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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Also, I’m pretty sure the door to Luke’s hut is part of a wing with X-Wing markings.


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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Also, I’m pretty sure the door to Luke’s hut is part of a wing with X-Wing markings.


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You're correct. It says so in the visual dictionary, if I recall correctly.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-x-wing-door-1068848.jpeg


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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Also, I’m pretty sure the door to Luke’s hut is part of a wing with X-Wing markings.


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Yeah, we discussed that a few days ago. Though again, I bet most even repeat viewers/fans didn't notice the door because it was so brief, out of context and over-weathered.

star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-x-wing-door-1068848.jpeg


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1. That's not from the same x-wing that's shown under the water (it has no ID marks next to the red/maroon chevron).
2. That's not from "Luke's T-65 X-wing" (at least as seen throughout the OT - Luke's had five, not four ID marks) as presented there in that pic - though the resolution isn't great.

So much for the "Official" Visual Guide.:lol
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

A lot of this is great, but it really does amount to people filling in a LOT of pretty major blanks with their own creation.



Not clear on what you're saying. Do you mean she's literally standing there with everyone just watching Luke in his face off (knowing full well that Luke's whole plan is simply a distraction to allow them precious minutes to find an escape) but she says and does nothing as those precious 10 minutes or more pass...simply in order for Poe to figure it out?



Interesting. This was what I walked out of my first screening thinking.

And re: dice - even if you accept the quite strange logic of the dice, what about even the choice of them as the prop Luke uses? I mean what do the dice actually mean to Leia - they are never even referenced in passing in the OT. They were a prop master's gag that made it into magazines so fans could have a chuckle - "haha Han has fuzzy dice." As an item, they mean nothing to Leia, even if she vaguely remembers them hanging in the Falcon. Such a STRANGE prop choice for a "let's remember Han" Luke/Leia emotional moment (and also as a reminder of Han to Kylo later.)

Maybe if they were referenced in the ESB "my hands are dirty too" scene, or some other great Leia/Han moment, but they never are.



But he doesn't - neither onscreen, or apparently, offscreen either. Because she doesn't take any steps to act on his plan - he distracts, while the rebels escape.

It's such a weird set-up and yet everyone seems to dance around this. Luke comes there with the intent of distracting Kylo/FO long enough for the rebels to try to escape but he never seems to tell Leia this, and she never seems to act on the "okay, he's distracting, so let's escape" side.



The idea of focusing the whole moment on mother and son would have been really interesting - especially in the context of Han's death - a moment for Carrie to shine. Would have been great to see how Driver and Fisher would have played that.:clap

Alas, that was nowhere to be seen.




This is a criticism of the ST in general though - that you have to read a book or comic in order to fill in the blanks of what was missing or was totally confusing onscreen. You shouldn't have to do that. The books and comics of the OT expanded on the story, they weren't necessary for you to figure out what happened onscreen.



I'm trying to figure out how it works at all in people's minds - I mean without them coming up with quite a bit of their own creation (as interesting as these thoughts are - I love seeing it.) As the movie stands, there just doesn't seem to be enough onscreen to figure out all these fundamental questions, so people are forced to make up really quite major/crucial plot and character points.



But again - if she knows, then why don't we see some hint (no matter how minor) that Luke has a plan and its been communicated, even if it's Luke saying "I have something to tell you..." and cutting out to keep it under wraps from the audience.



So... what the hell was Luke's plan then? What you're suggesting makes his plan look a bit like distracting the guards outside a locked bank vault where hostages are being kept. Like - 'distract all you want, IT'S A LOCKED VAULT, DUDE.':lol

And then not long after Leia's wallowing in pessimism....

Poe: "There's gotta be a way out of this mine. Hell, how did he (Luke) get in here?"
3PO: "But sir, it is possible that a natural unmapped area exists."

Jeez - even 3PO thinks there's a shot. Leia doesn't think of any of this possibility in such a backs-to-the-wall moment? That's not the Leia I know.

I think Luke was there as a distraction, BUT (and your not going to like this one bit) he was not distracting Kylo so Leia OR Poe could find a way out....he was distracting him long enough for the one person who may be able to defeat him arrived....

Rey.


I don’t think Luke felt he was strong enough to defeat Kylo the “right” way.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I picked up a new car in October 2012. Brand new. Two weeks later hurricane sandy hit the eastern seaboard and my garage flooded four feet. Flooded the car. New car with 800miles on it was un-drivable and ruined.

This x-wing, with a lot more miles on it and a lot more deeply submerged in salty water (including a lot of four boob monster urine) has been submerged for days? Months? Years? I don’t care if he raised it up and repainted the thing in mid air it ain’t flying.

Thank you Rian Johnson for your amazing legacy. You are a genius! #poophead


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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Dot #2: Luke wanted to go with Rey after he reconnected with the Force (and with Leia). That's why he hurried to Rey's hut to make sure she hadn't left yet; but seeing her there with Kylo caused him to turn his back on her again (both literally and figuratively).
Dot #3: Yoda later convinces Luke that he should indeed help Rey (and the Resistance).

Thanks, I actually missed Dot #2.

As for Dot #3, I don't think Luke took much convincing. His reaction when Yoda torched the tree suggested he wasn't willing to purge the Jedi Order as much as he made out.

Come to think of it, Luke really *was* a coward, if only because he never followed through with his threats. But no matter what anyone thinks of his portrayal in TLJ, he makes things right at the end.



So much for the "Official" Visual Guide.:lol

Plus only a minority ever read those guides anyway. For instance, how many people know Phasma's armor is fashioned from the salvaged hull of Palpatine's Naboo Starship?
 
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Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

1. That's not from the same x-wing that's shown under the water (it has no ID marks next to the red/maroon chevron).
2. That's not from "Luke's T-65 X-wing" (at least as seen throughout the OT - Luke's had five, not four ID marks) as presented there in that pic - though the resolution isn't great.

I find your two points above to be unpersuasive, since I don't believe Luke would have had spare wings in cargo that were not originally part of his starship. Also, it is plausible that Luke had to cut the wing to fit the doorframe, thereby losing one ID mark.

From what is seen onscreen, I think it is clear that the filmmaker, with two references (the submerged starship and the hut door), was showing that Luke had scuttled his craft, and partially dismantled it. Conclusion? Dude's not going anywhere.

I know that you are disappointed that what was shown onscreen is not as visually striking as what was seen in the artwork for the film, but what was shown was sufficient to convey that Luke had scuttled the craft, meaning that he had no intention of leaving Ahch-To, and no means to do so.

(On a side note: how is everyone pronouncing "Ahch-To"? The way I say it, it sounds like "Botch-toe," but I could be way off base here.)
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I find your two points above to be unpersuasive, since I don't believe Luke would have had spare wings in cargo that were not originally part of his starship. Also, it is plausible that Luke had to cut the wing to fit the doorframe, thereby losing one ID mark.

From what is seen onscreen, I think it is clear that the filmmaker, with two references (the submerged starship and the hut door), was showing that Luke had scuttled his craft, and partially dismantled it. Conclusion? Dude's not going anywhere.

I know that you are disappointed that what was shown onscreen is not as visually striking as what was seen in the artwork for the film, but what was shown was sufficient to convey that Luke had scuttled the craft, meaning that he had no intention of leaving Ahch-To, and no means to do so.

(On a side note: how is everyone pronouncing "Ahch-To"? The way I say it, it sounds like "Botch-toe," but I could be way off base here.)

100% agreed.

I believe it’s pronounced like “octo”. As in 8.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Yeah, we discussed that a few days ago. Though again, I bet most even repeat viewers/fans didn't notice the door because it was so brief, out of context and over-weathered.



1. That's not from the same x-wing that's shown under the water (it has no ID marks next to the red/maroon chevron).
2. That's not from "Luke's T-65 X-wing" (at least as seen throughout the OT - Luke's had five, not four ID marks) as presented there in that pic - though the resolution isn't great.

So much for the "Official" Visual Guide.:lol

It is 100% the Red 5 wing being used for the door. If you watch the movie and freeze frame it when the door is shown you can clearly see the 5 stripes or hash marks. The bottom one has a lot more dirt on it but it is there.

The intent behind the movie is pretty clear, Luke's X-wing is submerged and he used it for parts to make doors and who knows what else on the island. Conclusion the X-wing is toast and he means to stay on the island. There are many more inconsistencies or not clearly explained implications in the OT that easily get overlooked. Why is everyone getting hung up on the X-Wing in TLJ? Don't get me wrong I love that we can have a CIVIL discussion about SW minutiae(especially nowadays with all the negativity) but not sure why this is a thing.:D
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

it is MEANT to be unclear as Khev says (and I love his idea of the returning to the wrecked x-wing after Luke's death in a haunting shot :clap)

Thanks. One last shot of Luke's X-Wing in it's "grave" so to speak not only would have clinched the notion that he *had* to project himself (after the big reveal of course) but would have served as a nice curtain call for arguably the second most iconic ship in all of Star Wars.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I think Luke was there as a distraction, BUT (and your not going to like this one bit) he was not distracting Kylo so Leia OR Poe could find a way out....he was distracting him long enough for the one person who may be able to defeat him arrived....

Rey.


I don’t think Luke felt he was strong enough to defeat Kylo the “right” way.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Agreed. I feel like Luke knew Rey and Chewie were there, and that they'd help the others get off of Crait. I thought that was kind of what the whole "Every word you just said was wrong" part was about. He knows what's happening at that moment.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Agreed with the points above.

Except I think it’s a misreading to say that the act of Luke projecting himself to Crait is what actually caused him to “die”.

I think him climbing back up on the rock, looking at the two suns, and finally vanishing and leaving his cloak behind was a conscious choice, which is backed by Rey saying he left with “peace and purpose”. The act itself, while exhausting, didn’t kill him. As he said to Kylo, he’ll always be with him, just like his father. He sees that he can be more as one with the Force than as a physical being.

Well, I'm assuming by having Kylo tell Rey early on that the effort to project herself would kill her, that the audience was being set up for why Luke later had to die following his Force projection.

We also have Rian Johnson saying the following:

"I don't want to get too explicit, because I like people being able to have their own interpretations, but I think definitely the act of what he does at the end literally just takes everything out of him. That's a huge thing. Also ... he's having his final act be something of myth-making in a way."

The phrase, "literally just takes everything out of him" does more than imply that it's not simply figurative, right? If he has everything "literally" taken out of him, then death could be a logical "literal" consequence.

But, as Johnson says, people having their own personal interpretations is very much in play here, so I understand the differing points of view on this. As for my own view, I prefer to believe that a feat like a Force projection across a galaxy should have the most consequential physical-world ramifications. Otherwise, the SW universe becomes a playground for Force-users to turn into illusionists who never have to confront danger or face actual consequences. The use of a Force projection carries more weight for me if it has terminal ramifications. Luke knowing the ultimate cost, and still going through with it, would be an honorable act of bravery. A realization about perhaps having more influence from another realm (as a Force ghost) can still be some part of his motivation, but without superseding the bravery and sacrifice.

You're coming at it bass-ackwards.

The point is, did Luke have the OPTION of physically following Rey to Crait? This discussion began because people seemed to indicate that the x-wing was wrecked so he had no other option but to do the projection. It's the option part you seem to be overlooking.

I wasn't overlooking it at all. :lol I laid out for you how the logical progression of what transpires on screen goes to show that Luke never had the "option" of following Rey after she left with the Falcon. And if you consider all of the evidence in supplemental materials (although I believe the movie itself offers more than enough), I think it becomes abundantly clear that the X-Wing had been inoperable. The ambiguity of its condition underwater was simply to preserve some surprise value in the Force projection reveal.

The whole Crait sequence has a LOT of confusing/unclear key elements, even to people who enjoyed it, and I get it's "touchy" to delve, but it's important (at least to me) to get to the bottom of what was intended (no ocean parking space pun implied.)

I appreciate that it's important to you. That's why I hope that the responses that you've gotten (not just from me) can convey what was intended. Luke was determined to never again leave Ahch-To. The submerged X-Wing (particularly the clearly-damaged version in the artistic rendering) dates back to early 2013 in planning for The Force Awakens. Rian Johnson inherited the idea and decided to go with it, but he simply modified the underwater visual to be more ambiguous than the concept art in the hopes of maximizing the drama of Luke's Crait appearance.

The intent behind the movie is pretty clear, Luke's X-wing is submerged and he used it for parts to make doors and who knows what else on the island. Conclusion the X-wing is toast and he means to stay on the island.

Yep, that pretty much covers it.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I definitely think that the film spelled out that the act of projecting himself across the galaxy for such a long period of time is what killed Luke. And like ajp4mgs said that then removes any aspect of the projection being a "cheat" (like Stark remotely piloting empty suits of armor from a position of safety) since it means that Luke put himself in danger whether he left the island or not.

At the end when he's climbing back onto the rock I see him as trying to *not* die as he struggles to use every ounce of strength to keep himself in the body before realizing that he's just too drained and accepts his fate.
 
Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRMED

I find alot of the questions posed around this film to be weird.

Its almost like I saw a different film then alot of people.

I came out of it, and people who were upset they didnt get the film they wanted were asking ALoT of questions. Questions I couldn’t help but wonder about. Alot of these questions were never questions for me....it was obvious to me what Rian was saying and what the story and characters were up to.

From the force projections, to Luke’s character, and Leia’s space walk...everyone who seemed outraged to me , didn’t understand the film. Perhaps it was more that they were so flummoxed from the tone of it, their brains shut off. I could see that being an issue if someone went into shock.

But honestly, its not really an ambiguous film that leaves alot to speculation and conjecture IMO. After seeing it a few more times , all the supposed plot holes are easy to explain. Same as in OT.

I think the reaction some folks had was so visceral, they didn’t want to think about anything in the film, they just wanted to keep hammering away at anything that was not immediately and easily explained and digestible for them.

I totally get it.

Its easy to forget that the original SW had MANY similar moments that were debated also, but on a smaller scale, as back then, without internet, it was hard to find folks who would tolerate a 2 hour SW discussions.

The biggest gripe I remember from those days what what exactly happened to Obi Wan, in his duel with Vader? I knew people who steadfastly believe the lightsaber made him vanish, “atomized” if you will. Others felt Obi vanished in a Jedi Trick and would return as a whole being. Most of us knew he sacrificed himself to the force, and somehow was still able to communicate with Luke Telepathically.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Well, I'm assuming by having Kylo tell Rey early on that the effort to project herself would kill her, that the audience was being set up for why Luke later had to die following his Force projection.

We also have Rian Johnson saying the following:



The phrase, "literally just takes everything out of him" does more than imply that it's not simply figurative, right? If he has everything "literally" taken out of him, then death could be a logical "literal" consequence.

But, as Johnson says, people having their own personal interpretations is very much in play here, so I understand the differing points of view on this. As for my own view, I prefer to believe that a feat like a Force projection across a galaxy should have the most consequential physical-world ramifications. Otherwise, the SW universe becomes a playground for Force-users to turn into illusionists who never have to confront danger or face actual consequences. The use of a Force projection carries more weight for me if it has terminal ramifications. Luke knowing the ultimate cost, and still going through with it, would be an honorable act of bravery. A realization about perhaps having more influence from another realm (as a Force ghost) can still be some part of his motivation, but without superseding the bravery and sacrifice.

That was my first thought too, since Kylo stated explicitly that the effort to project herself would kill Rey, which then informs Luke's final scene. After repeated viewings, though, it seemed like more of a conscious choice and the prior warning more of a display of how powerful Luke had become.

However, I can get on board with what you're saying. I agree, the stakes and the heroism are obviously amplified if Luke goes into it knowing ok, this is going to take everything I have.

I rewatched the scene from that viewpoint and now I kind of see it as he knows, after he climbs back up on the rock, it is just an inevitability that he will die, so he then chooses to become one with the Force. Which actually does make the scene much more powerful, especially if you mirror it with Obi-Wan's death scene. He was facing death anyway, he just makes the choice before the inevitable happens.

I forgot that we see Rey and Leia react to all of this BEFORE we see Luke fade away. Almost as if, in that moment staring at the suns, he reaches out to say goodbye.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I find alot of the questions posed around this film to be weird.

Its almost like I saw a different film then alot of people.

I came out of it, and people who were upset they didnt get the film they wanted were asking ALoT of questions. Questions I couldn’t help but wonder about. Alot of these questions were never questions for me....it was obvious to me what Rian was saying and what the story and characters were up to.

From the force projections, to Luke’s character, and Leia’s space walk...everyone who seemed outraged to me , didn’t understand the film. Perhaps it was more that they were so flummoxed from the tone of it, their brains shut off. I could see that being an issue if someone went into shock.

But honestly, its not really an ambiguous film that leaves alot to speculation and conjecture IMO. After seeing it a few more times , all the supposed plot holes are easy to explain. Same as in OT.

I think the reaction some folks had was so visceral, they didn’t want to think about anything in the film, they just wanted to keep hammering away at anything that was not immediately and easily explained and digestible for them.

I totally get it.

Its easy to forget that the original SW had MANY similar moments that were debated also, but on a smaller scale, as back then, without internet, it was hard to find folks who would tolerate a 2 hour SW discussions.

The biggest gripe I remember from those days what what exactly happened to Obi Wan, in his duel with Vader? I knew people who steadfastly believe the lightsaber made him vanish, “atomized” if you will. Others felt Obi vanished in a Jedi Trick and would return as a whole being. Most of us knew he sacrificed himself to the force, and somehow was still able to communicate with Luke Telepathically.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Since the OT set the groundwork and supposed boundaries, the questions or gripes, were not as vocal/emotional as with the sequels. The internet definitely helps with the sharing of those issues, though.

As for Ben, I and I think I can say all of my friends thought it was always assumed that Ben simply transcended into a higher spiritual plane when cut down by Vader. This is the first time that I hear about being "atomized" or vanished to return in physical form. Those are definitely interesting suggestions, though.

As far as TLJ goes, upon initial viewing, I walked out of the theater thinking it was an OK movie but a bad "Star Wars" film, especially as the second act of the trilogy. It was only have additional contemplation that I consider the film a failure. While the visuals were definitely at brilliant Star Wars levels, the story disappointed me on several levels. No gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands for me, though. Simply moving onwards.
 
Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I find alot of the questions posed around this film to be weird.

Its almost like I saw a different film then alot of people.

I came out of it, and people who were upset they didnt get the film they wanted were asking ALoT of questions. Questions I couldn’t help but wonder about. Alot of these questions were never questions for me....it was obvious to me what Rian was saying and what the story and characters were up to.

From the force projections, to Luke’s character, and Leia’s space walk...everyone who seemed outraged to me , didn’t understand the film. Perhaps it was more that they were so flummoxed from the tone of it, their brains shut off. I could see that being an issue if someone went into shock.

But honestly, its not really an ambiguous film that leaves alot to speculation and conjecture IMO. After seeing it a few more times , all the supposed plot holes are easy to explain. Same as in OT.

I think the reaction some folks had was so visceral, they didn’t want to think about anything in the film, they just wanted to keep hammering away at anything that was not immediately and easily explained and digestible for them.

I totally get it.

Its easy to forget that the original SW had MANY similar moments that were debated also, but on a smaller scale, as back then, without internet, it was hard to find folks who would tolerate a 2 hour SW discussions.

The biggest gripe I remember from those days what what exactly happened to Obi Wan, in his duel with Vader? I knew people who steadfastly believe the lightsaber made him vanish, “atomized” if you will. Others felt Obi vanished in a Jedi Trick and would return as a whole being. Most of us knew he sacrificed himself to the force, and somehow was still able to communicate with Luke Telepathically.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Well when you don't care much for a movie, it's easier to go back and want to nitpick every tiny little detail, so I understand that impulse. I mean the Marvel movies are all filled with things like that, and plot holes galore, but people forgive them because they were entertained by the overall film.

And I admit to feeling like something was "off" about the style or tone of TLJ on my first viewing, and feeling like it just didn't flow very well. But I probably just needed time to adjust, and ended up loving the hell out of the movie on subsequent viewings.
 
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