Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

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Prime Clone said:
Ah thanks, somehow missed that detail!
Click to expand...

Ya it was the one leia was holding in her hand when she “whilled” herself into kylo to bring him back to the light. I always wonder why she didnt do this earlier, you know before han died. She could have stopped alot of problems had she turned kylo back to ben in force awakens. She had this power the whole time yet she waited until a whole bunch of people she cared about died before using it

Just another example of how the st ****s on ot characters. Kill the past bury it if you have too in the most disrespectful way possible

Ot leia would have sacrificed herself in a heartbeat for her mission and family. Look how she stood up to vader in a new hope, she would rather die then tell him ****. Not ST leia she had the power to save her son by sacrificing herself but instead she allowed her son to nearly kill the rebellion, her husband and everyone she cared about before she did anything
 
I thought a canon novel explained that Han Solo sold his medal off for drinking money? I guess some 12 part comic will explain how they got it back.

Also, it's 100% evident that Disney and Lucasfilm still very much consider their trilogy canon, especially with the announcement that there's a new special starring Rey.

Has that masked clown on youtube been called out as a fraud for making up stupid rumors yet?
 
Skywalker(OG)Kush said:
Ya it was the one leia was holding in her hand when she ?whilled? herself into kylo to bring him back to the light. I always wonder why she didnt do this earlier, you know before han died. She could have stopped alot of problems had she turned kylo back to ben in force awakens. She had this power the whole time yet she waited until a whole bunch of people she cared about died before using it

Just another example of how the st ****s on ot characters. Kill the past bury it if you have too in the most disrespectful way possible

Ot leia would have sacrificed herself in a heartbeat for her mission and family. Look how she stood up to vader in a new hope, she would rather die then tell him ****. Not ST leia she had the power to save her son by sacrificing herself but instead she allowed her son to nearly kill the rebellion, her husband and everyone she cared about before she did anything
Click to expand...

So I really don't want to stick up for TROS but this whole thing is easily explained. Leia couldn't just save Ben earlier, Ben killing Han was the lynchpin that started Ben down the path of doubt and guilt. It wasn't the magic moment that allowed him to turn to the dark side, it just led to more confusion when nothing "happened." You combine that with Rey healing Ben (and as we learned you pass a bit of yourself onto the person/creature you are healing) and that boy that was buried the whole time came to the surface.

Really it could be argued that all that Leia did was distract Ben and that Rey actually turned him, when she passed a bit of herself through the force to him, while she was healing him. I feel though that Leia's distraction and Rey's healing together pulled him back and allowed him to have his conversation with Han - the version of the conversation that he actually wanted to have originally.

Now obviously you don't have to agree with any of that (I know that when it comes to SW, the hate people have is unreasonable, and therefor will ignore the obvious stuff because it just sucks) but it's all right there. I don't like this movie but I don't find it that hard to put together why the characters would do the things that they do.
 
Shatterer of Dreams said:
So I really don't want to stick up for TROS but this whole thing is easily explained. Leia couldn't just save Ben earlier, Ben killing Han was the lynchpin that started Ben down the path of doubt and guilt. It wasn't the magic moment that allowed him to turn to the dark side, it just led to more confusion when nothing "happened." You combine that with Rey healing Ben (and as we learned you pass a bit of yourself onto the person/creature you are healing) and that boy that was buried the whole time came to the surface.

Really it could be argued that all that Leia did was distract Ben and that Rey actually turned him, when she passed a bit of herself through the force to him, while she was healing him. I feel though that Leia's distraction and Rey's healing together pulled him back and allowed him to have his conversation with Han - the version of the conversation that he actually wanted to have originally.

Now obviously you don't have to agree with any of that (I know that when it comes to SW, the hate people have is unreasonable, and therefor will ignore the obvious stuff because it just sucks) but it's all right there. I don't like this movie but I don't find it that hard to put together why the characters would do the things that they do.
Click to expand...

Rey did nothing to change ben back, she ****ing killed his as while leia was already doing her thing, had she not acted evil In that one moment she woulsnt have killed him while he was obviously defenseless at that point-she grab his saber and stabbed him thru the chest. None of that mattered it was actually kylo that succeded in bringing out reys darkside, it was leia that brought him back to the light. He stiil would have reverted back to ben at that point all rey did was almost **** up leias act of sacrifice by nearly killing him. This is the whole reason rey fled too acto to blow up the ship and hide away like luke- she failed badly by killing a defenseless kylo- she let the darkside consume her. An act of the darkside (Killing a defenseless person in anger and rage) cannot have the effect your suggesting it had, the last words kylo heard in his head were from his loving mother before he was gutted in the chest. It had nothing to do with rey healing him, he was still in a trance from his mother. All she did was fix her really bad mistake

Also there is nothing in any of the st movies that suggest she couldn't have used this power earlier (as kylo was already conflicted even before he killed han) it did not require han dying before it magically kicked in. She could have reached ben during tfa but she was unwilling to sacrifice herself at that point- maybe it was hubris and she thought ben could be turned the easy way. Proof of this power is already in last jedi, she used it partially on kylo when he was going to blow up her ship which is why he couldnt pull the trigger, she just didnt go all the way using it, as it would have required her to die, and she still wasnt willing to do that even after her son killed han and was trying to wipe out the resistance- she should have known at that moment what she had to do.. But she was definitely in his head there no doubt about it.

Nope she didnt realize what she had to do until han, luke, and most of her resistence friends were dead and at the brink of annihilation before using it

Maz even says”leia knows what she must do now to reach her son” as if she had always known that she could do it but just now became the final moment that she accepts her fate, when all was about to be lost. The leia i know from the ot would have done that much earlier-

Not be rude either cause i enjoyed your post but I know that when it comes to SW, the hate people have is unreasonable, and Or st is so bad at times that even when haters try to defend it they misunderstand the scenes they are defending, therefore will ignore the obvious problems and lack of logic or thought out plot continuity in their defense of it. It is all right there, but it is hard to put together why the do what the do because of massive continuity and plot hole problems. Again it makes no sense at all why Leia didnt reach ben earlier, she had the power to do it the whole time. Force powers dont just come and go like that, and hans death definitely wouldnt have been the reason she magically learned it. Now you can have your head cannon thats says somehow all leia did was distract him but rey killing him while he was defenseless with is own lightsaber brought him back to the light- all because she healed him to fix her darkside mistake.. what??? She wouldnt have had to heal him Ifbshe didnt give into the darkside to begin with.

I don't like this movie but I find the head cannon and misreading of scenes of orhers that do like it hard to understand at times.

You see seem to be bluring reys own character arc with bens by connecting the two but they are unrelated in that scene. Leia healed both rey and kylo although with rey it was unintentional bi product. When she strikes down defenseless kylo she says Leia immediately as if leia had reached her too, bit most likely that was thru her connection to ben but it had the unintended consequence of snapping rey out of the sith path she was about to go down. Unlike anakin after killing dooku, she had a moment of pure remorse and clarity thru leia’s presense in ben. If you want to make a good argument you could say leia saved both ben and rey in that moment. Maybe thats why she waited so long for that perfect moment she could save both of them at the same time
 
Skywalker(OG)Kush said:
Rey did nothing to change ben back, she ****ing killed his as while leia was already doing her thing, had she not acted evil In that one moment she woulsnt have killed him while he was obviously defenseless at that point-she grab his saber and stabbed him thru the chest. None of that mattered it was actually kylo that succeded in bringing out reys darkside, it was leia that brought him back to the light. He stiil would have reverted back to ben at that point all rey did was almost **** up leias act of sacrifice by nearly killing him. This is the whole reason rey fled too acto to blow up the ship and hide away like luke- she failed badly by killing a defenseless kylo- she let the darkside consume her. An act of the darkside (Killing a defenseless person in anger and rage) cannot have the effect your suggesting it had, the last words kylo heard in his head were from his loving mother before he was gutted in the chest. It had nothing to do with rey healing him, he was still in a trance from his mother. All she did was fix her really bad mistake

Also there is nothing in any of the st movies that suggest she couldn't have used this power earlier (as kylo was already conflicted even before he killed han) it did not require han dying before it magically kicked in. She could have reached ben during tfa but she was unwilling to sacrifice herself at that point- maybe it was hubris and she thought ben could be turned the easy way. Proof of this power is already in last jedi, she used it partially on kylo when he was going to blow up her ship which is why he couldnt pull the trigger, she just didnt go all the way using it, as it would have required her to die, and she still wasnt willing to do that even after her son killed han and was trying to wipe out the resistance- she should have known at that moment what she had to do.. But she was definitely in his head there no doubt about it.

Nope she didnt realize what she had to do until han, luke, and most of her resistence friends were dead and at the brink of annihilation before using it

Maz even says”leia knows what she must do now to reach her son” as if she had always known that she could do it but just now became the final moment that she accepts her fate, when all was about to be lost. The leia i know from the ot would have done that much earlier-

Not be rude either cause i enjoyed your post but I know that when it comes to SW, the hate people have is unreasonable, and Or st is so bad at times that even when haters try to defend it they misunderstand the scenes they are defending, therefore will ignore the obvious problems and lack of logic or thought out plot continuity in their defense of it. It is all right there, but it is hard to put together why the do what the do because of massive continuity and plot hole problems. Again it makes no sense at all why Leia didnt reach ben earlier, she had the power to do it the whole time. Force powers dont just come and go like that, and hans death definitely wouldnt have been the reason she magically learned it. Now you can have your head cannon thats says somehow all leia did was distract him but rey killing him while he was defenseless with is own lightsaber brought him back to the light- all because she healed him to fix her darkside mistake.. what??? She wouldnt have had to heal him Ifbshe didnt give into the darkside to begin with.

I don't like this movie but I find the head cannon and misreading of scenes of orhers that do like it hard to understand at times.

You see seem to be bluring reys own character arc with bens by connecting the two but they are unrelated in that scene. Leia healed both rey and kylo although with rey it was unintentional bi product. When she strikes down defenseless kylo she says Leia immediately as if leia had reached her too, bit most likely that was thru her connection to ben but it had the unintended consequence of snapping rey out of the sith path she was about to go down. Unlike anakin after killing dooku, she had a moment of pure remorse and clarity thru leia’s presense in ben. If you want to make a good argument you could say leia saved both ben and rey in that moment. Maybe thats why she waited so long for that perfect moment she could save both of them at the same time
Click to expand...



Ive said this before..


It was several steps to get Kylo back to the good side.

Leia reached out to him.. That's all.. He felt her presence and Love. He was already struggling.

Rey Healing him showed him that someone could still forgive him even after all that he did wrong. All the crap he put her through and she still saved his life.

Pretty eye opening I would think.. I dont know anything about passing on a part of yourself when you force heal... If you do I would think that would play a small part.

Now... As for Solo.. His memory was the final piece.. Kylo had to be willing to forgive himself and come back to the light. He had to replay that moment in his head. To come to the realization that his father loved him and that he could forgive himself.



As for Leia could do this act all along... Maybe she could maybe she couldn't.. Maybe Force Ghost Luke taught her how to do it. Maybe she could sense that it was the one time that she could reach out to him and make a change.. Maybe if she did try earlier it would not have made a difference.

Maybe the original ideas was to have Leia bring him back to begin with... After TLJ, and his inability to kill her, I figured that was what was going to happen. But then she died so this is what they came up with.

IMO this is an example of the fun of head canon.. Fill in your own blank and have fun with it. SW has many ifs ands and butts.

I mean.. I have had to ask why Obi Wan just disappeared in the Vader fight for 40+ years :lol

I mean did he just will himself to have a heart attack..

How did Vader survive the Death Star battle? Tie fighters dont have Hyperspace on them.. Was he just lucky? Maybe some imperial Star Destroyers came to inspect what happened. Of course it seems like another battle would have happened over Yavin if that was the case.

How did Luke learn more Force powers.. He seemed surprised to see Ben on Hoth..


I said this soooo many pages back... No everything in SW has too be spelled out.. I prefer when its not. This is not a bash on the PT but they spelled some things out and I didnt like the answers... I would have rather had my own answers and thoughts.. Its what made / makes SW fun.




Its all right there on screen IMO.
 
Skywalker(OG)Kush said:
Rey did nothing to change ben back, she ****ing killed his as while leia was already doing her thing, had she not acted evil In that one moment she woulsnt have killed him while he was obviously defenseless at that point-she grab his saber and stabbed him thru the chest. None of that mattered it was actually kylo that succeded in bringing out reys darkside, it was leia that brought him back to the light. He stiil would have reverted back to ben at that point all rey did was almost **** up leias act of sacrifice by nearly killing him. This is the whole reason rey fled too acto to blow up the ship and hide away like luke- she failed badly by killing a defenseless kylo- she let the darkside consume her. An act of the darkside (Killing a defenseless person in anger and rage) cannot have the effect your suggesting it had, the last words kylo heard in his head were from his loving mother before he was gutted in the chest. It had nothing to do with rey healing him, he was still in a trance from his mother. All she did was fix her really bad mistake

Also there is nothing in any of the st movies that suggest she couldn't have used this power earlier (as kylo was already conflicted even before he killed han) it did not require han dying before it magically kicked in. She could have reached ben during tfa but she was unwilling to sacrifice herself at that point- maybe it was hubris and she thought ben could be turned the easy way. Proof of this power is already in last jedi, she used it partially on kylo when he was going to blow up her ship which is why he couldnt pull the trigger, she just didnt go all the way using it, as it would have required her to die, and she still wasnt willing to do that even after her son killed han and was trying to wipe out the resistance- she should have known at that moment what she had to do.. But she was definitely in his head there no doubt about it.

Nope she didnt realize what she had to do until han, luke, and most of her resistence friends were dead and at the brink of annihilation before using it

Maz even says”leia knows what she must do now to reach her son” as if she had always known that she could do it but just now became the final moment that she accepts her fate, when all was about to be lost. The leia i know from the ot would have done that much earlier-

Not be rude either cause i enjoyed your post but I know that when it comes to SW, the hate people have is unreasonable, and Or st is so bad at times that even when haters try to defend it they misunderstand the scenes they are defending, therefore will ignore the obvious problems and lack of logic or thought out plot continuity in their defense of it. It is all right there, but it is hard to put together why the do what the do because of massive continuity and plot hole problems. Again it makes no sense at all why Leia didnt reach ben earlier, she had the power to do it the whole time. Force powers dont just come and go like that, and hans death definitely wouldnt have been the reason she magically learned it. Now you can have your head cannon thats says somehow all leia did was distract him but rey killing him while he was defenseless with is own lightsaber brought him back to the light- all because she healed him to fix her darkside mistake.. what??? She wouldnt have had to heal him Ifbshe didnt give into the darkside to begin with.

I don't like this movie but I find the head cannon and misreading of scenes of orhers that do like it hard to understand at times.

You see seem to be bluring reys own character arc with bens by connecting the two but they are unrelated in that scene. Leia healed both rey and kylo although with rey it was unintentional bi product. When she strikes down defenseless kylo she says Leia immediately as if leia had reached her too, bit most likely that was thru her connection to ben but it had the unintended consequence of snapping rey out of the sith path she was about to go down. Unlike anakin after killing dooku, she had a moment of pure remorse and clarity thru leia’s presense in ben. If you want to make a good argument you could say leia saved both ben and rey in that moment. Maybe thats why she waited so long for that perfect moment she could save both of them at the same time
Click to expand...

Well see your own argument can be used against your argument. You keep insisting that Leia could have changed ben's mind at any time, assuming that you are speaking with absolute certainty. Here's the thing, you don't know. Maybe she has tried multiple times in the past, when she was much stronger, but Ben wasn't "ready." Maybe (and because the fun thing about the English language is that words have multiple meanings and then strung together specific ways can have even more meanings) the "Leia knows what she must do now" is just a simple acknowledgment that Leia - who by the way was in a much weaker state from the events of the previous movie - knew she had to sacrifice herself to try and bring Ben back one last time. Or maybe it is exactly what you said but all the scenes are there to see it the way I see it - without misunderstanding the movie I was watching because I understand it - or the way you want to see it.

Even though I'm pointing out that you mentioned that I obviously don't understand what I was watching, I'm not offended, I just want to point out that I'm not some uneducated rube that gets confused by fast paced space movies. Yes, there are plot holes (that all movies have), but that doesn't mean that what I saw by stringing together scenes that came before or filling in the blanks with what works for me is somehow a master class in misunderstanding (especially when nothing was explicitly spelled out.) While debates can be fun and stimulating, I think one of the main problems is that people throw out their opinions as facts and we then get into questioning people's intelligence when a differing opinion is stated.

All that said the great things about movies (well, all art in general) is that the movie can be the way that you see it or it could be the way I see it and neither are wrong.
 
Shatterer of Dreams said:
Well see your own argument can be used against your argument. You keep insisting that Leia could have changed ben's mind at any time, assuming that you are speaking with absolute certainty. Here's the thing, you don't know. Maybe she has tried multiple times in the past when she was much stronger, but Ben wasn't "ready." Maybe (and because the fun thing about the English language is that words have multiple meanings and then strung together specific ways can have even more meanings) the "Leia knows what she must do now" is just a simple acknowledgment that Leia - who by the way was in a much weaker state from the events of the previous movie - knew she had to sacrifice herself to try and bring Ben back one last time. Or maybe it is exactly what you said but all the scenes are there to see it the way I see it - without misunderstanding the movie I was watching because I understand it - or the way you want to see it.

Even though I'm pointing out that you mentioned that I obviously don't understand what I was watching, I'm not offended, I just want to point out that I'm not some uneducated rube that gets confused by fast paced space movies. Yes, there are plot holes (that all movies have), but that doesn't mean that what I saw by stringing together scenes that came before or filling in the blanks with what works for me is somehow a master class in misunderstanding (especially when nothing was explicitly spelled out.) While debates can be fun and stimulating, I think one of the main problems is that people throw out their opinions as facts and we then get into questioning people's intelligence when a differing opinion is stated.

All that said the great things about movies (well, all art in general) is that the movie can be the way that you see it or it could be the way I see it and neither are wrong.
Click to expand...


I am im not trying to twist facts or say maybe this is why- i am saying with Certainty because thats what was shown in the movies. Maz line in rise reassures this, if that wasnt the case they would have worded it differently. I am trying to leave out the rise of skywalker book cause people hate when i bring it up but its in there too. She just wasnt ready she didnt think the resistence could survive without her. The movie shows the same **** i dont know how you can interpret it differently, she had already reached ben in tlj- she nearly lost her chance in rise cause she was blown into space by a first order minion. She had the power to do that during the entire st, but st leia chose not to until everyone was dead and the resistence was on the utter brink of destruction.

Those are the facts. For conjectures sake, She may have waited to Use this power in order to save rey too (like i said in my other post) then her actions make more sense. Leia already knew she was a palpatine so its plausible that she could have foreseen something like that happening


In regards to your previous post, im sorry but Rey had nothing to do with kylo?S turn back to ben, in fact the trilogiy went out of its way to show she couldnt save him and like i said he prevailed- she gutted his defenseless ass- in turning her; had leia not been inside him at the moment she probably would have flown to exegol and became the emperors ***** just like Anakin

None of this discounts my original contention that she could have sacrificed herself to turn ben back in tfa, because she had that power all along. That was my original point. There is no need for conjecture such as “maybe she tried earlier and failed”, she just thought he could be saved in other ways at first but mainly as ive said all along, st leia wasnt ready or willing to die At that Point in time to stop all this from happening regardless of her reasoning for doing so. Thats just not something ot leia would have done, there is no doubt in my mind what she would have done had she been presented with the same circumstances as st leia
 
I do enjoy popping in here on occasion and reading the ongoing debate but the mental gymnastics required to convince yourselves that this movie is anything other than a reaction to the blossoming negativity and plunging profits and a hail Mary pass to retroactively fix what TLJ did in order to appease the majority of old school fans that Disney realised were their base is kinda crazy.

As the old saying goes "you can't put lipstick on a pig".
 
Skywalker(OG)Kush said:
I am im not trying to twist facts or say maybe this is why- i am saying with Certainty because thats what was shown in the movies. Maz line in rise reassures this, if that wasnt the case they would have worded it differently. I am trying to leave out the rise of skywalker book cause people hate when i bring it up but its in there too. She just wasnt ready she didnt think the resistence could survive without her. The movie shows the same **** i dont know how you can interpret it differently, she had already reached ben in tlj- she nearly lost her chance in rise cause she was blown into space by a first order minion. She had the power to do that during the entire st, but st leia chose not to until everyone was dead and the resistence was on the utter brink of destruction.

Those are the facts. For conjectures sake, She may have waited to Use this power in order to save rey too (like i said in my other post) then her actions make more sense. Leia already knew she was a palpatine so its plausible that she could have foreseen something like that happening


In regards to your previous post, im sorry but Rey had nothing to do with kylo?S turn back to ben, in fact the trilogiy went out of its way to show she couldnt save him and like i said he prevailed- she gutted his defenseless ass- in turning her; had leia not been inside him at the moment she probably would have flown to exegol and became the emperors ***** just like Anakin

None of this discounts my original contention that she could have sacrificed herself to turn ben back in tfa, because she had that power all along. That was my original point. There is no need for conjecture such as “maybe she tried earlier and failed”, she just thought he could be saved in other ways at first but mainly as ive said all along, st leia wasnt ready or willing to die At that Point in time to stop all this from happening regardless of her reasoning for doing so. Thats just not something ot leia would have done, there is no doubt in my mind what she would have done had she been presented with the same circumstances as st leia
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't go by the books. My understanding is the books contradict quite a bit from the movies themselves, so for me anyways, not reliable sources. Just watching the movie Maz stated "Leia knows what she must do now" and that's it. Not "Leia knows what she must do now; and that is for the first time ever, try to reach Ben through the force and bring him back to the light side." As such taking the line as it is said in the movie is vague enough to be interpreted in different ways - the line is not an absolute, you can't make absolutes out of the vague, though I suppose if your head-cannon is informed by the books which is saying something differently and absolute then cool but I'm going to stick to just the movies. Plus I'm not the only one who sees it the way that I do, as I'm sure you're not the only one who sees it the way that you do. Nothing wrong with that. As such I can't argue that you are wrong or that I am right, just that it could be either.

As for Rey having no hand in Ben's redemption, that is just incorrect. Sure she took his moment of distraction and used it to filet him (yeah, that's pretty dark side, but at the same time, she had lost that battle and was about to be run-through herself and saw her way out alive) but you are correct in that she felt Leia's presence (love and pure light side) which brought back the Rey that we had been following this whole time. She then heals Kylo. According to Rey, the method she uses for force healing involves a transfer of life and force energy from one person to another (that actually is stated in the movie, so that I can state as an absolute.) So between Leia sending out the last of her life force and Rey transferring a bit of herself and the light side of the force into Ben, the conflicted boy beneath the years of rage and confusion came to the surface.

Anyways, with all that said, great conversation.
 
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