new TDK Joker sculpt

[CelticPredator]

Well I am ignorant right now...since I have no idea what you're talking about. Shoot me a Pm, and we'll discuss. Cuz i'm confused as hell, and I dont want to ruin this thread.

 

[Ven]

no PMs for me brah, look you're a pretty cool guy. I respect some of the things you do.. you just gotta tone down on the smart guy attitude. all that being side you're still pretty cool to be making movies and stuff.

 

[SovereignStudio]

Hi Mr. SovereignStudio, what do you use for the skin texture like pores, etc? How do you sculp the hair? Do you have online tutorials too? Thanx! Amazing work here.

Sorry, I currently don't have online tutorials. And if some of the comments made about my sculpts are true, maybe I shouldn't bother with any! I don't do skin texture. I know it's the current trend, but I think it's silly. A person's skin texture is barely noticible in real life, unless you're right up in their face, and people want all that crammed into a 2-inch portrait?? It's overkill. There's a point with 1:6 sculpting where too much detail does nothing but clutter the piece and age the portrait beyond where it should be.

I can take direction. I don't like to call useful advice "criticism". to me that term in and of itself is derogotory. CelticP is right; random comments that lend nothing useful are pointless and aren't worth the time they took to type. If you don't like something an artist has done and you know why , great, let me hear it! An artist who turns a deaf ear to anything that makes them better is not an artist.

This seems like a good time to do something I've wanted to do for a long time. I want to gain more understanding about how people view sculpts, what they look for, what turns them off/on, etc. Some of what I'm going to say will sound like I'm ^^^^^ing, I'm not! But after years of hearing comments about not only my own sculpting but that of others as well, I'm at a point where I've really started to anylize all of this and want to know where people are coming from. Now, this is where I REALLY want insight!

First, NO head sculpt is or ever will be 100%. Sculptors are taking a full-size, living human face and shrinking it down to an interpretive, 2-inch lump of lifeless, painted plastic. And at the end of the day you're trying to get everyone (or at least a good majority) to agree that what you've done is a solid representation of your subject. It's tougher than you think. I've seen work I really liked flamed to a crisp, and I've seen work I didn't like that much put on a pedestal like the Holy Grail. It's confusing. And it seems lately the artist needs to factor in how people "feel" about the piece, or how they "remember" it looking. That last one, of course, is impossible to deal with when you're sculpting. I put together a photo collection of some other Joker portraits along with mine I want you guys to look at. Now, I'm just giving my personal opinions on each. I'm not bashing, but I do look at other peoples' work when doing my own and I let my opinions guide what I'm creating. I want your take on it.

The first is Hot Toys version 2 sculpt. Very nice, but wrong. The detail is too heavy and over stated. The paint is highly stylized compared to his look in most of the film, and the eye make-up is completely wrong for any scene in the movie. He also did not look that angry most of the time. The mistakes are few, but obvious. And people really love this sculpt, particularly the paint work of JC Hong. But when compared to the actual photo, the likeness and paint are not that close at all. Still, people love it, so it must be good.
The second is Chris Howes's sculpt. It must be good; a ton of people loved it and bought it and now want Chris to sculpt everything short of his own butt. But if I saw this presented on this board for the first time, I would think, "Yeah, that's never goona fly with this crowd" but it did. And I honestly don't know why. My honest opinion is that most of his sculpts look like modified Ken dolls. Again, when compared to the real thing, not very good to my eye.
Third, there's mine. Perfect? HELL NO! But I think I got just slightly closer than the other two; slightly. The first two are huge favorites, and so far the reaction to mine is very discouraging. It's one of those things that leaves me scrating my head and wondering what I did wrong. I'm sure you guys see the problems with all three. But when I compare all three I really don't see anymore or any less flaws in mine than I see in the others. It seems people are willing to accept or overlook inaccuracy to a point and in certain areas, but where is that point and what are those areas??
I work from a lot of reference photos, but I also look at other sculpts and identify elements I do and don't like and factor that stuff in as I work. Someone said my sculpt looked "blocky". That's something I saw in the HT sculpt. His jaw there is very broad and heavy, people love that sculpt, so I did it as well. I have a really clinical or surgical way of sculpting that I think might be working aganist me. I tend to slice peoples' faces up in my head and sculpt one feature at a time. To be honest, I never really stand back and study my work to see how it's working as a whole; how all those features flow together. I've had had many fans and professional sculptors tell me you have to sometimes exagerate certain key facial features, that if you can get people to instantly recognize a nose or pair of eyes then they instantly recognize the sculpt and regard it as good. I've always rebeled against that notion, which may be wrong to do. I feel that, as with a photograph, when you shrink something down you lose resolution and detail so, if you start exagerating things, you'll inevitably create a caricture. If I don't see something in a photo I'm not adding it, even if I think it will make the piece more dynamic. I also tend to soften and sometimes eliminate certain details based on my shrinkage/resolution theory. Maybe that's the wrong approach in a 3-D piece??
A lot of people call my work "interpretational". ALL sculpts are. Every sculptor has his own distinct style, but yet there is only one real-life example of any actor/subject. We're all rendering the same people, through our individual style. By definition alone, it's interpretation.
I think maybe people have it a bit backwards. I think maybe most of my work is not interpretational enough. By my clinical, often lifeless approach and leaning toward fully static and neutral expressions I think I create alot of sculpts that aren't necessarily bad, but really bland. What does it matter if I got a nose shaped right or eyes positioned and shaped right if the whole thing is dull and boring to look at?
I love sculpting, and I know I'm good. But not as good as I want to be or need to be. And I'm having trouble identifying the fundamental areas I need work. Hopefully I can get some solid advice. So, if have constructive advice, great! If you're just dropping in to be an A-hole, don't waste my time or yours. Sorry, but that's how I feel about that.

 

[Ven]

heh sorry to derail your thread shuan. Its an awesome potrait I do see the resemblence.. but what I noticed about your sculpts is that some features a bit too define.. maybe some parts of the sculpt should be less rough. but looking back on your older sculpts this one has improved alot.

 

[CelticPredator]

So, if have constructive advice, great! If you're just dropping in to be an A-hole, don't waste my time or yours. Sorry, but that's how I feel about that

I agree with this claim. Its not a bad sculpt, i'm not a big fan of it personally. But then again, not one Joker sculpt has captured Heath 100% so....

 

[CelticPredator]

no PMs for me brah, look you're a pretty cool guy. I respect some of the things you do.. you just gotta tone down on the smart guy attitude. all that being side you're still pretty cool to be making movies and stuff.

Alrighty then. You're pretty cool as well, when you're not being a jerkhole.

Kidding.

 

[freestylex06x]

i think it looks pretty sweet, personally, i think making it look like he has more strands and detail in his hair would make it a lot better. awesome job

 

[Ryu]

Not reading any of the comments above (to make sure it's all my own thoughts so sorry if they've already been mentioned) I think your Joker sculpt is good, but the face is a bit too wide (the areas right under the ears). I think you should sand it down some and the eyes look a tad bit too far apart. I also think the forehead should pop out more near the top. I know it's slightly tilted up compared to the movie screen shot, but I can still tell unless it's just my imagination. I think it's just some little things that are throwing your Joker off.

I never really liked that repaint of HT's sculpt. The blue eyes throw it way off for me.

 

[blakus939]

agree, the blue is just all wrong ^
I noticed you were wondering where you went wrong, and what is off about that sculpt. Imo, wide face, mouth, eye structure, wrinkle effect and hair are all off. Its not bad, good representation of the updated joker, not so much Heath at all.
I cant believe however you dont think the JC Hong one is spot on? Its like a little mini Heath lol. You say no one will ever get a sculpt 100percent because of the scale.........i disagree, it CAN be achieved, and boy people have come close. The hot toys version alone is a 90 - 95 percent representation of the real Heath Joker. The paint application etc is a bit off to the movie, and its granted, but hell, look at some comparisons, its near identical to the some faces in the movie, even if only for a second, it truly captures the character, in all his essence. But of course, there is room for improvement on every one, even if only a little, or alot, no one has made a 100percent perfect one..........yet

 

[cerebus23]

ya the howels head looks like the mouth is off to me. and the head shape is just off in general.

your latest one i would say from that angle the faces looks too wide overall like the above poster said, and the eye makeup while it might not be as "runny" in other paint jobs, and those are mostly over emphasized over what was in the film, yours is too linear. tho personally i like the over emphasized "runny" look. one other thing, tho it might be the angle of the pics between yours and the screen cap of ledger is the distance between the nose and mouth is not enough.

you got a good likeness going, and some of the comments are nit picking, but being a drawer, painter digital artist thats been through art school we did, do enough critiquing in school and among my friends, i myself are often harder on my work than others are, so it never bothers me if people offer constructive criticism. once i start on something i am often never happy with it but in a few rare occurences.

also might add that flat 2d pics of a 3d sculpt something is often lost in translation a bit, best thing is to just find the best front side and 3/4 refrences of his face you can and look carefully matching each angle. and use of negative space is often very useful for portrait work when a face shape just looks off somehow.

 

[aussieinnyc]

I had a much longer post written, hit the button and my wireless chose just that moment to cut out and lost the whole thing. Dammit!

Beyond the sculpt there are a couple of things that I don't think are helping - the paint job and actual photos. The photos you generally post of your work have a hazy, almost luminescent quality to them (the Scarecrow ones are an ideal example) which makes the details a little less crisp and harder to appreciate. And while your paint jobs are a helluva lot better than what I've seen many do (and what I could do!), they do seem to lack some of the subtlety and details of some others (your Joker, for example, seems to have hair of one solid colour, the line between eye make-up and white face paint seems too definite, the forehead wrinkles and lip paint perhaps too wide in some areas, etc).

I think your work is really improving with each one that I've seen. I used to find your eyes way too large, but I don't think this is the case on this sculpt. I would question your technique of sculpting individual elements though and not necessarily looking at how the face as a whole flows, since the cheeks will change subtly depending on the position of the mouth, and nose, etc etc. Ultimately I guess you're trying to capture a character, and in order to do that, you need to inject some emotion into your pieces. A completely passive/neutral look will not capture that "essence" of a character, and perhaps it's fine to make some small emphases of certain features if that will capture more of the "feel" of a character.

All of the above, though, is only if you want your work to have a similar sort of "feel" to the other pieces that are currently getting praise heaped upon them. I think I could probably tell any one of your sculpts from other people's work, and that's not necessarily a bad thing - after all, what is popular works in cycles. My honest opinion on the above three sculpts is that the HT one is by far my favourite (the image you posted is a little unfair, since that is a complete repaint that really doesn't reflect what you are purchasing). I think, along with the actual picture quality and paintjob, yours could do with another pass at sculpting the hair and that the jaw appears too wide. The eyes might also be set too far back in the head, or the brow ridge too pronounced, but I'm not sure if that's just the paint/lighting. The cheeks may also be a little too fat (especially around the smile lines).

I hope that this post is taken in the spirit in which it was intended, which was as a response to your request for feedback and opinions. I have nothing but respect for people who are able to accomplish this sort of work, and know it is a lot easier to sit back behind a keyboard and call out all the things you think are wrong than it is to actually get it to such a stage in the first place, and implement everyone's subjective criticisms.

 

[blakus939]

c'mon man, check it out, it freakin nails it, how can you say its wrong. paint application, obviously, yes, especially wrong to this scene, and most probably not movie accurate to any scene, but the sculpt as a whole is flawless. the facial structure is dead on. the figure pictures are of a slightly different angle, also. you could pass the figure pictures off as the real person to an unsuspecting person, imho, although the hair may give it away

 

[SovereignStudio]

c'mon man, check it out, it freakin nails it, how can you say its wrong. paint application, obviously, yes, especially wrong to this scene, and most probably not movie accurate to any scene, but the sculpt as a whole is flawless. the facial structure is dead on. the figure pictures are of a slightly different angle, also. you could pass the figure pictures off as the real person to an unsuspecting person, imho, although the hair may give it away

I didn't say it wasn't good, it's just not 100%. As you said, it looks like a real person. And it's a great overall representation, but not for any one scene. I go more for specific scenes, which in itself might be a mistake. That was my whole point. A sculpt can be off and people will still praise it, so to what degree can a sculpt be off and still be good. Your own words praise it and crticize at the same time. As I said in the lasy post, I'm not trying to bash those sculpts. I'm trying to gain some fundemental understanding of how different people view things.

As for the hair, you're looking at it unpainted. The few pics where it's green, that's a quick digital job. I thought it looked better than the gray clay. The HT sculpt has a bit of "weight" to it also. But it's painted black, then the various colors are layered on which creates the illusion of greater depth. Unpainted, it would probably look a lot like mine except that I chose not to expose his left ear. Maybe people are talking about the left side. As was said, I'm not the best photographer. It looks really thick and full hanging there, but you're mostly looking at a gap between his face and hair. The actual hair sculpt is not that thick in that spot.
Yes, I made his chin and jawline very broad and heavy with a short. I did it because it's an element of the HT sculpt, which people love, so I went that way. That's also why I gave him a pronouned, furrowed brow. I didn't think I still had a copy of it, but this is the original sculpt I did about three months ago, before I went nuts modifying it. I want to widen the nostril area, though and balance it out. His nostrils are a bit crooked.

Also, you'll see he didn't originally have the dramatic upper lip that hangs over the bottom lip like a duck bill. That's what makes his cheeks puff out so far. Again, an element lifted straight from the HT sculpt. Many of the things that seem to make people love the HT sculpt are the same things many think hold mine back. One of the many things I want to understand.

 

[Wanderer]

Ok...first off Shaun continue to create the work you do...I consider you a pioneer amongst the rest of the sculptors here. I honestly cant think of another artist on this board who is prepared to work outside the box. It seems you continually try to push the envelope with each piece you do. The hair swap gimmick is an awesome idea...
With reference to those comparison pics you posted, i have to honestly say HT's sculpt is the closest Ledger Joker likeness. Yes its off, but its accurately proportioned and realistically sculpted to make it head and shoulders above anything else (scowl not withstanding)
C Howes sculpt looks nothing like Heaths Joker, HOWEVER, it does have that (previously mentioned) realistic sculpt which brings it to life.
Please don't take this as criticism, just honest feedback...Heaths likeness is not there in your sculpt PERIOD. What perhaps is also 'detrimental' to it when comparisons are made with the other two sculpts, is that it lacks that real life realistic feel...Perhaps thats why the word 'Interpretation' is always bandied about. I truly think you have your own signature style which sets you apart from your peers and makes you an important asset here. Your style reminds me of CG in games...it looks real to a degree but it has a visual style all its own...
With your skills and art style, perhaps you should let loose and embrace that alternative vibe in your sculpting/figure making...PLAY TO YOUR STRENGTHS!

 

[aussieinnyc]

Not to be argumentative, but the HT upper lip doesn't make his cheeks puff out, rather it reduced the smile lines and puts the lip on the same level as the cheeks. If you look at both the HT and film images Blakus939 posted, the distinction between the bulge of the cheeks and the lip virtually disappears into a smooth surface.

 

[Ryu]

Yes, I made his chin and jawline very broad and heavy with a short. I did it because it's an element of the HT sculpt, which people love, so I went that way.

People love it because that's what Ledger had.

 

[SovereignStudio]

People love it because that's what Ledger had.

Well, yeah... there ya' go so I don't get why it was wrong. Great photo, by the way. I'll need that.

 

[cr0w]

Many of the things that seem to make people love the HT sculpt are the same things many think hold mine back. One of the many things I want to understand.

HT's looks like Ledger's Joker. It has realistic proportions and looks dead-on like the character.

Yours suffers from the same problems the rest of your sculpts do. It has an egghead. The top of the head is noticeably larger than the bottom half, so it looks like a gray alien wearing a Joker mask. Your details are questionable...his forehead looks like a 52-year-old wrestler's after years of cutting himself in the ring. The entire bottom half of the sculpt bunches up like everything else I've seen you do. Keaton, in particular. It's short, stubby, and makes it look like everyone you sculpt just ate a lemon. The revisions you've made have corrected some of the issues regarding the proportions of the head, but honestly, it's still not a good TDK Joker at all.

If you've read Brian Azzarello's Joker graphic novel, I would say you've done a good version of the Joker based on the art in that book. But, as a TDK Joker sculpt, you've fallen far, far from the mark. Defend it all you want, because it's your baby and I know you will, but it looks absolutely nothing like what you intended it to look like.

 

[70thSith]

Hey Mr. SS, I admit I was shocked at your reply (post 43) on my earlier post. But I guess your reply was addressed to everyone who've been giving in their critique, it just so happens to be under my earlier post? Or I think I got misinterpreted or something.

Anyway, the reason why I posted earlier is because I want to get some sculpting tips. I want to learn sculpting particularly the hair and the tools used. I have a block of Sculpey here still shrink wrapped because I don't know what to do with it.

 

[uscmhicks]

everyone works different and some people can love something that someone else hates !.

Thats just the way it is !.
Shaun , I think your work is very unique and I've always liked how you don't try to copy or create something thats similar to other work even if it has had amazing success !.

Keep up the good work !.

So maybe this isn't the best liked joker head by this crowd but I would bet top dollar ( pound ? )no one could beat that indy jacket of yours.