps assuming that Anakin was as good as dead).

The way TLJ explained why Luke exiled himself for years was the best possible way to take a horrible idea (his exile that TFA established) and make it tolerable. Luke didn't just leave because Ben was beyond redemption; Luke left because he was heartbroken over his failure to learn lessons from the past. All the grief that Anakin's turn had caused was now going to be repeated all over again. It happened with Ben/Kylo under Luke's tutelage, much like it happened with Anakin/Vader under Obi-Wan's tutelage. And they reacted the same way: by recognizing that they can't save someone who blames them for their downfall. Anakin blamed Kenobi. Ben Solo blamed Luke.

If either Vader or Kylo were to be redeemed, someone else besides the masters who failed them (and betrayed them in their eyes) would have to be the ones to reach them (his son in Vader's case, and yet to be revealed in Kylo's case). The great thing about the TLJ justification is that it added Luke's effort to end the Jedi as his selfless attempt to end the cycle of grief and misery that had claimed his father, and now his nephew. In my opinion, TLJ saved and rescued the ST from a horrible mess with Luke that TFA established. And having Yoda come back and give Luke a redirecting lesson was the perfect way to get him back in the game.

The parallels between PT/OT Kenobi and TLJ Luke aren't because of bad writing or flawed characterization, they're more like the poetic parallels that Lucas has famously been fond of between his trilogies. Similar circumstances leading to similar behavior from two Jedi who were never as entirely different as you suggest. But I don't expect that I can convince you that Kenobi and Luke were similar, since even Obi-Wan had a hard time convincing Yoda that he and Luke were similar. Remember these lines spoken in Yoda's hut?

Kenobi Ghost: "Was I any different when you taught me?"

Then . . .

Kenobi Ghost: "So was I, if you'll remember."

:lol
 
When you say "redeemed" what exactly does that look like to you? Does it mean that Kylo really does turn good and helps Rey and the Resistance achieve their goal and they all live happily ever after? Or is it something closer to Vader's "redemption" where he performs an act of heroism to save Rey & Co but ends up dying as a result? I can see them doing something like the second example and I would be ok with that. But honestly at this point I can't begin to guess what they're going to do.

At this point I don't even want him to go out in a blazy of glory that earns him a Force Ghost. I think they should just commit to the bit that he's rotten to the core. Even Yoda told Luke that Ben Solo was lost.
 
At this point I don't even want him to go out in a blazy of glory that earns him a Force Ghost. I think they should just commit to the bit that he's rotten to the core. Even Yoda told Luke that Ben Solo was lost.

Han and Leia's only child..that's depressing. Just another reason I regret ever wanting sequels to ROTJ featuring the OT cast.
 
Han and Leia's only child..that's depressing.

ESB Vader's ultimate revenge on Captain Solo.

But at least Han and Leia's child is solely responsible for destroying Snoke which I can just assume ultimately resulted in the galaxy being saved long term. So a tragic end for Han that still allowed him to "take one for the team" with regard to the good of the entire galaxy.
 
I am also not into the redemption story....a this point its too derivative.

But I can tell you that the story writers like it.

George liked it.

Parallels are all the rage in hollywood. I wish it were not. Lets see something new.
I would rather see a downright evil Kylo birthed from the good side, and a regular unsung/unknown hero in Rey.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Keeping Kylo evil will also heighten Vader's redemption as a unique triumph. As it stands Vader's character has been diluted enough, I really don't want his arc to just be one of many that repeats itself every generation.

You guys have convinced me that I should just brace myself for more of the same though.
 
Keeping Kylo evil will also heighten Vader's redemption as a unique triumph. As it stands Vader's character has been diluted enough, I really don't want his arc to just be one of many that repeats itself every generation.

You guys have convinced me that I should just brace myself for more of the same though.

I agree with you that Kylo should stay evil. It would not only keep Vader's redemption unique, and validate much of the setup in 7 & 8, but it would also be a bold narrative for a Disney franchise as prominent as SW.

With that said, though: yeah Khev, start readying yourself to be disappointed. :lol Kylo's getting redeemed.

I'd been assuming that Leia would be the one to get through to her son. Leia and Ben are not only mother and child, but that bond also gives them a connected bond with the Force (like Luke had with Vader, which aided in redeeming him). Han didn't have the Force connection; he wasn't able to reach Kylo that way. Luke had the Force, but wasn't linked with a parental bond - and more importantly, Luke was the object of Kylo's rage. Leia would have been the one.

Now that Leia isn't an option, I'm really curious how they'll try to pull this off. I don't see any way they'll let the Skywalker Saga end with the last Skywalker left standing go down as irredeemably evil. That's not the Skywalker legacy that I think LFL or Disney wants to leave in place.
 
I agree with you that Kylo should stay evil. It would not only keep Vader's redemption unique, and validate much of the setup in 7 & 8, but it would also be a bold narrative for a Disney franchise as prominent as SW.

With that said, though: yeah Khev, start readying yourself to be disappointed. :lol Kylo's getting redeemed.

I'd been assuming that Leia would be the one to get through to her son. Leia and Ben are not only mother and child, but that bond also gives them a connected bond with the Force (like Luke had with Vader, which aided in redeeming him). Han didn't have the Force connection; he wasn't able to reach Kylo that way. Luke had the Force, but wasn't linked with a parental bond - and more importantly, Luke was the object of Kylo's rage. Leia would have been the one.

Now that Leia isn't an option, I'm really curious how they'll try to pull this off. I don't see any way they'll let the Skywalker Saga end with the last Skywalker left standing go down as irredeemably evil. That's not the Skywalker legacy that I think LFL or Disney wants to leave in place.

Assuming he is the last Skywalker


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Kylo was never a "Skywalker" anyway. He was a Solo with Skywalker blood.

I could see him staying evil, being killed, and then some cool moment (maybe the final scene of the entire Saga) where nobody Rey is given the honorary surname of Skywalker by Luke's ghost himself. Then they could keep the "rhyming" motif but have it be a parallel of Han receiving his name instead of a parallel with Vader being redeemed.

That would make for a nice theme across several movies of making your own name, choosing your own path, instead of simply inheriting family greatness. Even Luke himself would benefit as a hero since Kylo's fall and ultimate destruction would prove that Luke's own victories were never about his blood but rather his character and personal choices.
 
Disney is out to do two things.

1. End the idea of special blood, they want everyone to be able to use the force.

2. Break away from the OT character and make new films not ties to them.


So any ideas have to fit that narrative.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Some great back and forth here. I appreciate both sides of the argument (though I lean towards the positive side).
I don't think it's perfect, neither do I think it's the best SW movie, but I do like it better than TFA. Some minor stuff I want to react to:

But obi wan wasnt responsible for anakins turn it was palpatine and his love for padme. With ben, you could argue that jake skywalker caused his turn by sneaking into his room while he was sleeping and igniting his saber as if he was going to kill him. First, luke skywalker would never do that, and if he did, **** up that bad he would do anything in his power to try and fix it. Not just hide away and say **** it, ben did t even do that he tried to make good on his percieved mistake with anakin by watching over his son luke

I do think Ben is partly to blame for Anakin's turn. Ben was Anakin's mentor. Anakin's fall into the dark side is partly his responsibility in the same way a CEO is ultimately to blame for the failure of a company or an SO is to blame for the failure of a military mission. It all boils down to taking responsibility.

It becomes doubly worse in a universe like SW where there is a "Force" that can link you with other living things and give you a more intimate sense of them. Ben should have seen Anakin's conflicted nature. He should have seen that Anakin was feeling that the council was treating him unfairly, and that he felt that he was being pushed aside by denying him the title of Jedi Master. All of that gave Palpatine the opening he needed to sway Anakin to the dark side.

With Ben and Luke, we do not know with certainty what Luke saw, or what Ben had already done before that. For all we know Ben did an Anakin vs the Tuskens already. There is still a lot of backstory on Ben to be explored. Was the ignited saber what turned Ben? Maybe. But for all we know, he could have probably been turned already at that point.

Either way, both Luke and Kenobi were both to blame for their apprentices' turns to the dark side. Both fell short as masters because both were blinded by their relationship to their pupil. Obi-Wan saw Anakin as a brother, and Luke saw Ben as his nephew. Both masters were so sure of themselves that they got blindsided in the end.

The great thing about the TLJ justification is that it added Luke's effort to end the Jedi as his selfless attempt to end the cycle of grief and misery that had claimed his father, and now his nephew. In my opinion, TLJ saved and rescued the ST from a horrible mess with Luke that TFA established.

Yeah I agree with this. TFA (in typical JJ fashion) left a lot of messy mystery boxes. That's why I am cautiously optimistic about Episode XI. JJ makes some great mysteries, but he isn't that well known at providing good resolutions to them. For better or worse, TLJ steered SW into a definite trajectory with concrete storylines to follow. It may not be the story everyone wants to lead to, but it's definitely better in my opinion with the mess of questions TFA left us with.
 
Back
Top