intothevoid
Batmod
And here... we… go!
Gotham has been seething under the surface. The Dent Act is effectively only papering over the problem (because it is based on a lie, which is symbolic). Gordon realizes this, that’s why he can’t live with it, and that’s why he’s still acting like he’s at war. Wayne doesn’t realize it, he thinks making Batman the outlaw worked, and that Gotham is truly at peace, even if he personally is not. Of course, he’s wrong, and that’s the arc of Bruce Wayne in TDKR
– he has to realize lasting peace can’t be built on a lie, and that he himself can’t wallow in his self-pity forever
– he has to face the truth about Rachel, and Gotham has to face the truth about Dent.
Regarding my comment on Gotham being seething under the surface, and it’s definitely not limited to the Blackgate prisoners who have (arguably) wrongly been locked up without proper trials or opportunities to appeal (nice parallel to the Kangaroo court of Crane later btw) – there are clear indications of this given to us.
- The orphan boy who washes up from the sewers. He was the brother of the younger orphan Blake visits at the orphanage. He was working in the sewers for lack of any real opportunities in the real world on surface level.
- Combine this with what Catwoman tells Wayne – ‘you think all this can last… you can live so large and leave so little for the rest of us’.
- Bane’s speech – ‘we take Gotham from the corrupt. The rich. The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with the myth of opportunity’
- It’s the classis 99% vs 1% theme. Something with Wayne is too naïve and ignorant to realize sitting cozy and alone in his mansion for all these years.
Now coming to the theme of escalation:
At the end of BB and during TDK we see how Batman has inadvertently caused ‘escalation’ – he is directly responsible for the existence of the Joker. The Joker exists because of Batman, he has no reason to exist otherwise. Throughout TDK, the Joker tries to prove that people are fickle, they have no code, they will be selfish and support whatever it is that will get them ahead or serve their purpose. Batman proves Joker wrong about people in the ferries scenario, but Joker has his ace in the hole – he’s managed to take Gotham’s White Knight and turn him into a psycho who’s lost his faith in being a good man
‘you thought we could be decent men, in an indecent time’.
So the Joker is all set to win out in his idealogy – except, Batman and Gordon cover it up with their lie about Dent. The Joker Cannot win. They make sure of it.
This allows the passing of the Dent Act – and a crackdown on the mob and criminality unlike any Gotham’s ever seen. Batman retires because there is no organized crime left. What happened to escalation you ask? What happened to the freaks like Joker?
Well – the Joker wasn’t allowed to win – and things got to a point where Batman could retire – without Batman, there’s no catalyst for another freak like the Joker to come about. Without a Yin, there’s no Yang.
And without Joker (who’s presumably at Arkham), and without Joker winning out, there’s no inspiration for copycat Jokers either.
Do I think this is the most logical next step of the story after TDK? Of course not! I wouldn’t have imagined this being the next step in a 100 yrs. But that in and of itself doesn’t make me feel like it’s a cop out or its wrong, or that it doesn’t work.
What we get in TDKR in fact is something to me that is superior to whatever I concocted in my head – because it provides a definitive end to Bruce Wayne’s story arc. That to me is the MOST satisfying thing I could have hoped for out of a third and final film in the trilogy.
I can accept to reach that end, the 8 yr gap needs to happen, and the way it is explained in retrospect makes complete sense as part of a trilogy even if it isn’t the LOGICAL next step from TDK.
It doesn’t HAVE to result in 8 year peace – but the fact that that’s the story they chose does not mean it shouldn’t work. The Joker is locked up. After him escaping the first time, you’d think they put him in a proper high security prison. Yes I know that the Joker will always find a way to escape and in my mind post TDKR he damn sure will, Batman 2.0 will face him, he IS still destined to do this forever with Batman even if TDKR doesn’t address it.
Ramirez? Please – she’s a minor nuisance, anything could have happened to her, not least Gordon cracking down on his own department and locking up everyone who was found to be tainted.
TDK’s Ending
- Yes Batman’s faith in people is rewarded with Ferry’s not blowing up
- Yes Fox’s faith in Bruce is rewarded by Sonar computer being wired to self destruct
- Yes Bruce’s faith in Rachel is rewarded by Alfred sheltering him from the truth about her choosing Dent
- But the question is whether Gotham’s faith in Dent is rewarded? Gotham doesn’t believe in the Batman, especially after the events of TDK and them being fed the lie that Batman was responsible for the death of their White Knight. The fact that he hasn’t cowered or submitted to Joker like you say isn’t what having faith in Dent was about – having faith in Dent was about giving Gotham a shot at CLEAN STREETS.
‘Think of all you could do with 18 months of clean streets’
THAT is the promise of Dent. THAT is the faith that needs to be rewarded to fulfil the promise of TDK’s ending to it’s fullest.
TDKR says, yes, even Gotham’s faith in Dent was rewarded. 18 months of clean streets becomes 8 years due to the Dent act.
Yes, they could easily have taken it another direction and said, no, it isn’t, Batman is on the run, the mob and their goons are in Blackgate due to Batman taking the fall for Dent but escalation is in full force, Batman is still out there, and he’s still inspiring more freaks like Man-Bat, Riddler and Killer Croc etc etc (just as examples), the war on crime has entered a new phase. Sure, we could have seen that story. But we didn’t, and we also didn’t see 100 other possible iterations of stories that COULD have followed from TDK.
TDKR doesn’t smash BB or TDK. It enhances them.
- It enhances BB is so many ways, all the full circle elements have the effect of closing out the different story threads for me. Just a couple of the major examples: Batman finally becomes the symbol and legend he set out to be. LoS returns as they have done for centuries, trying yet again. This time with a more sophisticated plan – a mix of economics, theatricality and deception.
- It enhances TDK because it tells us how gravely the evens of that film effected Bruce, and Gotham. It doesn’t have to mention the Joker explicitly to do that. But logic dictates that the Joker caused the events of TDK and therefore his presence is all over TDKR.
See above
All good points and pretty much agree.
Harvey Dent day is no sillier than Martin Luthor King Day or any other public holiday named after a heroic public figure.
The people don’t care about Gordon’s stuff about ‘the truth about Harvey’ etc. because the audience at that event is all the elite and rich who’re enjoying great peacetime. They couldn’t care less about what the truth is or not. The only people concerned with that would be the Blackgate inmates or the 99% out on the streets struggling for jobs.
I’ve already explained how I think any notion of this story effectively assuming the Joker doesn’t exist is unfounded.
I can accept that this doesn’t FEEL like a direct sequel to TDK, it feels like the END of the story that started with BB and TDK though. Like it’s been suggested a few times, it feels like a 4th movie to some, I can see that. There’s room for another film in between. But I can let my imagination run wild with that. Would I take a 3rd film which doesn’t give us the END of Bruce’s story but feels like a direct sequel to TDK over what we got with TDKR? Probably not. But I DO GET that you, and many others, would prefer that.
The Same people, having the same argument, in the same thread.
This movie is taking a beating because of Nolan's misguided self righteous infatuation to honor and protect Heath Ledger.
Yes, we get the whole journey to create a symbol for good, but at the expense of so much that was great in TDK just being discarded because Ledger overdosed.
Yes, Joker was already done perfectly once, but the 8 year gap was a bizarre choice even without having to show Joker again in TDKR.
Please read above
Yeah this cuts to the heart of the problems the nitpickers are facing with this film I think – for me I really like the direction of TDKR, it’s not what I expected or even wanted after TDK.
But having seen it, I really would not have it any other way story wise.
Sure I think TDKR has flaws, for instance things I would change: adding back some deleted stuff and giving some scenes more room to breathe, cleaning up the ‘impossible’ plot hole and reinstating the prologue dialogue…. But I have a similarly long list of things I would change for each of BB and TDK.
