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Cheech and Chong that ????. "I got one leg over my shoulder. Two legs over my shoulder. *muffle muffle muffle muffle muffle muffle*"
 
Blackthornone,
I do not apologize for not having the sheer amount of spare time you have to write such lengthy posts.

But I assure you and everyone on this board that for every "educated" point you have made, I can rebute them one by one.

You have taken studies and chosen to pick and choose what information fits into your agenda and ignore the data that doesn't.

And the fact that some of your nutritional info can be found on broadcast news is interesting.


But here is what I have time for tonight:

Blackthornone said:
Well, the Hunzas eat meat once a year, and consume goat milk somewhat regularly. Otherwise, they eat a vegan diet. The Vivacabambans, and the Abkaisans eat very little meat, I mean a handful of times a year at most. Otherwise, they eat a little milk. None of these people's diets are religiously motivated, that I am aware of. It is simply a frugal use of limited resources. Even if there WERE no indigenous people who ate a vegan diet, that wouldn't really answer the basic question. The basic question is, can it be done on a log term basis, successfully, and the answer is, at the very LEAST, that dropping ones consumption of animal products to less than 10% of one's diet is what gives indigenous peoples the greatest longevity, and that there are people like Gary Null, who has basically been a vegan (except he eats honey) for decades, and still race walks and runs marathons at the highest levels and wins, which he has done for decades. He has been world champion at race walking a number of times. Look at Dave Scott, who won the Iron Man 6 times. He ate no meat.
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Firstly:
If after 300,000 years you can only name 3 tribes of people, I rest my case.

But Alas! I do not.


Secondly:
viv.jpg




Thirdly:
viv2.jpg




:dunno

And Fourth:
The Hunzas are nowhere near a vegan society. Yogurt is the staple of their diet along with milk and cheese. Their goat milk is very high in fat. And although they may only consume red meat a few times a month, they do eat quite a bit of chicken.

Not vegan nor even vegetarian.

The truth of the matter is that there is No Such Thing as a naturally occurring tribe of vegans or even vegetarians.

And if it were truly what God (or Mother Nature) designed for us, then most, if not all, indigenous peoples would be vegan.

Sure, you can take a chimp or bear out of its environment and feed it a vegan diet.
Will it live? Probably.
Will it thrive? Probably not.
Is it the right thing to do? Definitely not.

The way you eat is, obviously, your *choice*.
Please don't claim it to be the *healthiest* choice.


But here's another Big Picture:
You CANNOT compare peoples living in an unpolluted environment and living a minimally stress-free life to someone sitting in traffic, getting yelled at by bosses, trying to afford huge bills and breathing and drinking dirty air and water.

The Hunzas don't have any pesticides, chemicals, heavy metal toxicities, nor imbalances, nor definciencies passed down to their children.
Our kids start off with multiple strikes against them from the get-go.

A monk can quiet his mind and go sit on a mountain top and not eat for a month. Your average business man or construction worker can't and shouldn't even attempt it.

Anyone can take time off and go for a detox retreat and cleanse or even fast. Somewhere away from it all- nice and quiet. Maybe not eat for a while, or just minimally. Good for the body and soul. But it should be only temporary, as should a vegan diet.


Even if there WERE no indigenous people who ate a vegan diet, that wouldn't really answer the basic question. The basic question is, can it be done on a log term basis, successfully,
Click to expand...
Not a good arguement.

We all know of people who have smoked and drank and ate whatever they wanted and still lived to be 90-something. Just because it's possible does not make it the right thing to do. And *most* people wouldn't be successful.

Same with veganism. Just because a few can do it successfully does not mean that the majority will gain by it. And that's exactly what we are seeing.

Vegans typically suffer from health problems and DO NOT live longer than omnivores.

There are few studies comparing vegan/vegetarian lifespans to omnivores. The ones that exist do not compare an "enlightened" vegan, like yourself to an "enlightened" omnivore, like myself. They always compare the fruit and veggie eater to someone who lives on fast food or ham n cheese sandwiches.

Not a fair fight in my book nor should it be in anyone else's.

Regardless, let's take a look at this study:

table1.jpg



https://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vegetarianism.html

Blackthornone said:
Maybe meat eaters like turd jokes so much because there is crap in meat, because it is colon germs that tenderize the meat when it is being processed before butchering. When you eat meat, you are literally eating crap, and the uric acid in the meat is basically the urine of the animal you are eating. It's not just an animal issue, it's a grossness issue. They say you are what you eat. Hmmm. Look, if you aren't really interested in vegetarianism, why even post in the thread? For example, I don't post in the LOTR thread, because I'm not interested in the LOTR. Nothing against it, just not really into it.
Click to expand...

I am posting in this thread because I get tired of the misinformation and hypocrisy that both sides put forth. Once again, a vegan or vegetarian who consumes bread, pasta and even vegetables that are monocultured are just as destructive to the environment as someone who is eating a factory farmed burger...

Wetlands, entire eco-systems, are being destroyed for the soy industry. Believe me, your non-tasty tofu dog has still caused death.

https://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/


Living takes Life. Period.

And my meat is not covered in crap, thank you very much. It was sustainably farmed and nurtured the land before being humanely dispatched.

And please stop making stuff up like colon germs tenderize meat. What bu££$h!t propaganda did you get that from?!
Your soy industry pamplet?

And if God meant for us to eat uric acid, well then, that's good enough for me! Yummmy.


Blackthornone said:
Have you actually TRIED a top vegan dish made by a top chef of all organic ingredients? I doubt it. You are speculating. You don't know what you are talking about. Think of this: What is meat? a combination of elements in particular proportions that determine its properties, like flavor, texture, ect. There is no reason why you could not come up with a combination of vegetable elements that mimics meat. After all, the COW did it, to make it's flesh. If a COW can combine vegetable ingredients to make something that tastes like flesh, because it IS flesh, there is no reason why human beings cannot do the same, because both humans and cows have the same raw materials to work with. What I'm in essence saying, is that there is no reason why human beings cannot come up with a meat substitute, or a meat analog made out of vegetable matter, unless you lack the intelligence to do so. Everything on Earth is made up of the periodic table of elements. Look at the big picture. Besides, WE as human beings are BETTER than animals, and as such, I believe we can do ANYTHING they can do, and do it BETTER, WITHOUT their help!
Click to expand...
Humans and cows may have the same raw materials but an ungulate's body is infinitely more adept at assimilating nutrients from plant matter than ours. And they consume huge amounts of insects while grazing and the bacteria and protozoa that they've cultured in their 3 stomach chambers get digested in their 4th to keep their protein levels up.

I am unaware of any human creating that feat.

Anyway, the majority of your meat substitutes are either made from unfermented soy (hard to digest, naturally high in aluminum, thyroid disrupter, sheesh- it's even cut cows lifespans in half! And, oh yeah, it's that damn ecosystem-killing evil monoculture too...) or it's made from hydrolyzed veggie protein or TVP (that's textured veg. protein to most of you). And guess what? That's the basis for MSG, a powerful neurotoxin.

Take a looksie here:

https://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

Def not a good meat substitute, if you ask me.

So you may claim that you are better than animals, and that may be true.

But there is no way you are smarter than God (or Mother Nature) and as far as my experience goes, Man only corrupts.


Blackthornone said:
Bad genetics is caused by bad health habits, which was proven by the Nova program on epigenetics that I mentioned earlier. Enough generations of bad health habits equals genetic defects. Your father was one of those people who CLEARLY had bad health habits. He had TWO heart attacks? That's a failure. If you told me he had NO heart attacks or strokes, or had no serious health problems his entire life, that would mean only that his ancestors over most of the generations had good enough health habits to pass on good strong genetics.

Waitresses have gotten lung cancer and they don't even smoke. They got it from second hand smoke.

Again, bad genes ARE CAUSED by bad health habits, which is to say human actions, over many generations. Cause=effect.
Click to expand...

Yeah not much arguement from me there, but let's take a look from this angle:

https://www.thincs.org/links.htm


Blackthornone said:
If given a rabbit and a carrot, most babies will pet the rabbit, and eat the carrot, and not the other way around. Therefore, meat eating is conditioned.
Click to expand...
But the first thing indiginous peoples fed/feed their babies is either raw meats or raw egg yolks, not carrot.

The enzymes and metabolisms needed to digest proteins are the first thing that matures in a baby. And the last digestive ability to mature is the capability to digest grain.

Our programmed and "conditioned" culture is who has decided that cereal should be a baby's first solid food. And with that decision comes colic and allergies and a whole host of other digestive upsets that our ancestors knew to avoid.

Human breast milk is one of the most cholesterol dense foods on the planet and half of it's fat is saturated. How on earth can it be harmful?

And how do you jump from a cholesterol and fat filled fluid to a carrot???


Blackthornone said:
Basically the reason why you like a steak is because you were conditioned to. A lot of people after they turn vegetarian, after they have broken through their conditioning, feel sick at the smell of cooking meat. That should tell you something. If they hadn't been conditioned to like meat at first, they wouldn't have ever liked it.
Click to expand...
No.
What your "example" tells me is that after not using their body the way it was intended, their body is no longer producing the digestive enzymes that's required for assimilating meat and their gall bladders have atrophied from lack of use. Pop some Garden of Life Ultra Omega-Zyme and prime the gall bladder and you're back in business.
Use it or lose it!


Blackthornone said:
By the way, I'm not denying the tastes that meat or beef has. It has the salty sweet tangy salty taste that is very appealing to people, and so is.addictive to people. I'm saying the exact taste of meat is horrible, because of what it is, which is a mucus, snotty, slimy, urine feces infested muck that I don't want in my body. It is death and cow-ness, and I don't want death OR cow-ness in my body. The idea of cow-ness inside my body disgusts me. I don't care if it's the best tasting stuff on Earth. I Still wouldn't eat it. I don't care if it was 100 times better tasting than the best vegan dish, or even one million times better tasting. The fact that it is slimy, snotty, urine soaked, feces filled dead cow-ness causes me to find the stuff too disgusting to put in my body. Of course, when you add to that all the diseases it causes when you eat it, there is no way I am ever eating that crap again.
Click to expand...

The fact that you are now resorting to "scare tactics" is humorous and enlightening...


th_holiday.gif
 
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Blackthornone said:
devilof76 brought UP the subject way out of left field.
Click to expand...

I'm in an exceptionally bad mood as of late, and it irks the living piss out of me that I have to articulate this, but out of respect for the people who have been subject to your contributions in this thread, I'll make the effort.

1) There was nothing out of left field in my post. You stated that a baby's eating habits were indicative of what an adult's should be, so I asked you if an adult's excretory habits should be what a baby's are. Then you dumped a pretentious post about how primitive people don't wear pants, and that their women have nothing better to do than raise children, and then indulged yourself with a happy little collectivist jab at Western society having inferior bonds between mother and child (all points which not only served to evade my question, but also failed to change the point I made). Whether a mother spends the mental energy required to prevent her child from voiding itself as an infant, or as a toddler, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the behavior is not conditioned it is learned.

The difference between conditioning and learning is that learning is a volitional behavior. It requires mental effort on the part of the individual acquiring knowledge that they had not previously possessed. Conditioning is what happens through evolution. It is deterministic, mechanical, and automatic. It is where animals acquire their habits, and it is where any kind of receptor for signals from the world outside of the body as to what should be eaten are developed.

2) Human beings do not get this information via evolution. We do not have instincts. We have to develop the body of knowledge required to survive on our own. Presumably, this is how eating meat, grains, and vegetables arose. They saw what other animals were eating. As the body of knowledge advanced through experimentation and rational thought, the quality of the food they consumed increased.

3) There are benefits to eating meat that are impossible to get from vegetables. You make a big deal of the excess protein and fat in animal products, but ignore two other chemicals that meat provides in quantities that no vegetable can: iron and phosphorous. While spinach may contain iron, it also contains oxalic acid which inhibits iron absorption. And, while many vegetables contain phosphorous, they have it in the form of phytic acid, which requires significant effort from the body to make it useful.

As for protein, animal protein is better for humans in that it contains the amino acids we need ready made. Again, the body must expend extra effort to convert plant proteins into usable amino acids.

Meat also contains animal fat (who would have guessed) and as it were, your body needs fat. Do you figure that lipids designed for plants work better in a body requiring the services of animal fat?

4) If the only point to consumption is the maintenance of life, why not simply relegate yourself to a diet of purified supplements? Can't you get everything your body needs just as well from powdered nutrients? Why eat at all? I'm sure something intravenous can be contrived. We have now advanced to the point that we know the precise positive and negative effects of nearly any dietary decision. Shouldn't we just cut out the middle man and abandon eating as another benign primitve habit, conditioned from our centuries spent as ignorant food addicts?

5) We are not conditioned to eat what we choose to eat. Our subconscious values do have an effect on our response to sensory stimuli. If we have come to the conclusion that we are eating death and piss and ???? when we have a steak, I imagine that the experience will not be pleasant. But like all knowledge, those sub-conscious values are not acquired through passive conditioning. They are chosen based on what we know about the world and ourselves.

The best that I can tell, veganism is not based specifically on a desire to eat healthily. It is specifically a desire to avoid the use of animal products, and that the motivation is moral. This would be why soapbox vegetarians find such utterly hostile reactions from the people they abuse with their 'wisdom'. Diet is a highly malleable process, and health can be arrived at through it in a million different ways. There is absolutely zero science that can claim that meat eating itself is inherently unhealthy. Eating processed meats? Yes. Nitrates are serious carcinogens. Eating excessive meat? At very high levels, protein can caused kidney failure. It also makes for bad digestion. So what? Phosphorous at the right level can create some violent havoc on a body too. By the same token, arsenic and cyanide in low doses does nothing. The fact that a chemical is present in a food means nothing whatsoever in terms of the danger presented.

People who enjoy meat are people who have learned through experience and the most complex cognitive-biofeedback processes existing on this planet that the taste they are responding to is something that provides them with somethng their body needs. There is no ????ing conspiracy of subliminal culture working to brainwash them into murdering animals for ????s, giggles, and their own destruction. There are idiots in any society and people will abuse their bodies so long as their is abundance enough to get away with it. But the abundance that has engendered America's diet problems is what made possible the capacity of American (and more largely, Western) culture to support life on a scale undreamed of in all of history. Do you know what substance was absolutely integral in raising the poverty ravaged masses of Europe into the ever expanding middle class that became America's laural wreath? The same substance became a symbol of that passage from peasant to independent, self-sustaining man.

The substance was meat. Because you can't build a nation on tofu. Or rice. Or potatoes. It takes too much energy, too much work, too much strength, and too much time. When meat became affordable, industrial America became possible.

Incidentally, the gross excess of leisure people have now been afforded, in which they have the time to invest a college degree's worth of study into planning their nightly meal, only exists because this country is the monster of productivity that it is. That level of productivity exists only on account of the industry that came before it. At root, had it not been for the meat eating culture that this country prides itself on as its origin, there would not be veganism. Maybe there would be a handful of hunter gatherers scattered around the globe, picking through the dirt for dinner due to their limited resources. They would scratch out their lives in small communities and would live out average lifespans. Good for them. However, at this point in time, the world is too populated to live on grass fed beef and hummus (delicious as it may be). A shift to a vegan diet would cause mass starvation on this planet.

And it would be insane for the sole reason that veganism is flat out not necessary. Nor for many is it in the least bit preferable. When we get right down to it, that is all that matters. Unless you intend to begin prescribing the values by which people live their lives, and have designs on converting those who do not share your tastes to tastes which you approve of. If that's the case, I'm reminded of one famous vegetarian in particular. But I'll keep that one to myself.
 
devilof76 said:
I'm in an exceptionally bad mood as of late, and it irks the living piss out of me that I have to articulate this, but out of respect for the people who have been subject to your contributions in this thread, I'll make the effort.

1) There was nothing out of left field in my post. You stated that a baby's eating habits were indicative of what an adult's should be, so I asked you if an adult's excretory habits should be what a baby's are. Then you dumped a pretentious post about how primitive people don't wear pants, and that their women have nothing better to do than raise children, and then indulged yourself with a happy little collectivist jab at Western society having inferior bonds between mother and child (all points which not only served to evade my question, but also failed to change the point I made). Whether a mother spends the mental energy required to prevent her child from voiding itself as an infant, or as a toddler, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the behavior is not conditioned it is learned.
Click to expand...
It seemed to me that the issue we were discussing was one of natural habits( which is to say evolution) or conditioning. Conditioning is a result of learning. It was out of left field because you brought up a subject unrelated to vegetarianism. Conditioning vs learning is a different topic. I agree with your differentiation between conditioning vs learning, but a lot of people do some things so automatically, that they are basically on auto pilot, engaging in conditioned behavior. But that is all beside the point.
 
devilof76 said:
As for protein, animal protein is better for humans in that it contains the amino acids we need ready made. Again, the body must expend extra effort to convert plant proteins into usable amino acids.

Meat also contains animal fat (who would have guessed) and as it were, your body needs fat. Do you figure that lipids designed for plants work better in a body requiring the services of animal fat?

4) If the only point to consumption is the maintenance of life, why not simply relegate yourself to a diet of purified supplements? Can't you get everything your body needs just as well from powdered nutrients? Why eat at all? I'm sure something intravenous can be contrived. We have now advanced to the point that we know the precise positive and negative effects of nearly any dietary decision. Shouldn't we just cut out the middle man and abandon eating as another benign primitve habit, conditioned from our centuries spent as ignorant food addicts?
Click to expand...
human beings need amino acids to make its own protein. Animal protein must first be broken down into their basic amino acids and then converted into human protein.
The body makes it's own fat.

Liquid diets don't work, because people need to use their teeth. If they don't they don't get exercised, and they fall out. I did consider a liquid diet, but the tooth thing is a problem.
 

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