Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

[Vault Boy]

Really? That's how you interpret her statement, as an attack on the male fans? And not simply her saying that she has to appeal to more than just the male fanbase now? Again, it's amazing to me how some guys can feel so incredibly threatened by any of this.

Right.





Again. This is my central point.

 

[KBA]

Since when is the "new way" admittedly not including someone based on nothing more than their physical appearance? Seems kind of a regression to me.



I don't think they need to change anything myself as far as Rey goes. I personally think she is a good character.

My point exactly. If we keep pulling on the inclusivity thread the way a lot of people are, the end of the yarn might just be Pit Pat. And no one wants Pit Pat.

 

[Malgus]

Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right.

When you claim you're fighting discrimination and advocating for being more diverse (which of course is admirable) by actively discriminating against people and claiming it's justified, the message gets lost.

You either think discriminating against people by nothing more than their physical appearance is bad, or you don't.

Yeah lets not ever try to right anything. Lets keep everything white male dominated while excluding everyone since including others would discriminate against white men by taking away their over representation in everything. Makes sense.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

Right.

Oh my god. Stop posting the same videos over and over and learn to make your own arguments for yourself.

 

[SilverStar17]

Yes that's a nice sentiment, but I'm not exactly sure how it applies to SW or TLJ, or who exactly is getting discriminated against here.

Not a sentiment, a standard.

And I agree. So I'm not sure why you're actively advocating for the exclusion of "white males" in order to be more diverse and inclusive. By your own admission, nobody is getting discriminated against.

Yeah lets not ever try to right anything. Lets keep everything white male dominated while excluding everyone since including others would discriminate against white men by taking away their over representation in everything. Makes sense.

Since when is excluding someone based on nothing more than their physical appearance "right"? As I mentioned, it seems like sort of a regression to me after Western civilization has come a long way in attempting to overcome this.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

Films are television have been dominated by white male actors since their inception.

The problem is that this in no way accurately reflects the real world.

Therefore active steps need to be occasionally made to fix this. It's not discriminating against men or white actors, to make an attempt to fix this imbalance.

 

[ShadowX81]

Yeah lets not ever try to right anything. Lets keep everything white male dominated while excluding everyone since including others would discriminate against white men by taking away their over representation in everything. Makes sense.

No one is discriminating against them anymore. Let them earn their place as jobs open up.

Yes, it will take years, but no one deserves to have anything "taken away" from them.

Therefore active steps need to be occasionally made to fix this. It's not discriminating against men or white actors, to make an attempt to fix this imbalance.

It is discrimination if you "fix this imbalance" by deliberately excluding them. What you are talking about is evening out quotas not by inclusion of the excluded, but by deliberately excluding in order to make room.

 

[SilverStar17]

Films are television have been dominated by white male actors since their inception.

The problem is that this in no way accurately reflects the real world.

Therefore active steps need to be occasionally made to fix this. It's not discriminating against men or white actors, to make an attempt to fix this imbalance.

So why aren't they getting those roles, aside from their skin color and gender?

Because what you are advocating for isn't equality. In an equal world, choices would be made without regard to race, sex, or anything. What you are advocating for is to actively discriminate against white men to even the playing field. Is it immediately even? No. But if you want this to be a fair world it does need time to happen naturally. Let people leave positions and then when those jobs open up, the choice for a replacement can happen regardless of race or gender.

Any push for that to happen that involves discrimination is just as bad as what you are claiming to fight against.

Look at the BBC. Forget about the whole Doctor Who thing. In the past couple years they have been actively firing white men in various positions that were doing just fine at their job just so they can even out diversity quotas.

No one is discriminating against them anymore. Let them earn their place as jobs open up.

Yes, it will take years, but no one deserves to have anything "taken away" from them.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

No one is discriminating against them anymore. Let them earn their place as jobs open up.

Yes, it will take years, but no one deserves to have anything "taken away" from them.

"Taken away."

Once again, this implies that these roles belong to white men by default.

 

[davejames]

Because what you are advocating for isn't equality. In an equal world, choices would be made without regard to race, sex, or anything. What you are advocating for is to actively discriminate against white men to even the playing field. Is it immediately even? No. But if you want this to be a fair world it does need time to happen naturally. Let people leave positions and then when those jobs open up, the choice for a replacement can happen regardless of race or gender.

Yes in an ideal world, other races and genders would be given equal opportunity and those things would never be a factor in decision making. But that is not the world we live in and it seems ridiculously naive to think it is. Or to expect those other groups to simply wait around patiently for the white establishment to slowly let them in. When there have been numerous studies to show how that is not what they naturally want to do.

And it's also kinda hilarious that white people are suddenly very concerned about discrimination and racism against us when we haven't had to suffer 1/10 of what these other groups have over the years, or been held back to nearly the same degree.

 

[SilverStar17]

"Taken away."

Once again, this implies that these roles belong to white men by default.

Who do they belong to? I agree they don't belong to "white men", but I'm a strong advocate that nobody deserves to have something taken away from them simply because of their physical appearance.

 

[SilverStar17]

Yes in an ideal world, other races and genders would be given equal opportunity and those things would never be a factor in decision making. But that is not the world we live in and its seems ridiculously naive to think it is. Or to expect those other groups to simply wait around patiently for the white establishment to slowly let them in. When there have been numerous studies to show how that is not what they naturally want to do.

And it's also kinda hilarious that white people are suddenly very concerned about discrimination and racism against us when we haven't had to suffer 1/10 of what these other groups have over the years, or been held back to nearly the same degree.

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. You're essentially advocating force rather than choice, because you don't have time to wait for what you call "equality".

You by your own admission stated that nobody is being discriminated against. Yet, you're openly advocating for the discrimation of "white people" in order to not be racist and discriminatory.

 

[Spark Extractor]

I concur, and that includes women, as you label them. So you would have been fine if Rey was a "white male" then, as you label them, but still a good character?

You need to stop trying to do the tagging me with 'labeling' or 'putting people in groups/boxes' thing. It doesn't work because it's not true.

Because what you are advocating for isn't equality. In an equal world, choices would be made without regard to race, sex, or anything. What you are advocating for is to actively discriminate against white men to even the playing field. Is it immediately even? No. But if you want this to be a fair world it does need time to happen naturally. Let people leave positions and then when those jobs open up, the choice for a replacement can happen regardless of race or gender.

Any push for that to happen that involves discrimination is just as bad as what you are claiming to fight against.

Look at the BBC. Forget about the whole Doctor Who thing. In the past couple years they have been actively firing white men in various positions that were doing just fine at their job just so they can even out diversity quotas.

I get that you fancy yourself an anarchist/libertarian type, but there is no 'Natural' state to humanity. That's the great part of humanity. We get to create our own circumstances.

No one is discriminating against them anymore. Let them earn their place as jobs open up.

Yes, it will take years, but no one deserves to have anything "taken away" from them.

If you believe there isn't discrimination and bias anymore, you are living in a fantasy land. If a field is dominated by one group and continually perpetuates itself then those openings will not be filled by other groups. That's the 'natural way that has been going on for a long time. We can choose a different way and create a new natural way. Eventually that will perpetuate itself as well and all groups can be 'naturally' represented.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Don't mean to interrupt, jumping in quickly to say:

This thread would be better with a poll.



Carry on...

 

[SilverStar17]

You need to stop trying to do the tagging me with 'labeling' or 'putting people in groups/boxes' thing. It doesn't work because it's not true.
....

I get that you fancy yourself an anarchist/libertarian type.

We can choose a different way and create a new natural way. Eventually that will perpetuate itself as well and all groups can be 'naturally' represented.

If it has to be forced and/or requires the use of force, then it's not natural.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. You're essentially advocating force rather than choice, because you don't have time to wait for what you call "equality".

You by your own admission stated that nobody is being discriminated against. Yet, you're openly advocating for the discrimation of "white people" in order to not be racist and discriminatory.

"Hey, maybe we should cast a latino in this role, so as to add some needed diversity" is not discriminating against white people. Not when the default casting is 99% white.

It's never been a question of who is the best actor for the role when the casting is only looking at white men.

 

[SilverStar17]

"Hey, maybe we should cast a latino in this role, so as to add some needed diversity" is not discriminating against white people. Not when the default casting is 99% white.

It's never been a question of who is the best actor for the role when the casting is only looking at white men.

You never answered my query. Why are they ("white males", as you label them) not getting those roles aside from skin tone and gender? If it's not discrimination, as you say.

 

[ShadowX81]

Yes in an ideal world, other races and genders would be given equal opportunity and those things would never be a factor in decision making. But that is not the world we live in and it seems ridiculously naive to think it is. Or to expect those other groups to simply wait around patiently for the white establishment to slowly let them in. When there have been numerous studies to show how that is not what they naturally want to do.

And it's also kinda hilarious that white people are suddenly very concerned about discrimination and racism against us when we haven't had to suffer 1/10 of what these other groups have over the years, or been held back to nearly the same degree.

Funny how you lump me in with all "white people" without knowing my background. Discimination actually been a very huge concern of mine for years. Against all people.

And I'm really alarmed to see society take a massive step backwards on issues that were more or less settled decades ago. By splitting hairs over one racist idiot here or "micro-agressions" there, a new race war has been started in this country.

One thing I know for sure is that discrimination just leads to more discrimination. The more you draw lines in the sand between races, the more it turns into "us" vs. "them", and the worse it is for everyone.

I get that you fancy yourself an anarchist/libertarian type, but there is no 'Natural' state to humanity. That's the great part of humanity. We get to create our own circumstances.

I think you might have me mixed up with another poster. I don't consider myself either. I'm actually moderately right leaning, with most of my political philosophy revolving around the idea that your merit is determined by how well you can fill a need society has.

 

[Vault Boy]

I'm done debating with the defenders. They don't do nuance. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes". Garbage film. Star Wars is dead.

 

[davejames]

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. You're essentially advocating force rather than choice, because you don't have time to wait for what you call "equality".

You by your own admission stated that nobody is being discriminated against. Yet, you're openly advocating for the discrimation of "white people" in order to not be racist and discriminatory.

And you seem to be assuming that we live in a world where everyone has the same opportunity and everything will just naturally become fair and equal if we simply give it enough time. And so we should just not make any effort at all and ignore the many who are feeling left out and disenfranchised today.