Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier (SPOILERS)

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Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

My initial thought is that Winter Soldier was better than Avengers, and in fact, that Winter Soldier rivals Iron Man and Thor 2 as my favorite Marvel Studios outings. Avengers is probably loved as much for the handful of memorable scenes and lines (and of course, getting to see all those guys together) as anything else. Considering the totality of the film, I don't think it's a masterpiece. It's serviceable, but not totally fulfilling if you can divorce yourself from the geek-gasm of seeing those guys teaming up. I was actually a bit disappointed when I first saw Avengers, though my opinion on it has improved since then.

I just still think Begins and Dark Knight are the artistic high points for movies about comic characters, but also see it as more polarizing for various reasons, which can actually account for them having a higher average rating (metacritic), but fewer raters liking them more than disliking them overall (rottentomatoes). Having said that, I think Cap 2 does a terrific job of bringing that style of Jason Bourne/Three Days of the Condor hybrid-type comic movie to the screen. Just as Thor 2 did a terrific job of bringing a great comic fantasy story to the screen. And of course, Nolan wasn't trying to do either of those things, so in some ways it's hard to directly compare them.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

For me if TDK trilogy didn't exist. winter soldier is easily my favorite comic book movie ever. So I'm calling them 1a and 1b. To me There is nothing even close. I like Avengers but it's not near either of these. Superman and Superman II are the next tier with The Crow, Sin City, and 89 Batman. Those were game changer films for me in the comic book genre.

Everything else I would but below these. I still love Avengers, TFA, MoS, IM 1, Thor 1&2, and others, but they are just good solid movies, the others were more.
 
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Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

But the sheer level of action in Cap 2 easily surpasses anything from BB/TDK, not even remotely close.

I watch these movies for ACTION, not just for "serious" acting.
Michael Bay heaps loads of action into his movies, but. . .hell, I saw a DTV Jason Statham movie with more action than Cap 2, but I couldn't stand it. Personally, action is valuable in context. For comic movies, it's usually important, but not necessarily if you're talking, say, Sandman. For this Cap story, it was important, because that was part of the aesthetic, and the nature of the story and character--Cap is a fighter first. For the Nolan Bat-movies, it was arguably less important than the drama surrounding the action--Batman is a detective first.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

TDK > CAWS...end of story. However WS is nonetheless great and one of the best.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Wow. All I can say is WOW!!! this movie was truly a breed all of its own. My favorite MCU film to date. Hell, my favorite comic book film to date. The directing was top notch, the cinematography, the fights, dialogue, acting, etc. This sets the new standard for comic book film making as far as I'm concerned. The Russo brothers more than hit the ball out of the park on this one. Chris Evans has really grown into his role. This movie was on fire from the opening right up to the last scene. I wouldn't be opposed to the Russo brothers taking over the Avengers! I am going to have to see this at least one more time in the theater. This movie is just too damn good. I know that when this opens, I will be there! Forget BVS! DC comics be afraid. Very afraid.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Michael Bay heaps loads of action into his movies, but. . .hell, I saw a DTV Jason Statham movie with more action than Cap 2, but I couldn't stand it. Personally, action is valuable in context. For comic movies, it's usually important, but not necessarily if you're talking, say, Sandman. For this Cap story, it was important, because that was part of the aesthetic, and the nature of the story and character--Cap is a fighter first. For the Nolan Bat-movies, it was arguably less important than the drama surrounding the action--Batman is a detective first.

True true,

my point I guess was that this wasn't just action for actions sake, it served the movie perfectly.

so while TDK has a great story, it severly lacked in the action dept for me.

Cap 2 has a great story AND mind blowing action.

Hopefully Avengers 2 doesn't ruin the big fallout from Cap 2 like TDKR blew TDK's fallout.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I've waited my whole life to see Cap kick *** like he did on the Navy Ship and against the Quinjet. Hell I've waited my whole life to see an awesome Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel and Cap vs. Bucky on the helicarrier actually satisfied THAT desire as well. This movie had the best elements of superheroes, Terminator, Star Wars, and political/spy movies. Move over, um, every other kind of film. :lol
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Metacritic seems to have higher ratings for BB and TDK than Cap, which makes some sense to me. As much as I enjoyed Cap 2, I wouldn't put it in the company of those films. Spider-Man 2 also gets a much higher rating there.

You can't directly compare ratings like that. a 93% film is not necessarily better than a 90%. It doesn't work that way. The critics they aggregate change. Spider-Man 2 set a bar back in the day but that bar has been raised so many times since that it feels flat today.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

You can't directly compare ratings like that. a 93% film is not necessarily better than a 90%. It doesn't work that way. The critics they aggregate change. Spider-Man 2 set a bar back in the day but that bar has been raised so many times since that it feels flat today.

I know, that's why I said I was posting that list all in good fun. I don't swear by those rankings but I wouldn't fault anyone who wanted to rank a 90%+ or upper 80% movie above TWS. TWS was just practically tailor made to my tastes on almost every level.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I'm not too worried about the future of Marvel, because they seem to be improving more than losing traction, and I think one of the main reasons is that they're mixing up the creative teams quite a bit (whether it be out of necessity or design), and doing so with interesting creative teams with something potentially interesting to say (i.e., not Brett Ratner). With TDKR, I think Nolan and Goyer were just burned out. Same with Spider-Man 3. At some point, fresh blood needs to be infused to keep things fresh if you're trying to do sequels and teamups, and not wholly original films where the writers/directors can have the freedom to follow whatever muse happens to appear to them. When they're just finishing out a contract, you aren't going to get that same level of product. Same really goes with actors. I get the sense that RDJ's had about enough, and better to move on than keep him involved giving 30% effort or whatever. Same with Evans after the next Cap movie I guess.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I'm not too worried about the future of Marvel, because they seem to be improving more than losing traction, and I think one of the main reasons is that they're mixing up the creative teams quite a bit (whether it be out of necessity or design), and doing so with interesting creative teams with something potentially interesting to say (i.e., not Brett Ratner). With TDKR, I think Nolan and Goyer were just burned out. Same with Spider-Man 3. At some point, fresh blood needs to be infused to keep things fresh if you're trying to do sequels and teamups, and not wholly original films where the writers/directors can have the freedom to follow whatever muse happens to appear to them. When they're just finishing out a contract, you aren't going to get that same level of product. Same really goes with actors. I get the sense that RDJ's had about enough, and better to move on than keep him involved giving 30% effort or whatever. Same with Evans after the next Cap movie I guess.

I don't think so. If his facebook account is anything to go by, he is still loving it all. I think he did not jive well with Shane Black.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

You can't directly compare ratings like that. a 93% film is not necessarily better than a 90%. It doesn't work that way. The critics they aggregate change. Spider-Man 2 set a bar back in the day but that bar has been raised so many times since that it feels flat today.
I don't think any of these are perfect metrics, but I certainly think they're comparable, as are Rotten Tomatoes scores. The purpose isn't to gauge change in specific critics' opinions, but the typical response of "respected" critics, on the aggregate, reviewing a film at a given point in time. Which tells you something, though it won't necessarily mesh with any given individual fan's opinion.

I totally disagree about Spider-Man 2, as I still think it rivals anything since then. A good film is a good film. Folks recognized the flaws of X-Men 1 when it first came out. This isn't a question of whether a film has better or lesser digital effects, it's a question of whether or not it tells a good comic story.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

There's no doubt that the best part of TDK was the joker and ledgers performance. But i can't say that i was all that invested in Two Face or Whats-her-name and Bruce's relationship. Batman's voice STILL bothers me to this day.

TWS wins in a lot of categories for me. Emotional connection to characters being the most important.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I think he did not jive well with Shane Black.
That's weird for me to hear since Black is essentially responsible for his career resurgence with Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and I figured he would have gauged from that whether or not he would want to work with him again.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I've waited my whole life to see Cap kick *** like he did on the Navy Ship and against the Quinjet. Hell I've waited my whole life to see an awesome Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel and Cap vs. Bucky on the helicarrier actually satisfied THAT desire as well. This movie had the best elements of superheroes, Terminator, Star Wars, and political/spy movies. Move over, um, every other kind of film. :lol

Well said, and yeah, pretty much so. :lol

Hell, in my head Hydra-net sent WS thru the Smithsonian time machine to take out Captain John Connor and Sarah Widow.

This was the proper follow up to T2. :lol
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I don't think any of these are perfect metrics, but I certainly think they're comparable, as are Rotten Tomatoes scores. The purpose isn't to gauge change in specific critics' opinions, but the typical response of "respected" critics, on the aggregate, reviewing a film at a given point in time. Which tells you something, though it won't necessarily mesh with any given individual fan's opinion.

I totally disagree about Spider-Man 2, as I still think it rivals anything since then. A good film is a good film. Folks recognized the flaws of X-Men 1 when it first came out. This isn't a question of whether a film has better or lesser digital effects, it's a question of whether or not it tells a good comic story.

Rottentomatoes was never intended to be used to compare films to one another in that way. It merely indicates the percentage of critics that liked the film. It does not rate their degree of satisfaction. They may have merely liked the film or they may have loved it. The only indicator rottentomatoes gives the audience is what the chances are that you will like the film.

I still standby the fact that SM2 feels flat now. I tried recently rewatching these and I can't get into them the same way. Parker comes off as too whiny and emo. The whole depowering thing doesn't work well anymore. It can (and will) be surpassed by other spidey movies.
 
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