Lejuan
Super Freak
Editor of Paris satirical publication known for lampooning religious extremism has said in in the past that he would "rather die on his feet than live on his knees"
Vale Stephane Charbonnier.
Vale Stephane Charbonnier.
R.I.P. Charlie Hebdo
- Thread starter Lejuan
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I have been upset by this all day. My avatar/sig change kind of reflects how I feel.
Let's be honest, Charlie Hebdo ridiculed all religions, but only one religion had followers willing to commit mass murder as a result of feeling insulted.
Vive la laïcité!
Let's be honest, Charlie Hebdo ridiculed all religions, but only one religion had followers willing to commit mass murder as a result of feeling insulted.
Vive la laïcité!
I owe you an apology. I seen you were the last person to reply to this thread and thought you would have posted something different. I'm sorry and I agree with you.
I appreciate that. Despite what many more politically conservative people think, there is a large disaffected segment of the liberal-left that hates the position of the media and political elite on this issue. You see that anger "below the line," to use Guardian-speak, in the comments, seldom above the line expect in long-established journalists like Nick Cohen or Suzanne Moore.
I'm really hoping positive change comes from this atrocity.
Lejuan
Super Freak
I really like your avatar and signature gesture Star Puffs 
YankeesFanboy
Super Freak
We remember.
I've been upset by this too. Like, REALLY upset and disgusted.
That said - there is NOT only one religion that would do this. Extremists to the point of terrorism exist in many different religions. Might I mention all the anti abortion killings in the name of Jesus that we hear about in the states? How about hate crimes against homosexuals? Attacks against Jewish synagogues? And let's not forget history - the Crusades, for example.
I'm not attacking Christians either - the ethnic killings that have happened in Africa in the past few decades were many times religiously motivated. How about that sick Joseph Koby and the Lord's Resistance Army? It's some sort of mix between Christianity and Spiritism, as I recall.
OH - and Hitler was, depending on who you talk to and how nuts he became, Christian leaning toward Athiest (or, at least, some warped form of Christianity where Jesus wasn't Jewish). Of course, he was more ethnically motivated than religiously, but he did persecute Jehovah's Witnesses, for one, in addition to Jews, and they're a purely religious group.
I'm not excusing. Like I said, this has PISSED me off all day. Just saying it's a bit misguided to say that there's only one religion doing it (or that has done it).
People will use any excuse to kill, if they want, unfortunately.
That said - there is NOT only one religion that would do this. Extremists to the point of terrorism exist in many different religions. Might I mention all the anti abortion killings in the name of Jesus that we hear about in the states? How about hate crimes against homosexuals? Attacks against Jewish synagogues? And let's not forget history - the Crusades, for example.
I'm not attacking Christians either - the ethnic killings that have happened in Africa in the past few decades were many times religiously motivated. How about that sick Joseph Koby and the Lord's Resistance Army? It's some sort of mix between Christianity and Spiritism, as I recall.
OH - and Hitler was, depending on who you talk to and how nuts he became, Christian leaning toward Athiest (or, at least, some warped form of Christianity where Jesus wasn't Jewish). Of course, he was more ethnically motivated than religiously, but he did persecute Jehovah's Witnesses, for one, in addition to Jews, and they're a purely religious group.
I'm not excusing. Like I said, this has PISSED me off all day. Just saying it's a bit misguided to say that there's only one religion doing it (or that has done it).
People will use any excuse to kill, if they want, unfortunately.
Lejuan
Super Freak
Have to disagree with you on the main thrust of your comments there capn. The violence being perpetrated by Islamic extremists is several orders of magnitude more barbarous than what any other religious or extremist group is currently engaging in.
The Catholic church was once the religious scourge of decent, civilised society - but this is the 21st century. There is no value in pointing to past crimes in this discussion about the modern era. There are no containing lines to offer sanctuary to innocents either... each and every 'infidel' is a legitimate target for these savages.
The Catholic church was once the religious scourge of decent, civilised society - but this is the 21st century. There is no value in pointing to past crimes in this discussion about the modern era. There are no containing lines to offer sanctuary to innocents either... each and every 'infidel' is a legitimate target for these savages.
I'd imagine the folk being indiscriminately killed in Africa would disagree, Lejuan. Those oppressive groups don't discriminate either. The people being massacred by the thousands by Kony and his army (which is happening NOW) would disagree. I may be a bit cynical, but we don't hear much (in the States, at least) about atrocities performed by non-Muslims. Hatred is good for the news, I think. It's sad to me.
I may have gotten off topic, my point is that there are a lot of Muslim people in the world who are good, honest, kind-hearted people, and there are many, especially in the States, that have a hatred for anything Muslim because of the acts of extremists, and that's just not fair.
You were right to say that these are the actions of a hateful extremist group. Nothing more, nothing less.
(Oh, and I'm not Muslim. I'm against all religion personally, for reasons just like this massacre today. Any religion that condones any killing is wrong in my book.)
I may have gotten off topic, my point is that there are a lot of Muslim people in the world who are good, honest, kind-hearted people, and there are many, especially in the States, that have a hatred for anything Muslim because of the acts of extremists, and that's just not fair.
You were right to say that these are the actions of a hateful extremist group. Nothing more, nothing less.
(Oh, and I'm not Muslim. I'm against all religion personally, for reasons just like this massacre today. Any religion that condones any killing is wrong in my book.)
Lejuan
Super Freak
I know that you are making an admirable effort to distinguish between Islamic extremism and Islam as practised by the hundreds of millions of its peaceful adherents. Nobody but the bigots would disagree that obviously, the vast majority of Muslims are just going about their lives in normal ways. However, to draw similarities between localised spheres of conflict - ie Uganda - and what is being perpetrated globally and across borders is specious. Islam is uniquely placed to recruit Muslims from far and wide into an extremist fold. Islamic law provides the foundations on which several sovereign nations governments are built. Many Islamic traditions - especially those with respect to cultural pollination and assimilation - are a component of even the most liberal of Islamic societies.
Is Islam the enemy? No. Does Islam provide a cultural and religious context in which the the extremist element can fluidly operate and expand? Whether you're talking about a nutjob country like Syria or a peaceful, democratic nation like Indonesia, the answer is yes.
I understand where you are coming from but, to offer some perspective, in forty years of abortion violence in America, eight people have died, fewer than this single attack, an attack made over some provocative cartoons, not what constitutes human life.
Also at what point do the Crusades, which petered out in the 14th century cease being relevant in a debate about contemporary religious violence?
I'm not saying other religions do not have problems with violence, obviously some do, but as Lejuan notes, there is really one with a worldwide pattern of mass, indiscriminate killing of civilians.
I'm not religious either, but I can discern that a man like Kony does not reflect any longstanding or normative interpretation of Christianity. In the case of Islam, not only does such a punishment for insulting Mohammed, including the death penalty, exist in several contemporary Muslim nations, thus showing the currency of such doctrine, but Mohammed himself is reported as having had killed those in Mecca who had mocked him. There is a list of people he had killed available.
The hard reality is I doubt Charlie Hebdo could even be published in any Muslim-majority state, except possibly in real outliers like Albania or Azerbaijan.
This is an uncomfortable subject for this board. I know you as a Star Trek fan like myself, so I hope you can not take my critique of your position personally.
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devilof76
Super Freak
On behalf of Mr. Hebdo: **** your jihad. 
Lejuan
Super Freak
Those satirists had some courage. It would've been easy to buckle under the pressure of death threats. The editor didn't have a wife or kids, but some of the others must have had their own families. Anyone would have excused them had they decided against publishing a piece of satire in light of the death threats they'd been receiving. But they carried on on principle. Armed only with words and drawings and wit, their fight for democratic ideals was exemplary.
**16k**
Super Freak
I grew up with this newspaper. cabu, when I was a kid, used to be on TV in the kids programs and would make caricatures and teach us how to draw. Charlie Hebdo was a very special, very anarchistic weekly and I didn't always agree with them, but today, I mourn freedom of speech which has taken a huge blow in my country.
I know they plan to release an issue, probably next Wednesday, as a testimony against the monsters that did this and they want to make a statement against those who would like to silence us, but other than that, I don't know if they'll have the possibility to go on publishing as only a handful of the crew is left.
We've lost great satirical talents and can't shake off the unease I've been feeling since yesterday.
And I'm also afraid of the repercussions in French society. For the moment being, unity predominates, but in the long run, I'm afraid that many will only remember that not extremists did it but Muslim did! That may well shatter our relatively peaceful coexistence...
I know they plan to release an issue, probably next Wednesday, as a testimony against the monsters that did this and they want to make a statement against those who would like to silence us, but other than that, I don't know if they'll have the possibility to go on publishing as only a handful of the crew is left.
We've lost great satirical talents and can't shake off the unease I've been feeling since yesterday.
And I'm also afraid of the repercussions in French society. For the moment being, unity predominates, but in the long run, I'm afraid that many will only remember that not extremists did it but Muslim did! That may well shatter our relatively peaceful coexistence...
That bit. But I fall more in line with what Lejuan and Starpuffs are saying regarding everything else.
devilof76
Super Freak
I'd say it's a tenuously peaceful coexistence. Since about 2006 (didn't you guys have a problem with cars spontaneously combusting that summer?), I think most honest people would characterize it similarly.
Lejuan
Super Freak
Not only is education important, but Muslim leadership. In the recent Sydney siege that left two hostages dead, the most prominent mosque in the city held vigils for the slain. Muslims were very visible in laying flowers at the site. This must have taken some courage on their part. Unfortunately, moderate muslims can't just sit back and set a quiet example anymore - they must actively reach out to mainstream society so that when these events do happen, it is the extremists who are marginalised, and not the wider Muslim community. Australia is doing a reasonable (not perfect) job of this, which isn't bad for a country with the world's most populous muslim country just across the strait.
France is home to what, 5 million muslims? Hopefully this event will galvanise French society and not rupture it.
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