Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM
Who is arguing against the notion that Johnson wanted it to be unclear? I (and others) have been saying all along that a clearly-wrecked X-Wing would destroy the illusion that Luke was on Crait in person. That's why the inoperable condition was conveyed in a far more subtle way (like his hut door being made from part of the ship). But it WAS conveyed. I think you wanted it to be crystal-clear (spelled-out like the broken car/truck you describe); Johnson didn't. Because being as clear as your car/truck scenario would have caused some people to sniff out the projection element sooner.
The context wasn't elusive: Luke was there to stay. He said so; he put the X-Wing underwater; he wanted to go back with Rey after connecting with Leia - presumably because he needed the Falcon; he made a door from the X-Wing (even if you don't want to acknowledge supplemental references). Subtle things? Yes. And why? To hopefully maintain the possibility with some viewers that he lifted the X-Wing out of the water and flew it to Crait. Misdirection of sorts, but enough was demonstrated to make it clear in retrospect that the X-Wing wasn't working.
Okay, we're getting somewhere - it is now settled: it was NOT intended to be clear that the x-wing was inoperable. It was
deliberately made unclear as to whether it could fly or not. So it at least suggests the possibility
that someone could raise it and fly it if needed. Right?
It's an important point because it establishes that Luke had the possible OPTION to choose to raise the x-wing and fly to Criat... or use the force projection. Just trying to to clarify this line of thought one step at a time.
Your "inexperienced force user would die doing it" is nothing more than conjecture on your part to undermine a setup for what plays out later. There's no other reason for Kylo to say that line. It establishes context for what happens later.
I'm confused - what does the line mean to you then? He's specifically inferring that someone else with greater force powers than her is responsible for connecting them. Is he inferring the force has made some kind of a "wrong number" error in connecting them?
And also, confusingly, is what Kylo and Rey passively experience ("force-texting" as some have called it) the same thing as what Luke does? Its especially confusing because neither Rey nor Kylo actually do anything at all to create the experience - it just happens - whereas Luke sits there presumably in deep concentration to create what he does.
And setting up kind of a lover's portal to see and talk for maybe a minute isn't really the same thing as projecting a version of yourself, apparently as a fully-formed entity, across the galaxy, to interact with people up-close and appear 100% as if you're there, for something like 30 minutes.
And Wookiepedia may be user-created, but it's like Wikipedia - edited by people who know the subject matter well, and often by people in official capacities, so is largely relied upon as consensus. So as I said, if that "longer you use force projection, the more the risk of dying" idea that Wookiepedia describes was incorrect, the likes of Leland Chee would correct it eventually. The fan consensus seems to be that's what killed Luke, and it has a pseudo-official stamp of approval by not being corrected for half a year.
But you don't agree?
I'm honestly not that interested in going back and forth to "prove points" (accusing each other of "conjecture" when nothing discussed here is in a legal textbook, its more about fan consensus) - I'm on a fact-finding mission here to see what people understood about TLJ.
So, how many Force abilities in any previous SW movie have been explained with the type of explicit context that you are insisting the Force projection should have had?
Do you know if a Force ghost can be sustained for any length of time (perhaps perpetually), and in any environment? Knowing that (one way or the other) would alter our perception of how/why they only show up every so often in ESB and ROTJ, right? But it wasn't explained, and none of us care!
But again - ghosts are just ghosts. We all understand the time-honored concept of someone dying and returning as a ghost to communicate something to you. The belief is as old as humanity and is deeply felt across all cultures.
Force projection on the other hand is like a Houdini spiritualism trick - a gag. It doesn't reside in the human subconscious the way ghosts do. Do you understand this key difference, because we project these implicit understandings onto things in movies all the time, often helping to "fill in the blanks" of concepts we see (like how life seems like a dream to humans at times, so we "click into" the concept that Neo isn't living in a real world in Matrix.)
Though again, you seem to be constantly avoiding the bizarre additions of Yoda's cane hitting Luke and him summoning lightning/fire to burn a physical object. MASSIVE changes that call into question why a deceased Yoda couldn't have appeared as a force ghost to PHYSICALLY battle Vader/Palps in ROTJ - because Luke WAS indeed about to be killed by Palps, unlike in ESB where it was kind of clear Vader was wanting to inspire Luke to come with him, not to kill him.
None of us knew if there were limits to Force levitation. Or why Luke got physically tired from trying to lift the X-Wing on Dagobah. Would a more prolonged effort have injured or killed him? No one asks . . . because no one cares! It's the Force; it just works because it needs to in order to advance the story.
But Luke DOESN'T DIE from the effort, so it's a non-issue. If Yoda had died lifting the x-wing, then that's a huge deal, right? You keep trying to draw the OT into this - it's a common approach to defending the ST (and was for the PT too) - the "but the OT did it too!" argument - in both fan and mass media circles, but its doomed to fail because the OT had its **** straight when it came to deeply felt mythology and cohesiveness. There are certainly many instances of logic (eg how long it took ATATs to lumber across that Hoth plain), but they don't UNDERMINE the story and they are not KEY PLOT POINTS.
So you would have Luke tell the Resistance what exactly? "Hey guys, I'm not really here, and you're all still screwed if Rey doesn't get to the only crack in this place with the Falcon, so . . ." His "plan" was only a plan in the sense that he had no other option. There were two people there he had a bond with who he could use the Force to keep tabs on: Rey and Leia. Rey on the outside; Leia on the inside.
And, yes, any rescue would be entirely dependent on the Falcon to fly them away. They still needed a ship, right? Otherwise, they'd have to hope to get to safety on foot (not likely). Rey had the ship. Rey had the tracking beacon. She was using it to get to them (what else do you think she was doing on Crait!?). It all depended on her. If she died, they'd be screwed no matter what. Front door not an option. Back door nonexistent. No ship. No other credible option. It was Rey and the Falcon, or nothing.
No one else mattered; they weren't just going to magically conjure up a ship. Poe's idea to try to find a way out would have ended badly without Rey and the Falcon on the other side! Luke would know this. He clearly had a sense for when she cleared them out (that's when he dissolved the illusion). All he could do until then was merely buy time for Rey. That's it. What constructive instructions/info other than "wait for Rey to get here" could Luke have given them? And why? Their fate rested entirely on Rey.
Something like:
Luke (seeming in great physical pain, seeming ill) as he touches her hand, Leia reacts with great surprise: "Yes. I don't have much time, Leia - I have something to tell you..." Leia frowns, we cut out.
Luke heads out to battle, rebels watch, Leia calls to rebels - "Luke has arrived here at enormous risk to his life. He is here to give us the chance to survive. And he has a surprise for the Empire... Rey sought to bring Luke to us, and she succeeded. And in more ways than that - she is out there, now, with the Falcon, and we have to find her. It's our only hope. Poe, let's find a way out of here - there has to be one. 3PO, try to contact Rey. Let's move!"
Emotion-driven prop? The emotional impact is that Han is being remembered somehow, through a relic of his; not that the dice have a special family backstory. Lots of people keep/wear pieces of jewelry, or a watch, from a passed loved one - not because the object itself is tied to specific emotional memories, but because the object was simply connected to a person for whom there was an emotional bond. The Falcon was Han's; the dice were on the Falcon; connection to Han established - that's it.
On screen, we had Luke sneak onto the Falcon when Chewie was busy figuring out if he should switch to eating tofu. Luke holds the dice in a close-up shot. Later, at the end of the movie, Luke projects those dice into Leia's hand (and Kylo sees them afterward too). So . . . establishing shot with Luke shows that the dice were on the Falcon. Payoff shots show that Leia and Kylo recognized them (from their time with Han on the Falcon, no doubt). Remembering Han. Done. Was anyone watching actually confused by the dice, and where the came from, or who's memory they were meant to illicit? Seriously?
Let's just clarify this:
1. The dice are never mentioned in the OT at all, or "called out" visually - even as a brief shot. They are minor set dressing intended as a crew/hardcore fan gag
2. They are never shown as meaning anything to Leia in the context of Han (ie so why on earth would Luke give them Leia then?)
3. Setting the dice up in the same movie you're trying to turn it into a emotion-driven prop in is pointless, especially because the moment doesn't involve Leia at all
4. You're missing the point that the dice are NEVER tied to Han onscreen - ever. If Han always wore dice around his neck as part of his costume/look (as you infer about necklaces etc.) maybe it's different story. It is a PERSONAL item he wore every day. But he doesn't.
Yes, seriously - they are given to Leia as an emotion-driven prop. She's supposed to look at them and get deeply emotional in her memory of Han. And we've NEVER seen Leia react to them before. So - poor choice. Yes pragmatically, the average audience connects them to the Falcon (at least the post-Han TLJ Falcon) and by extension Han because we see Luke take them (like an hour earlier) from the Falcon but no, they have zero EMOTIONAL RESONANCE for Leia because they mean nothing, even if from a practical sense it's been pointed out they are from the Falcon as it exists in TLJ.
It was, in part, a symbollically-driven scene. Luke was projecting a version of himself that would be more familiar to Kylo, and more emotionally-evocative. And symbolically, it was the version of himself who hadn't been brought down by perceived failure, regret, and remorse. I just don't think it's that big of a deal either way. You do; I get it. That's fine.
It's distracting and strange at a time that you want - need - clarity. Your words "more familiar to Kylo" and "more emotionally-evocative" confirm exactly what I said: it was intended to make Kylo even madder-er.
It was a silly, petty idea and looked even sillier visually as he shows up to Leia and she says "I changed my hair" - as the audience is staring at Luke's jet-black hair/beard and processing the wtf moment, that was the most unintentionally funny moment in TLJ.
