Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

[Darklord Dave]

Re: The Man of Steel

Here's the funny thing Dave, the writers of the show said "No flights, No tights" because it would ruin the reality and make it too campy. Saying that he is a fantasy character so they can introduce Zatanna and have her snap her fingers wiping out memories is completely retarded. It ruins the original idea of the show and makes a lot of what is been considered acceptable because it was rooted in realism as much as possible a wasted amount of investment. The only reason for him to be wearing glasses???? Easy, the Kents knew they need to protect their son, the deep blue of his eyes was in the original tales a giveaway because they didn't look human, they put thick rimmed glasses on him with thick glass not to improve his vision but stop the light from showing off the deep blue in his eyes...it was part of the reasoning to disguise who he was, this is also why he would slouch and comb is hair a certain way to allow him to assimilate as much as possible. You have to remember that its not a Clark and Superman duality but Kal-El at all times playing Clark in a desperate need to fit in amongst the people of Earth. From the get go Smallville ruined pieces of this but even more so when the Kents only half ass stop him from exposing himself and with Clark being so out and about amongst Smallvillites. Clark was typical shown as timid being afraid of being caught, exposed and taken and while the Welling portrayal didn't flush that way it really wasn't thought out well enough IMHO with making a connection with existing Superman mythos it seems like they were content in just rewriting it. The hypnosis idea was what was occurring in the 1970s being emitted from his actual glasses, was dumb then is no less dumb now.

Ah, you see I absolutely hate that interpretation of Clark. That's one of the reasons I was disappointed with SR and All-Star Superman. Clark is the the real personality - and Superman is the act. The Byrne '80s reboot was the perfect way to handle it, IMHO.

It destroys the Love Triangle plain and simple. Lois has no respect for Clark because of his act and this is a tough situation for Clark because he has to keep up the fasade. Lois and Clark shouldn't have a brother/sister relationship IMHO, she gains respect for him over time because Clark never down plays his Journalist roles but he gets to really experience his love as himself.....its a benefit to the fact that Lois loves him not his secret identity.

But the way the comics and SR portray the relationship is that Lois loved Superman first and couldn't give Clark the time of day. It reinforces how shallow she is. I don't think there should be a triangle - it makes Clark a schizophrenic and makes Lois look stupid. She should fall for Clark as himself and recognize that Superman is just a job he goes to. Perhaps I was too influenced by Lois & Clark - but they based the characterizations on the Byrne reboot and I totally bought into that.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Man of Steel

What you have to realize is that Clark is a fascade. No question about it. Clark Kent is the farmboy from Smallville, Kansas. No matter how many fans want it to be so or how many writers want it to be so, Kal-El is from Krypton. He is an Alien. He is NOT Clark Kent. In his mind, the persona is something that was created in order to hide in plain sight. Clark Kent is what he feels he has to be to be considered human. Superman is who he is. Superman is just another name for Kal-El but the way he thinks and feels, act and is....there is no difference. Clark is a cover, pure and simple. No matter what the writers do to him, no matter what the changes are done via film, television or any other media you cannot make him a dual character like Batman, you cannot give him the Clark persona as real and say that Superman is the act. Its not the nature of the creation. He is an alien from a far away planet sent to Earth by this father to save humanity from itself.....that is all he ever was, all he ever is and all he ever will be. The rest is just fancy and sometimes convoluted window dressing.

As for Lois, you are reading the character incorrectly. Her falling in love with Superman isn't about shallowness its about meeting that one person who makes you go against the grain. The one person who effects you in such away that you act uncharacteristically. Lois is tough as nails and never gave Clark the time of day because he wasn't up to her caliber, he wasn't in her same league and she knew it. Superman made her act in a way that was so confusing she actually allowed herself to be smitten. Its about the chemistry there. Clark isn't schizophrenic just that talented of an actor and I think in a way he sees what Lois wants and know to act to opposite to keep his closest ally but also the closest one to reveal him because he fears to further her career she would in an instant at bay.

What you have to understand is Kal-El wants to be Clark and is more comfortable in that zone....he wants Lois to love Clark because that who he WANTS to be......he is constantly dealing with the fact that its not who he is. That is the key to understanding the character....a God who wants to be mortal.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: The Man of Steel

What you have to realize is that Clark is a fascade. No question about it. Clark Kent is the farmboy from Smallville, Kansas. No matter how many fans want it to be so or how many writers want it to be so, Kal-El is from Krypton. He is an Alien. He is NOT Clark Kent. In his mind, the persona is something that was created in order to hide in plain sight. Clark Kent is what he feels he has to be to be considered human. Superman is who he is. Superman is just another name for Kal-El but the way he thinks and feels, act and is....there is no difference. Clark is a cover, pure and simple. No matter what the writers do to him, no matter what the changes are done via film, television or any other media you cannot make him a dual character like Batman, you cannot give him the Clark persona as real and say that Superman is the act. Its not the nature of the creation. He is an alien from a far away planet sent to Earth by this father to save humanity from itself.....that is all he ever was, all he ever is and all he ever will be. The rest is just fancy and sometimes convoluted window dressing.

As for Lois, you are reading the character incorrectly. Her falling in love with Superman isn't about shallowness its about meeting that one person who makes you go against the grain. The one person who effects you in such away that you act uncharacteristically. Lois is tough as nails and never gave Clark the time of day because he wasn't up to her caliber, he wasn't in her same league and she knew it. Superman made her act in a way that was so confusing she actually allowed herself to be smitten. Its about the chemistry there. Clark isn't schizophrenic just that talented of an actor and I think in a way he sees what Lois wants and know to act to opposite to keep his closest ally but also the closest one to reveal him because he fears to further her career she would in an instant at bay.

What you have to understand is Kal-El wants to be Clark and is more comfortable in that zone....he wants Lois to love Clark because that who he WANTS to be......he is constantly dealing with the fact that its not who he is. That is the key to understanding the character....a God who wants to be mortal.

Ah, you're getting at the appeal of the character but missing it completely. Kal-El is a god from another world, but he was brought up with human values, in a human home and with the love of and for humans. No matter where he is from (nature), it is how he was raised that are the greatest influences on his personality (nurture). That's what's appealing about Smallville and the Byrne reboot - they recognize that this is far more logical for this displaced alien to identify with humans rather than to think of himself as Kryptonian who is somehow above and apart from humans. That is why Superman yearns to be human, to fit in better with the people he loves. But this is also why he can't NOT be Superman - his upbringing forces him to realize that because he CAN help, he MUST.

Obviously we have very different views of the character, and your view carried Superman through 50 years of comics and the movie that we all love from the '80s. But I feel that my view is more realistic and makes the character more contemporary and thus more appealing to modern audiences. Obviously Bryan Singer doesn't agree, but the Smallville creators do. And since they've had to sustain the character through 176 hours of story, rather than just 2, they went for the more complex version.

 

[nash]

Re: The Man of Steel

I love superman :chew

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Man of Steel

See I see the nurture role is the reason that he accepts his Legacy not the reason for it. He is a Kryptonian that lives amongst men but its the nurture that makes him want to be human because he wishes that he could just be Clark but its also this nurture that makes him realize that he HAS TO BE Superman, its his higher calling. Its that nurture that stops him from easily ruling the Earth with his powers because he cares for humanity maybe more than the humans do in his universe and that makes him more humane but also more alien than anything....

I think Smallville started out on this path just extending his angst and making the struggle to realize his Legacy that much more capitvating instead of just a blip on his history but they have gone severely left and not brought it to its natural conclusion making the show appear more campy.

I love this character and the films from the 70s and 80s were great but still didn't capture the character as I read it. Nothing has in reality....to me Smallville and SR both didn't take advantages of the source materials already proven and written and just update them but instead felt the self indulgent need to rewrite them for the simple purpose to do so.

 

[OSCORP]

Re: The Man of Steel

I love superman :chew

Yeah same....damn this turned into a nerdfest fast.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Man of Steel

If loving Superman and having some really interesting and engaging conversation about the Man of Steel is nerdy then hand me my glasses.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: The Man of Steel

Yea, people are always saying how complex the Marvel characters are - but Superman and Batman are really the two most ++++ed-up dudes in comics.

 

[Entropy]

Re: The Man of Steel

I think both of you agree that Kal-El wants to be Clark.

This is how I tend to view it.
Superman, a god that wants to be human.
Batman, a human that wants to be a god.
and Spiderman in between with one foot in each of those worlds.

Bruce Wayne is who he is by birth, Batman is really who he is. Superman/Kal-El is again who he is by birth, Clark is who he really is. I think though that Clark's identities are more integrated than Batman's, though the Lois triangle makes it a bit more complex for him. At the end of the day Batman doesn't really care about love and having a relationship.

I think the 'Kill Bill' Clark Kent is Superman's commentary on the human race concept is an interesting take on the character but I prefer the emphasizing of his "humanity" trumping his godliness rather than godliness trumping humanity, nurture vs nature as Dave pointed out.

The struggle between what you want to be and what you are is what makes these characters interesting and so similar, two sides of the same coin.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Re: The Man of Steel

Yea, people are always saying how complex the Marvel characters are - but Superman and Batman are really the two most ++++ed-up dudes in comics.

Hell yea, batman is one messed up dude (which batman begins didn't really show, but that's another thread) and superman is quite the emotional roller coaster.

I can see the points that Kal-El is a god from krypton and clark is the disguise. he is ALWAYS Kal-El, but he puts on clark to assimilate with humans.

BUT, I can also see the points that SUPERMAN is Kal-El, and Clark is the Kent's son from Smallville, Kansas. he is BOTH Kal-El and Clark because he was a kryptonian raised on Earthly values and morals.

As for Lois, you are reading the character incorrectly. Her falling in love with Superman isn't about shallowness its about meeting that one person who makes you go against the grain. The one person who effects you in such away that you act uncharacteristically. Lois is tough as nails and never gave Clark the time of day because he wasn't up to her caliber, he wasn't in her same league and she knew it. Superman made her act in a way that was so confusing she actually allowed herself to be smitten. Its about the chemistry there. Clark isn't schizophrenic just that talented of an actor and I think in a way he sees what Lois wants and know to act to opposite to keep his closest ally but also the closest one to reveal him because he fears to further her career she would in an instant at bay.
What you have to understand is Kal-El wants to be Clark and is more comfortable in that zone....he wants Lois to love Clark because that who he WANTS to be......he is constantly dealing with the fact that its not who he is. That is the key to understanding the character....a God who wants to be mortal.

I can totally agree with that my friend.

 

[rw23]

Re: The Man of Steel

I rather enjoyed this nerdfest! And i'm with ya Nash, I love Superman!

 

[Darth Caedus]

Re: The Man of Steel

I think both of you agree that Kal-El wants to be Clark.

This is how I tend to view it.
Superman, a god that wants to be human.
Batman, a human that wants to be a god.
and Spiderman in between with one foot in each of those worlds.

Bruce Wayne is who he is by birth, Batman is really who he is. Superman/Kal-El is again who he is by birth, Clark is who he really is. I think though that Clark's identities are more integrated than Batman's, though the Lois triangle makes it a bit more complex for him. At the end of the day Batman doesn't really care about love and having a relationship.

I think the 'Kill Bill' Clark Kent is Superman's commentary on the human race concept is an interesting take on the character but I prefer the emphasizing of his "humanity" trumping his godliness rather than godliness trumping humanity, nurture vs nature as Dave pointed out.

The struggle between what you want to be and what you are is what makes these characters interesting and so similar, two sides of the same coin.

Actually for Batman, there is no bruce wayne. The moment his parent's were murdered, be became batman. he, in that instant, because the person who criminals would fear in gotham. If you think about it, he's a little crazy too.

Alright, no more nerdy stuff, I gotta study.

 

[Entropy]

Re: The Man of Steel

Actually for Batman, there is no bruce wayne. The moment his parent's were murdered, be became batman. he, in that instant, because the person who criminals would fear in gotham. If you think about it, he's a little crazy too.

I see the point but still think Bruce needed some experience and thought to become Batman, it was more a gradual process of abandoning Bruce, the frail human parts of himself rather than an instant thing. Losing oneself, or finding oneself, depending on how you look at it, from studying psychology, generally takes a little while.

And Itchi the Killer is my favorite super crazy tormented Batman, though I really like the FU Frank Miller Batman even though it lacks much of the heroic characterization and rubs many the wrong way.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: The Man of Steel

Actually for Batman, there is no bruce wayne. The moment his parent's were murdered, be became batman. he, in that instant, because the person who criminals would fear in gotham. If you think about it, he's a little crazy too.

Alright, no more nerdy stuff, I gotta study.

I think Bruce is more complex than that - Nolan manages to show the evolution. He doesn't have his ephiphany until Rachel tells him that there is no way to solve the problem of crime and corruption in Gotham. That's when he goes on a walkabout spirit quest to find the Bat within. He sacrifices Bruce Wayne for his mission - Bruce as he's been must die so the Bat can live.

Batman must become more than human to accomplish his mission, and Kal-El has a mission BECAUSE he's more than human.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Re: The Man of Steel

Batman must become more than human to accomplish his mission, and Kal-El has a mission BECAUSE he's more than human.

I like that.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Man of Steel

Ahhh....Bring in Batman into this mix.

This is how I read Bats, he has a duality one that is a need but not a desire. Bruce doesn't want to be Bruce, he wants to be Batman at all times. He made that conscious decision early in his life and Batman was the natural means to the end he was looking for. Unfortunately he realizes to keep his resources there and keep his "family" safe he has to assume the role of Bruce Wayne and in order to make it believable he has to be "happy go-lucky" this is a role that many writers neglect. I think he actually loathes the Bruce Wayne identity because he knows its fake and act and in reality a waste of time.

Superman wants passionately to be Clark but cannot simply by birth.

Its not that Batman wants to be a God its that he want to transsend his lot in life due to tragedy. I don't think he wants the divine but he wants to eternally punish crime for what was done to him. Batman's life has been riddled with it I feel making his descent and comfort in the shadows that much easier.

Superman wants to "cure" crime because I think in his mind he feels that if the world is peaceful and safe then he can continue to "be" Clark because there is no need for Superman.

Both have very selfish reasons for doing what they do. Marvel has some really complex characters but DC has in some cases unintentionally made their characters that way as well. Superman and Batman have been mentioned but then you have Diana who deals with the fact she is a Goddess amongst Mortals, Flash deals with the pressures and the effects of Legacy, GL deals with the idea of righteousness....etc, etc...

 

[Entropy]

Re: The Man of Steel

Really good points, especially the punish vs cure crime bit.

I think though that Batman would trade places with Supes in a NY minute, and perhaps Kal-El would trade with Bruce to some extent to live a simple human life without the responsibility of his birthright. The choosing to become a crime fighter vs having the responsibility to be a crime fighter is a very interesting dynamic.

 

[carbo-fation]

Re: The Man of Steel

Batman must become more than human to accomplish his mission, and Kal-El has a mission BECAUSE he's more than human.

Well said, Dave! Quite deep...

 

[lerath666]

Re: The Man of Steel

I like Superman REturn for what it was, a Sequel to the Reeve Movies. But it also is a good one to END that legacy. Move on.

Hell, Routh was good, but I'd like to see Welling in the suit. Smallville FTW.
Yes, the show has it's flaws, but overdoing Lex luther as a tophat wearing, handlebar mustache twirling badguy who's life's dream is to tie up lois and leave her on traintracks has gotten old( which is how they've done him in ALL the movies IMHO). Can we have some supervillans this time pleasre?

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: The Man of Steel

I like Superman REturn for what it was, a Sequel to the Reeve Movies. But it also is a good one to END that legacy. Move on.

Hell, Routh was good, but I'd like to see Welling in the suit. Smallville FTW.
Yes, the show has it's flaws, but overdoing Lex luther as a tophat wearing, handlebar mustache twirling badguy who's life's dream is to tie up lois and leave her on traintracks has gotten old( which is how they've done him in ALL the movies IMHO). Can we have some supervillans this time pleasre?

This would be ideal for me - a big budget "Clark moves to Metropolis and takes on the mantel" movie. They explain why Lex and others don't recognize him without the glasses (and I wouldn't have a problem with a Kryptonian induced world brain wash, makes more sense than a super amnesia kiss). Have Brainiac take on his true form to battle the suited Supes, have Zod take over Lex again but with some Kryptonian tech to help him - could be an awesome movie. Welling would need to buff up again - he's kind of let himself go since the early days.