Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Khev]

For me, the novel-length posts are just ways to get out how much I love this stuff. There are people who get to write articles and novels about SW - and are paid to do it - but I think many of them would do it for free. I'm one of those who isn't fortunate enough to be paid for it, but willingly do it for free just because I actually enjoy it. With that said, here's my last novel (hopefully) in this thread.

Something long associated with Star Wars has been the notion of "Balance of the Force." Most of the times that I've seen it brought up, fans treat it with uncertainty and confusion. In part, that's because I think some creators/writers are clueless as to what it was supposed to represent in the first place. The way I see it, the concept is really pretty simple.

The term "balance" usually implies two equally-weighted sides. So, if balance of the Force refers to the dark side and the light side, it's easy to assume that balance would simply mean equal light and dark. And while that's essentially true, it can't be simplified like that. And that's where TLJ stepped in to provide what I think is the best onscreen explanation of SW "balance" in existence. And the film did it with two different scenes.

The first scene was when Luke was telling Rey to reach out and "feel" the Force. What she saw was an equal balance of things that binds the universe together. That's the Force at work. It's a spiritual understanding of the nature of existence. And for the Jedi, it's their religion! The Force is like their God. But the Force has a light side and dark side where both can be tapped into to bring about enhanced results of what each side contributes to the universe. Too much light presents no obstacle to the natural order; but too much dark is a major problem.

Rey tells Luke what she sees, and RJ shows it to us with fleeting images. She sees "life . . . death and decay that feeds new life;" and then "warmth . . . cold;" and ultimately "peace . . . violence." Then Luke asks, "And between it all?" to which Rey answers, "Balance . . . energy . . . a force." For me, that's what "balance of the Force" is all about: keeping the Force in synchronized harmony so that life (and the universe) can continue to exist and evolve the way it's supposed to. I think that scene was as perfect for a SW nerd like me as it can get.

The reason I believe there was a prophecy of the Chosen One in the PT is because George Lucas was telling us why Anakin's journey ended up being so pivotal to restoring balance. By the time we were introduced to SW (with ANH), Palpatine had already disturbed the balance. It was out of whack in the OT. Palpatine/Sidious was a Sith who managed to ascend to a level of power that the Jedi weren't capable of dealing with. Anakin's birth came when Palps was already planting the seeds (and training Maul). That "magical" birth was the Force interceding to allow one special individual to restore balance to what was about to be a severe turn to the dark where an entire galaxy was being oppressed, and entire planets were going to be wiped out.

Which brings me to the second scene, which is really just one line. In Snoke's throne room, he tells Kylo that "darkness rises, and light to meet it." I think too many people take that to mean that the Force has to step in and empower a future Jedi every time someone taps into the dark side. But I don't think that's it at all. I don't think it's about having an equal number of chess pieces (light and dark) on the board. Rather, it's about not letting the dark suffocate the light. Palpatine had accomplished it once, and Snoke with Kylo were threatening to do it again (but not nearly as thoroughly as Palps had).

Balance requires that no dark side user can disturb the overarching harmony of universal order. Jedi don't pose a threat to that. There can be a billion Jedi throughout the galaxy, and they'll never mess with the balance. If there's no evil to thwart, the Jedi simply live very passive lives. But the Sith only exist to try to change order and balance in favor of darkness and death. They are proactive, not passive, by their very nature. So when a darksider gets too powerful for the Jedi to stop, the Force has to provide a new chess piece to help restore proper balance. Otherwise, light would get suffocated for good.

Sidious was getting too influential, so Anakin came along to balance him. But Anakin ended up on the dark side, and needed an anchor to keep him from going so far that he'd end up replacing what he stopped. So, the twins were born. Luke's brave approach to redeem his father rather than fight him was the anchor that Anakin needed. Then when Snoke became too powerful (in the shadows where Luke and Leia were left clueless), Anakin's grandson was there to slice him in half. And Rey was there to help anchor Kylo/Ben from giving in completely as a Snoke replacement. The end result would be: balance! Not in simplistic terms of numbers, but just in preventing the dark from suffocating the light. That's the key (for my interpretation, at least).

For two years, I've been frustrated with all the slams against Rian Johnson for not understanding Star Wars. All along, the irony for me is that RJ is the one who actually gets it. When he met with George Lucas and Dave Filoni, he actually listened. Plus, I think he already understood this stuff by being a fan growing up. Did he make some choices that George never would've made? No doubt. Was TLJ perfect? Not even close! But I think the spirit of his TLJ narrative was every bit what SW was always supposed to be, and his portrayal of "balance of the Force" was one of his best contributions to the lore.

Whew! To those who hate having to scroll through these absurdly long posts of mine, I sincerely apologize (even though you're not reading the apology). I think this was cathartic enough for me, and now my TROS-induced SW apathy will keep this from happening again. Gonna miss this thread, though.

Great read ajp, thanks for posting.

I 100% agree that "balance of the Force" does NOT mean equal distribution of power between Jedi and Sith, or Light and Dark Side Users. For years I've seen people post things to the effect of "Anakin brought balance to the Force in the PT by helping Palpatine reduce the number of Jedi to be the same as that of the Sith (two)" when ROTS Obi-Wan openly clarified the Prophecy as to mean "destroying the Sith" not joining them. Lucas himself has said that Balance was restored when Anakin basically took out both Palps and himself in one fell swoop.

The Annotated Screenplays discuss how Luke had to learn to properly use both the Light and the Dark Sides of the Force which Yoda doesn't really get into too much in the film but essentially the idea was that you can use the Dark Side of the Force if you're calm and it's not from a place of anger or hatred. The old West End Games SW RPG would have said that Luke "gained a Dark Side point" (and if you get too many points you turn to the Dark Side and become an NPC) when he choked Jabba's guards but I don't believe that he was using the Force "incorrectly" for a Jedi in that scene. He was calm, deliberately doing it for the benefit of someone else (Han) and had it under control well enough that once his way was no longer blocked he relented.

That's a proper Jedi IMO. One who knows how to use the Force with proper Balance.

An interesting thing occurred to me with regard to the Prophecy and Yoda's teachings to Luke in both ESB and TLJ about keeping your mind on the here and now and what's going on around you instead of being focused on the "horizon." His final teaching to Luke is when he tells him to use his failures to teach others. And what's cool about that is that Yoda is doing just that! Because the PT Jedi were so consumed with keeping Anakin around solely for the sake of what he'll do in the future (ie "the Prophecy") that they were completely oblivious to what he was turning into before their very eyes.

In ESB when he chastises Luke for doing the same it comes across as a deficiency possibly unique to Luke. But then comes the PT where we learn that the Jedi did the same thing and later TLJ where Yoda says to use those failures to train others. And what's great is that each time a student "fails" in the same way their master did the master helps that failure to have *much* shorter results. Yoda failed to see the evil growing in Anakin and it plunged the galaxy into 20 years of darkness. Luke then failed to see the evil growing in Ben Solo but with Yoda's help that darkness only lasted a few years.

Then we have Luke giving in to fear and going to Ahch-To for years but when Rey again follows in the failure of her master he, just like Yoda, helps to set her straight so that *her* exile is maybe just minutes or hours. So at no point does some "hero" come along and get everything perfectly so that no mistakes are made and everything is happily ever after. But there is a cycle of each generation Yoda -> Luke -> Rey helping their pupil's mistakes to be smaller than their own so that trajectory does appear to be one that will eventually end up with lasting sustainable peace and harmony in the galaxy.

 

[Khev]

Great read thanks for posting AJP. Our views on 'balance' differ somewhat but yours is an interesting take.

I think for me the prophecy was more about resetting everything. My most simplistic view of it is that both the Sith and the Jedi had to be wiped off the board to achieve balance and something purer had to take its place, both were corrupt but in different ways.

The Sith were only interested in the Dark Side; fear, anger, suffering but I would also add in their chaos, destruction and death they sought to corrupt the force itself and use it for evil.

The Jedi (as presented in the PT) were once the guardians of the light but they had lost their way, become complacent. Seemed more focused on maintaining their influence, dogma and their elitist status in their ivory towers. I mean just look at the positioning of the elegant but elephantine Jedi Temple - the Council held their meetings in a room literally in the clouds looking down on the citizens, equal in stature to the senate. They meddled in politics rather than help the people directly as seen in the opening scenes in TPM (which surely should be their calling as conduits of the light side of the force). I mean they snatch babies and children from their parents, taught that attachment and love for others was a negative. By the end of the PT the Jedi had been reduced to warriors and soldiers and in the case of Mace his group going to 'arrest' Palpatine, executioners. A far cry from what I imagine a Jedi should be and definitely an usual presentation of the 'good' guys.

We even saw throughout the OT that Obi-wan constantly manipulated and lied to Luke to try and get him to kill Vader. It was the only way the Obi-wan could perceive that victory could be achieved and selfishly would rectify his own 'failure' on Mustafar. There was no thought to a different path (something something absolutes), Luke was a pawn to him. Even Yoda with his wisdom sought (with Obi-wan's encouragement) to groom Luke to become a weapon against the empire. He even discouraged him from leaving to save the ones he loved because Yoda thought that he wasn't strong enough yet to kill Vader. Yoda was initially reticence to train Luke because he was 'too old' and in my opinion that was not born out of worry that this would lessen his ability to use the force or pick up the training but likely only because a young mind is an impressionable one which can be controlled not like Luke.

Ultimately Anakin brought about the end of the Jedi first in the PT and then in the OT he destroyed the Sith (killing Palpatine and in the process himself). The old ways were gone and we know (with the benefit of the PT) that whilst Luke may have been a Jedi Knight in name he did not emulate the Jedi of the PT era.

I know that a case can be made that Obi-Wan and Yoda were manipulative jerks trying to Force Luke to kill his own father but I personally don't believe that to be true. For one if Vader's death was the endgame all along why did Ben let Vader win on the Death Star? I mean if he's gonna end up a ghost when he dies no matter what at least try taking Vader down and either survive or at worst kill Vader and then become a ghost when you're finally taken down by a blast from a Stormtrooper, lol.

But Ben never carried himself as if he was actually trying to kill Vader at any point during their duel. None of his dialogue is of the "this is it, you're gonna die" variety and were instead in reference to what would happen if he himself died. When Yoda said "he is too old" in reference to Luke I don't believe that Yoda actually believed that (what the hell other option was there if not Luke, lol). I just think that Yoda and Ben liked to practice a little reverse psychology in order to give *Luke* the opportunity to stand up for himself and take responsibility for his own training.

It can be seen as manipulative if you want I suppose but I think it was more about letting the student come to their own realizations instead of just blindly going through the motions of whatever their masters tell them to do.

 

[e30ernest]

Great read ajp, thanks for posting.

I 100% agree that "balance of the Force" does NOT mean equal distribution of power between Jedi and Sith, or Light and Dark Side Users. For years I've seen people post things to the effect of "Anakin brought balance to the Force in the PT by helping Palpatine reduce the number of Jedi to be the same as that of the Sith (two)" when ROTS Obi-Wan openly clarified the Prophecy as to mean "destroying the Sith" not joining them. Lucas himself has said that Balance was restored when Anakin basically took out both Palps and himself in one fell swoop.

The Annotated Screenplays discuss how Luke had to learn to properly use both the Light and the Dark Sides of the Force which Yoda doesn't really get into too much in the film but essentially the idea was that you can use the Dark Side of the Force if you're calm and it's not from a place of anger or hatred. The old West End Games SW RPG would have said that Luke "gained a Dark Side point" (and if you get too many points you turn to the Dark Side and become an NPC) when he choked Jabba's guards but I don't believe that he was using the Force "incorrectly" for a Jedi in that scene. He was calm, deliberately doing it for the benefit of someone else (Han) and had it under control well enough that once his way was no longer blocked he relented.

That's a proper Jedi IMO. One who knows how to use the Force with proper Balance.

An interesting thing occurred to me with regard to the Prophecy and Yoda's teachings to Luke in both ESB and TLJ about keeping your mind on the here and now and what's going on around you instead of being focused on the "horizon." His final teaching to Luke is when he tells him to use his failures to teach others. And what's cool about that is that Yoda is doing just that! Because the PT Jedi were so consumed with keeping Anakin around solely for the sake of what he'll do in the future (ie "the Prophecy") that they were completely oblivious to what he was turning into before their very eyes.

In ESB when he chastises Luke for doing the same it comes across as a deficiency possibly unique to Luke. But then comes the PT where we learn that the Jedi did the same thing and later TLJ where Yoda says to use those failures to train others. And what's great is that each time a student "fails" in the same way their master did the master helps that failure to have *much* shorter results. Yoda failed to see the evil growing in Anakin and it plunged the galaxy into 20 years of darkness. Luke then failed to see the evil growing in Ben Solo but with Yoda's help that darkness only lasted a few years.

Then we have Luke giving in to fear and going to Ahch-To for years but when Rey again follows in the failure of her master he, just like Yoda, helps to set her straight so that *her* exile is maybe just minutes or hours. So at no point does some "hero" come along and get everything perfectly so that no mistakes are made and everything is happily ever after. But there is a cycle of each generation Yoda -> Luke -> Rey helping their pupil's mistakes to be smaller than their own so that trajectory does appear to be one that will eventually end up with lasting sustainable peace and harmony in the galaxy.

Interesting take on the cycles of master > apprentice. Imagine how big the mistakes were from Yoda's master!

I too never thought of the "balance" in the force as an absence of darkness. Rather, I always thought of it as an equilibrium of sorts (requiring both sides) just as AJ posted.

 

[Khev]

Interesting take on the cycles of master > apprentice. Imagine how big the mistakes were from Yoda's master!

Lol! Fortunately the climate that Yoda's master would have operated in 800-900 years prior to the "Dark Times" would have been much more forgiving of such mistakes.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Great read ajp, thanks for posting.

Thanks a lot, Khev. The rewarding part is the follow-up posts from Bravomite and yourself where both of you make lots of great points and provide plenty of food for thought.

I 100% agree that "balance of the Force" does NOT mean equal distribution of power between Jedi and Sith, or Light and Dark Side Users. For years I've seen people post things to the effect of "Anakin brought balance to the Force in the PT by helping Palpatine reduce the number of Jedi to be the same as that of the Sith (two)" when ROTS Obi-Wan openly clarified the Prophecy as to mean "destroying the Sith" not joining them. Lucas himself has said that Balance was restored when Anakin basically took out both Palps and himself in one fell swoop.

Perfectly stated. As I pointed out in my reply to Bravomite, Anakin could've fulfilled that prophecy in the chancellor's office. It was a potential tipping-point decision he was faced with, and in more ways than one.

And, again, it's part of how I perceive the role of free will in SW, and why I hate the idea of the microbiotic "Whills" so much. The Force empowers someone to fulfill a certain destiny, but the choices are their own. That destiny can be fulfilled at point A to maximum effect, or at point B to diminished effect, or even not at all. I don't think Anakin needed to fall to the dark side to bring balance, but once he did fall, others were empowered to either keep him anchored to the light or to fulfill his destiny. I hate the idea of Force-users as mere puppets of the "Whills."

Bravomite's point about the Jedi needing to be rebooted is something that I hadn't considered as being part of Anakin's destiny, but I don't object to the idea. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I wouldn't include it as part of fulfilling the prophecy because I agree with you about ending the Sith being the singular focus of it. But I think it's intriguing in terms of restoring true balance in a more general sense. The Jedi had lost their way and were no longer capable of properly guarding and strengthening the light side of the Force. Palpatine and the dark side had a lot to do with that, I grant, but the Jedi were already on a bad trajectory.

The Annotated Screenplays discuss how Luke had to learn to properly use both the Light and the Dark Sides of the Force which Yoda doesn't really get into too much in the film but essentially the idea was that you can use the Dark Side of the Force if you're calm and it's not from a place of anger or hatred. The old West End Games SW RPG would have said that Luke "gained a Dark Side point" (and if you get too many points you turn to the Dark Side and become an NPC) when he choked Jabba's guards but I don't believe that he was using the Force "incorrectly" for a Jedi in that scene. He was calm, deliberately doing it for the benefit of someone else (Han) and had it under control well enough that once his way was no longer blocked he relented.

That's a proper Jedi IMO. One who knows how to use the Force with proper Balance.

Mace Windu is an example of that. It was established (offscreen) that he draws from both the light side *and* dark side. But he's able to keep it in check. Tapping into the dark side for brief bursts would be different than giving in to it completely. I think Luke drew strength and energy from the dark side to overwhelm Vader at the end of ROTJ. Stopping himself from letting that power consume him was what saved him.

An interesting thing occurred to me with regard to the Prophecy and Yoda's teachings to Luke in both ESB and TLJ about keeping your mind on the here and now and what's going on around you instead of being focused on the "horizon." His final teaching to Luke is when he tells him to use his failures to teach others. And what's cool about that is that Yoda is doing just that! Because the PT Jedi were so consumed with keeping Anakin around solely for the sake of what he'll do in the future (ie "the Prophecy") that they were completely oblivious to what he was turning into before their very eyes.

Yep. In telling Luke that learning from failure can be the best way to teach others, Yoda was basically saying "Trust me, I'm speaking from experience here, kid."

In ESB when he chastises Luke for doing the same it comes across as a deficiency possibly unique to Luke. But then comes the PT where we learn that the Jedi did the same thing and later TLJ where Yoda says to use those failures to train others. And what's great is that each time a student "fails" in the same way their master did the master helps that failure to have *much* shorter results. Yoda failed to see the evil growing in Anakin and it plunged the galaxy into 20 years of darkness. Luke then failed to see the evil growing in Ben Solo but with Yoda's help that darkness only lasted a few years.

So glad you brought this up! One of the things (among many) that I love about TLJ is that Luke had clearly failed by way of what we learned in TFA, but the *very next movie* had Luke emerge from his exile to confront his fallen pupil. When Kenobi did that in ANH, it had been 20 years, and he only did it by accident (his intention was to go to Alderaan, not to Vader). And Yoda only did it with Dooku because he happened to be in the same place at the same time; pure chance.

Luke actually found a way to take the initiative and confront his failure without needing luck, chance, or accident to bring that about. And he did it by using the Force in a way that ensured his fallen pupil would not be able to claim victory, but rather be humbled by his master's command of the *light* side of the Force. Luke did better than Obi-Wan and Yoda. Loved it!

Then we have Luke giving in to fear and going to Ahch-To for years but when Rey again follows in the failure of her master he, just like Yoda, helps to set her straight so that *her* exile is maybe just minutes or hours. So at no point does some "hero" come along and get everything perfectly so that no mistakes are made and everything is happily ever after. But there is a cycle of each generation Yoda -> Luke -> Rey helping their pupil's mistakes to be smaller than their own so that trajectory does appear to be one that will eventually end up with lasting sustainable peace and harmony in the galaxy.

You had to sneak in a TROS reference, didn't you? I'll let it slide. In all seriousness, though, you make a good point which I hadn't thought of. What you're saying is true about Yoda->Luke->Rey.

Great stuff all around, Khev!

 

[ajp4mgs]

I know that a case can be made that Obi-Wan and Yoda were manipulative jerks trying to Force Luke to kill his own father but I personally don't believe that to be true. For one if Vader's death was the endgame all along why did Ben let Vader win on the Death Star? I mean if he's gonna end up a ghost when he dies no matter what at least try taking Vader down and either survive or at worst kill Vader and then become a ghost when you're finally taken down by a blast from a Stormtrooper, lol.

But Ben never carried himself as if he was actually trying to kill Vader at any point during their duel. None of his dialogue is of the "this is it, you're gonna die" variety and were instead in reference to what would happen if he himself died. When Yoda said "he is too old" in reference to Luke I don't believe that Yoda actually believed that (what the hell other option was there if not Luke, lol). I just think that Yoda and Ben liked to practice a little reverse psychology in order to give *Luke* the opportunity to stand up for himself and take responsibility for his own training.

It can be seen as manipulative if you want I suppose but I think it was more about letting the student come to their own realizations instead of just blindly going through the motions of whatever their masters tell them to do.

There's something else I'd like to add to that line of thought. Being "manipulative" with Luke about what his mission needed to be in terms of Vader might've been the *only* way to get a redeemed Anakin.

If Luke was told something like "there's still good in your father, and you can get him to join you" then Luke could easily become too reliant on that and not have his guard up enough to withstand a draw to the dark side. Palpatine would've manipulated Luke with greater ease if there was any shred of certainty (or even a safety net) in Luke's mind. Instead Luke was very much on high alert, and defenses up to a stronger level.

Palpatine lost because of overconfidence. Yoda and Obi-Wan may have "manipulated" Luke so as not to have Luke fall prey to overconfidence of his own with respect to his father helping him take out the Emperor.

 

[Khev]

Boom! SUCH good stuff ajp, bravo!!

But now I have three hours of Zoom meetings so won't be able to respond in more detail until later.

lol

 

[Khev]

And, again, it's part of how I perceive the role of free will in SW, and why I hate the idea of the microbiotic "Whills" so much. The Force empowers someone to fulfill a certain destiny, but the choices are their own. That destiny can be fulfilled at point A to maximum effect, or at point B to diminished effect, or even not at all. I don't think Anakin needed to fall to the dark side to bring balance, but once he did fall, others were empowered to either keep him anchored to the light or to fulfill his destiny. I hate the idea of Force-users as mere puppets of the "Whills."

See I'm in total agreement with you here so with that in mind let me say a couple things. I love the idea of "destiny" in SW since that has been a huge element since ESB. But I also agree that each person's choices are ultimately what decides whether they fulfill their own destiny perfectly, partially, or not at all. I agree that Anakin's perfect destiny would have been to either kill Palpatine the first time he drew his saber on him in Palps' office or when he was down on the floor in front of Mace Windu.

But here's a question for you; what do you think about Mace wanting to strike the killing blow against Palps? Now obviously we couldn't have had the OT if he succeeded but in theory do you think it was "wrong" for Mace to attempt something that he knew full well would have negated the letter of the Prophecy? Do you think whatever level of divine nature that is present within the Force was angry with Mace and punished him for his arrogance? Or is the "Chosen One" label fluid enough that Mace was totally on point for taking it upon himself to fulfill that role? OR....would Anakin's assist in tipping him off to the identity of the Sith Lord and then simply supporting him while he struck down Palps "count" as Anakin still fulfilling his role in the prophecy? None of these things are loaded questions as they are things I've pondered myself from time to time.

Personally I think that if you allow wiggle room for people to control their own fate and have free will to either follow or forsake their destinies to whatever degree then I don't think that the Force itself would have taken issue with Mace doing what can only be called an otherwise good deed in ending the Sith himself. If Anakin had simply obeyed and let Mace do his duty then he could have still been counted as instrumental in taking out the Sith. Then for all he would have known he would have been promoted to Master possibly to the point of being given access to "the things they aren't telling me about the Force," maybe even up to and including Force Healing/resurrection. Prophecy of Balance fulfilled and Anakin himself learns a skill that can one day save Padme if needed.

I get that your animosity toward the ST is so great that this is probably stuff that you'll really only be open to maybe 20 years from now (the way I've finally softened on the PT, lol) but these are things that I find fun to consider so I'm throwing them out there anyway.

Which leads me to one last thought on the matter of "free will that still determines whether you fulfill the prophecy perfectly, partially, or not at all" and that's this: What if Anakin killing Palpatine in ROTS was his "perfect destiny." Because *after* ROTS Palpatine does finally learn how to cheat death and creates his clone contingency on Exegol between the PT and the OT. Anakin finally makes the right choice in the OT but killing Palps at that point only achieves Option B; partial fulfillment of the prophecy. And partial fulfillment allows the Force to provide it's own contingency and that is where someone like a Mace Windu or...Rey comes into play.

And then in TROS Anakin has another opportunity to aid someone blocking Palps' lightning with a lightsaber and this time he encourages the Jedi instead of taking the side of the Sith. He still shares credit like he would have had Mace killed Palps in ROTS, but it's more of an assist due to his prior choices that separated him from fulfilling the Prophecy to the letter. I personally like how that weaves a thread through all three trilogies in a way that I think is consistent with what has come before but I suppose I'm just throwing that out there as food for thought.

Otherwise I'm pretty much in total agreement with everything you've stated over the last few posts *especially* with regard to TLJ Luke's projection being the perfect answer to Kylo (both as a valid tactical maneuver and a teaching tool) and the culmination of all of Yoda's teachings (temporarily shedding his "crude matter", using the Force for defense and not attack, etc.)

 

[ajp4mgs]

But here's a question for you; what do you think about Mace wanting to strike the killing blow against Palps? Now obviously we couldn't have had the OT if he succeeded but in theory do you think it was "wrong" for Mace to attempt something that he knew full well would have negated the letter of the Prophecy?

Mace was one of the most skeptical Jedi when it came to believing that Anakin was "the One" in the prophecy. I think he was also more pragmatic than a Jedi like Qui-Gon (who comes across to me as being more spiritual, and more sanguine). When you take these things into account, Mace was justified in feeling the need to end the Sith threat. Palpatine was in too high of a position of authority, and proved in that scene way too powerful with the Force, to believe that he could ever be "arrested" or ultimately imprisoned.

Lightsaber duels are essentially ceremonial battles to the death. When Palpatine ignited his saber, he was basically accepting those terms. Mace came there to arrest him, but Palps is the one who chose to duel to the death. Live by the sword; die by the sword. So, I see Mace as being justified in the same way that Obi-Wan was with Maul. And Mace wasn't falling for Palpatine's "I'm too weak" crap. He knew better.

Do you think whatever level of divine nature that is present within the Force was angry with Mace and punished him for his arrogance?

Nope. The Force is even imbued (by way of kyber crystals) into a Jedi's lightsaber. Dueling, when necessary, is an honorable form of conflict resolution. Both sides agree to the implied nature of to-the-death consequences. Luke killing skiff guards was more of an affront to Jedi principles than Mace killing Palpatine, and even Luke was justified (IMO).

If you think of the Force as a sentient entity that permeates through all life, then you accept killing as a necessary part of survival anyway. Here's what I mean: curing disease means killing living things (viruses, bacteria, infected cells, etc.). It's part of nature, and necessary for survival. Sith (like Palps) are an infection to the natural order of life; they exist just to destroy. Mace was excising the main source of infection. The galaxy was at war because Palpatine started it, and countless would go on dying if he wasn't stopped.

Or is the "Chosen One" label fluid enough that Mace was totally on point for taking it upon himself to fulfill that role? OR....would Anakin's assist in tipping him off to the identity of the Sith Lord and then simply supporting him while he struck down Palps "count" as Anakin still fulfilling his role in the prophecy? None of these things are loaded questions as they are things I've pondered myself from time to time.

You got it. Anakin was the one to discover the Sith in the Shadows. If Mace killed Palps, it would be Anakin alone who even made that possible. And sparing Anakin from being the one to make the actual kill would allow him to retain more Jedi purity.

Personally I think that if you allow wiggle room for people to control their own fate and have free will to either follow or forsake their destinies to whatever degree then I don't think that the Force itself would have taken issue with Mace doing what can only be called an otherwise good deed in ending the Sith himself. If Anakin had simply obeyed and let Mace do his duty then he could have still been counted as instrumental in taking out the Sith. Then for all he would have known he would have been promoted to Master possibly to the point of being given access to "the things they aren't telling me about the Force," maybe even up to and including Force Healing/resurrection. Prophecy of Balance fulfilled and Anakin himself learns a skill that can one day save Padme if needed.

Agreed. Anakin chose poorly. He identified the hidden Sith. He reported this to his elders. He did everything right, until he let his selfish interests supersede his better destiny.

I get that your animosity toward the ST is so great that this is probably stuff that you'll really only be open to maybe 20 years from now (the way I've finally softened on the PT, lol) but these are things that I find fun to consider so I'm throwing them out there anyway.

At this point, it would just take George Lucas giving even the mildest statement of approval of Palpatine being brought back in TROS. I don't care that Palps was brought back in the EU, because not only is that not a movie, but those stories were before the PT and the idea of the Chosen One. To me, this saga needs to honor and follow George's intent (for better or worse). Whichever writers/directors are given these movies, they should make the stories their own, but never by conflicting with George's narrative.

But my love of TLJ leaves me open to reinstating the ST in my personal head canon. If, let's say, GL's outline gets leaked and shows some connections with TROS that I'm unaware of, that's another pathway. The door is closed, but not locked.

Which leads me to one last thought on the matter of "free will that still determines whether you fulfill the prophecy perfectly, partially, or not at all" and that's this: What if Anakin killing Palpatine in ROTS was his "perfect destiny." Because *after* ROTS Palpatine does finally learn how to cheat death and creates his clone contingency on Exegol between the PT and the OT. Anakin finally makes the right choice in the OT but killing Palps at that point only achieves Option B; partial fulfillment of the prophecy. And partial fulfillment allows the Force to provide it's own contingency and that is where someone like a Mace Windu or...Rey comes into play.

That's exactly what I was saying. Anakin would've arguably fulfilled his destiny by just being the one to discover the phantom menace, and make it possible for the Jedi to stop that menace (who had already started a galactic war). Sure, Anakin could've been the one to deal the fatal blow, but being spared that by a Jedi (Mace) who knew how to use the dark side without being corrupted by it is great too. The setup was perfect.

Vader's turn in ROTJ still got the job done, but only after much more harm. In ROTS, Palpatine had started a galactic war, but by ROTJ he had destroyed the Jedi, enslaved whole worlds, and even had one world blown up entirely. All because Anakin made a selfish decision to disobey Jedi Master Mace.

Anakin's destiny was always up to his own choices. When he slaughtered the Tuskens, Qui-Gon told him not to (all the way from another realm). Anakin didn't listen. Then he didn't listen to Mace. He opened his own doorway to the dark side by making poor choices. To believe that the Force wanted Anakin to become Vader all along, and allow enslavement and slaughter of billions for no constructive purpose, is something I don't accept.

In contrast, his son made the right choice exactly when it mattered most. And *THAT* is the moral of George's saga: the next generation learning from the examples of the previous one. A son learning from the mistakes of the father. Then the father was given a second chance because of it. That's a terrific theme. Luke arguably fulfilled his own destiny perfectly. Anakin, not so much. But Luke helped him get there eventually. It ends up resonating really well for many.

And then in TROS Anakin has another opportunity to aid someone blocking Palps' lightning with a lightsaber and this time he encourages the Jedi instead of taking the side of the Sith. He still shares credit like he would have had Mace killed Palps in ROTS, but it's more of an assist due to his prior choices that separated him from fulfilling the Prophecy to the letter. I personally like how that weaves a thread through all three trilogies in a way that I think is consistent with what has come before but I suppose I'm just throwing that out there as food for thought.

Otherwise I'm pretty much in total agreement with everything you've stated over the last few posts *especially* with regard to TLJ Luke's projection being the perfect answer to Kylo (both as a valid tactical maneuver and a teaching tool) and the culmination of all of Yoda's teachings (temporarily shedding his "crude matter", using the Force for defense and not attack, etc.)

I've loved this discussion. Your insight on all things SW, and especially the interpretation side of things, has my utmost respect and admiration. And agreement or not, an exchange with someone who loves this stuff the way you do is something I gladly take part in.

 

[Khev]

But my love of TLJ leaves me open to reinstating the ST in my personal head canon. If, let's say, GL's outline gets leaked and shows some connections with TROS that I'm unaware of, that's another pathway. The door is closed, but not locked.

Man I'd love to see/hear/read George's ST treatment that he handed to Iger and KK. Hopefully someone, possibly even George himself, leaks a full synopsis down the line. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out that his ST featured Palps' return as well after what he did with Darth Maul.

I've loved this discussion. Your insight on all things SW, and especially the interpretation side of things, has my utmost respect and admiration. And agreement or not, an exchange with someone who loves this stuff the way you do is something I gladly take part in.

Likewise!

 

[Prime Clone]

This discussion is more entertaining than TROS! :

 

[ShadowX81]

Personally I've always found "balancing the forcs" to not literally mean a happy medium between light and dark side; but rather being able to have it fit into your life without having to sacrifice everything to do it.
Starting out with looking at the force as a quasi-sentient energy that keeps the whole universe in balance. The Jedi's philosophy seems to be based on the idea that by removing your emotions and personal will from the equation, you are able to better align yourself with the will of the force, and therefore become a better conduit for it to flow through you.

The Sith on the other hand believe that you can literally bend the Force to your will by harnessing powerful and extreme emotions. However this is a double edged sword, and kind of like trying to put a dog leash on a great white shark. In addition to the obvious psychological damage that comes from a lifetime spent reinforcing the idea that your level of anger is directly correlated with your individual agency; controlling that much power physically degrades you over time.

Of course the Jedi of the PT did take their philosophies to the extreme, shunning all attachment and close relationships; and being too focused on the bigger picture to see the giant conspiracy right in front of them.

And that's why the story of the OT to me isn't just about Luke defeating the Sith; but also about redeeming the idea about what the Jedi are supposed to be. Aligning himself with the force while also having room in his life for family; even when both of his mentor figures were basically telling him that their deaths didn't matter and were irrelevant to his journey as a force user, and the Sith believing that the devotion to that family was a sure sign he was destined to fall.

He ultimatly rejected both extremes and found his own way; and triumphed by following it. He learned that having loved ones that you are willing to sacrifice for does indeed make you more emotionally vunerable, but also makes you stronger.

 

[ironwez20]

This discussion is more entertaining than TROS! :

Anything is better than thst movie

 

[Captain Clown]

More TLJ discussion?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Personally I've always found "balancing the forcs" to not literally mean a happy medium between light and dark side; but rather being able to have it fit into your life without having to sacrifice everything to do it.

Much of the mythology of Star Wars (i.e. the Force) was based on real-world religion/spirituality in general, and Eastern philosophy specifically. George's ideas of what the Force represents, and what "balance" refers to aren't a mystery. You can read it very clearly in his own words. Here's just one example from an LA Times article (Jan. 2002):

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it?s called yin and yang, God and the devil--everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

And this is consistent with what he *always* said about the nature of the Force, dating back decades earlier. And when it comes to the issue of "balance" of the Force, the same article offers an equally clear understanding in George's own words:

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance," Lucas says. "It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful--it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people."

Full article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jan-20-ca-hart20-story.html

In TLJ, the idea of a "yin-yang" nature of balance is clarified, and even bluntly expressed in how the "Prime Jedi" is portrayed at the Ahch-To temple:

George's concept of balance - and Anakin being the Chosen One to restore it - is about the dark side not being allowed to take over. It's really that simple. Palpatine was the latest (and most powerful) Sith who threatened to take the balance of the Force so far out of whack as to destroy the very fabric of natural order. Anakin existed to root out that secret evil and bring an end to it.

Starting out with looking at the force as a quasi-sentient energy that keeps the whole universe in balance. The Jedi's philosophy seems to be based on the idea that by removing your emotions and personal will from the equation, you are able to better align yourself with the will of the force, and therefore become a better conduit for it to flow through you.

I don't think Jedi aim to exist without feelings. That would mean going without love, compassion, or hope; and that makes no sense. Things like possessiveness and attachment are forbidden/discouraged, but not emotion altogether. There are several examples where Jedi clearly demonstrate emotion. Obi-Wan had a genuine regard for Anakin as his brother. And before that, he clearly demonstrated emotional attachment and grief when Qui-Gon was dying in his arms. Anakin cared for Ahsoka in TCW. And even Yoda clearly demonstrated grief and sorrow.

The emotions that are dangerous are fear, anger, hate, etc. But even then, the Jedi just simply preach against letting those emotions become a gateway to the dark side. In the clip below from the Rebels series, Yoda actually acknowledges feeling fear. So it's not about Jedi needing to suppress their feelings, but rather about controlling them so as not to be controlled *by* them.



I also don't think that the Jedi practice or promote removal of personal will. In AOTC, Mace even tells Obi-Wan to have faith that Anakin will choose the right path. In ESB, Luke had a choice to make whether or not to abandon his training to go to Bespin to help his friends, and Yoda clearly contextualized it as a free choice. Yoda framed the decision by warning that the consequences of leaving to help his friends could be worse than letting them die. Luke's personal will was observed and maintained.

The nature of the Force is balance between light and dark. The Jedi exist to use the light in order to keep the dark from creating a destructive imbalance. Free will is part of all of this, and choosing one's path is actually a key to the thematic takeaway of Star Wars.

 

[ShadowX81]

The problem with the "balance" idea is that we have never been given any reason to believe that the Dark Side existing in any capacity is in any way a good thing. The Dark Side has been portrayed as literal poison on the soul that quickly corrupts if given even the slightest foothold in your character. Every dark side user we have ever met has been a homicidal psychopath, with the worst that can be said about the Jedi is that they are a bit distant and unemotional. Clearly if that was the arguement George was trying to make, he failed miserably, as he never made any case as to why complete eradication of the sith is anything besides a great idea, nor why anyone would want to embrace even the smallest bit of the dark side. It's like using meth. There really isnt any room for using it at all if you want to live a good and healthy life.

 

[ajp4mgs]

The problem with the "balance" idea is that we have never been given any reason to believe that the Dark Side existing in any capacity is in any way a good thing. The Dark Side has been portrayed as literal poison on the soul that quickly corrupts if given even the slightest foothold in your character. Every dark side user we have ever met has been a homicidal psychopath, with the worst that can be said about the Jedi is that they are a bit distant and unemotional. Clearly if that was the arguement George was trying to make, he failed miserably, as he never made any case as to why complete eradication of the sith is anything besides a great idea, nor why anyone would want to embrace even the smallest bit of the dark side. It's like using meth. There really isnt any room for using it at all if you want to live a good and healthy life.

I agree with you that it wasn't clearly expressed in George's saga how *both* sides of the Force end up having a role to play in maintaining harmony of natural order. Maybe George just assumed that people would inherently understand it.

But that's why I brought up the scene in TLJ with Luke and Rey a couple pages back. To me, that was the best onscreen demonstration of what George always meant about the balance between both sides of the Force, and how each one needs to exist. I know you hate the movie, but I think that scene added a needed bit of clarification to the whole saga about what "balance" means in terms of the Force.

And I think you're fair in stating that it wasn't made clear why the Sith presented a unique type of darkness and threat to balance, or why it needed special correcting. The movies themselves should've used some exposition along those lines. But we're left with interviews and supplementary material to make sense of it. Thankfully, at least it ultimately does make sense, IMO - when taken in totality.

 

[Khev]

The problem with the "balance" idea is that we have never been given any reason to believe that the Dark Side existing in any capacity is in any way a good thing. The Dark Side has been portrayed as literal poison on the soul that quickly corrupts if given even the slightest foothold in your character. Every dark side user we have ever met has been a homicidal psychopath, with the worst that can be said about the Jedi is that they are a bit distant and unemotional. Clearly if that was the arguement George was trying to make, he failed miserably, as he never made any case as to why complete eradication of the sith is anything besides a great idea, nor why anyone would want to embrace even the smallest bit of the dark side. It's like using meth. There really isnt any room for using it at all if you want to live a good and healthy life.

I see the Dark Side and the Light Side as both being covered by Obi-Wan when training Luke on the Falcon.

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?

Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

This is how I interpret that exchange more specifically:

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force [both Light and Dark] flowing through him.

Luke Skywalker: You mean it [both Light and Dark] controls your actions?

Kenobi: Partially [if you succumb to the Dark Side], but it [both the Light and the Dark] also obeys your commands [if you use them properly.]

I believe that there *is* benefit to using the Dark Side but that it's also like a drug (or maybe the One Ring to keep it in fantasy terms) where you must be *very* careful to both limit your use of it and to use it only when you've "let go of your feelings" so that you have no emotions that the Dark can latch onto and begin to control. Lucas and Kasdan used to say during the ESB story meetings that any form of attack by a Jedi technically utilized the Dark Side while any defense used the Light Side. So in that regard the two sides are neutral and only serve good or evil depending on who is using them. The one important distinction is that you can never "over use" the Light Side and get consumed by it.

Obi-Wan had good reason to warn Anakin against screwing around with levitation (overt physical manipulation = Dark Side) which is why he'd be "very grumpy" if he ever caught Anakin doing it for the sole purpose of impressing a girl. Not only was it an unnecessary risk but it was doubly dangerous because he was using the act as an outpouring of his feelings for her which is made it even worse. So in reality we saw Jedi using the Dark Side quite a bit. It was just that once you make the Dark your default "side" to use to the point where it has become your "path" then it will unavoidably become linked to your feelings, your feelings with then become dark (fear, anger, hatred, etc.,) which will lead to behaviors that indulge those feelings and then the Dark Side will eventually completely consume and control you and ultimately dominate your destiny.

 

[Khev]

In TLJ, the idea of a "yin-yang" nature of balance is clarified, and even bluntly expressed in how the "Prime Jedi" is portrayed at the Ahch-To temple:

I don't know that I've ever seen that full image posted before, thanks for sharing!

 

[Prime Clone]

Wish this scene hadn't been cut. Phasma's cowardice was never acknowledged...