Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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The OT Vader was too charismatic, too self-assured, and too badass for the PT Anakin to be a believable representation of the man who grew into that Vader.

“The man who was your father died, and became Darth Vader” (or words to that effect).

A more Vader-like Anakin wouldn’t have made for much of a downfall. Plus Hayden’s Anakin was reminiscent of Luke (and Kylo, for that matter).

And you gotta admit, Anakin was getting darker by ROTS...
 
Both Lucas with the PT and Johnson with TLJ set out to do something different, and for that I applaud them, even if the results were not universally liked.

I think it's refreshing that a mega corporation like Disney/LFL is willing to take these sort of risks instead of just dishing up the same fan service time after time (though it must have realised it can only do that for so long).
 
“The man who was your father died, and became Darth Vader” (or words to that effect).

A more Vader-like Anakin wouldn’t have made for much of a downfall. Plus Hayden’s Anakin was reminiscent of Luke (and Kylo, for that matter).

And you gotta admit, Anakin was getting darker by ROTS...

I understand what you're getting at, but there's a difference between someone's demeanor and someone's core personality. Of course PT Anakin's demeanor and behavior needed to be different than Vader's; but his core personality didn't need to be such a drastic departure. A vulnerably lovesick, whiny, petulant young adult (PT Anakin) is not believable to me as defining characteristics of someone who would evolve into the man behind that Vader persona in the OT.

Yes, he was darker in ROTS; but if he wasn't, it'd be utterly ridiculous. He had to be darker. And, yes Luke could be whiny too - and very much a heart-driven personality - but I don't think he'd ever have been like Vader was in the OT either. And Kylo is no Vader; to quote Snoke: "just a child . . . in a mask." And that's exactly what a PT Anakin would end up being more like as Vader: a child . . . in a mask. Not like what the OT Vader was at all!

I appreciate and respect your consistent defense of the prequels, though. Whatever view I (or anyone else) have of those films, or of their character portrayals, doesn't matter. If you enjoyed them, then you're in the more enviable position.
 
Just wanted to clarify why I have even bothered writing anything in here.

It’s not just the movie has major issues. It’s that by his own admission the director sent out to make a divisive movie, which does not mean making the best Star Wars movie he can. What it does mean is that he purposely made a movie that would divide people – THAT WAS HIS GOAL.

I know that RJ made a comment about wanting to make divisive movies while in film school or something. But he was much younger and young people tend to have stupid egotistic ideas because they think they are smarter than they are. Did he ever specifically say that he meant for TLJ to be divisive? I suspect Disney would have a problem with that being his motivation. I am not saying he didn't have that intention, I am just wondering if he said anything recently to that effect.
 
Caught! Rian Johnson, winner of the Saturn award for his script for The Last Jedi, brazenly plagiarized the ending of the film, "Escape from LA". Both films viewed side by side.

 
“The man who was your father died, and became Darth Vader” (or words to that effect).

A more Vader-like Anakin wouldn’t have made for much of a downfall. Plus Hayden’s Anakin was reminiscent of Luke (and Kylo, for that matter).

And you gotta admit, Anakin was getting darker by ROTS...

That's the problem. It was reminiscent of Kylo. Yes, he was dark. But not all types of evil are equal.

Vader in the OT was calm, confident, and restrained. He was a natural leader with an inner strength who barely had to say or do anything to get people to follow his orders. Pragmatic and unemotional, he was always thinking a step ahead.

Compare this to the brash, overly emotional teenager in the PT who often acted out of impulse first and rationalized it later. He never seemed to be in control of himself or his surroundings, quickly became frustrated, and as a result often made people (even loved ones) uncomfortable.

You could have easily had a calmer, more mature and confident Anakin who was recognizable as Vader.

You could make the argument that this massive shift in psychological makeup happened in the 20 years between the series, but then what is the point of the prequels if we don't even get to see the characters we love become who they are?
 
I think this explains the divide between those that liked the film and those that didn't pretty well:



I've been seeing the same arguments brought up here from both sides. The video is not meant to make you like, or dislike TLJ, but gives some nice insight over why you might, and others may disagree.
 
I appreciate and respect your consistent defense of the prequels, though. Whatever view I (or anyone else) have of those films, or of their character portrayals, doesn't matter. If you enjoyed them, then you're in the more enviable position.


Thanks, yes I’ve been thinking myself lucky for actually liking the prequels. You folks must envy me the way I envy those who liked Solo!
 
Anakin was developed a lot more in the Clone wars show. But I agree that you shouldn't have to watch all of them to appreciate his personality refinements. You should watch them however as it's a great show....

I don't have the same issues with him going on the PT alone though tbh. His world was violently torn apart. He lost everything he knew and loved, including much of his own physical body and that has drastic affects. As did the way in which Palpatine choose to make his transformation into Vader as painful as possible. The dark side enveloped him and he stopped being Anakin, soppy aspects of his personality and all.
 
Interesting video about interpretation, Ernest.

Thanks! I think he does a good job at analyzing how this film became as polarizing as it was.

The issue isn’t actually the movie, as most people seem to think. The issue is the director, who made it the way he did by design to fulfill his personal goals, and Disney for letting him... not only that, but also rewarding him by giving Rian his own trilogy to hatchet and bludgeon out.

If the issue isn't actually the movie though, does that mean if you did not know who Rian was, or his alleged motivations in writing the film, does this mean that you'll like it?

I think the dislike of the movie happened first, then people are now using Rian's apparent desire to divide fanbases as another reason to justify their dislikes.

When you buy milk within the expiration date, you don't expect it to be sour. If you sell milk and it’s good one week and sour the next, you won’t have any customers – even those looking to buy sour milk won’t buy yours because it might be good that week - YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT.

Johnson’s goal wasn’t to craft a good story; it was to divide fans. This isn’t a matter of interpretation, this is a matter of public record and fact (yes it’s on YouTube, I saw it myself and I’m sure you can find it).

So with that goal in mind, he didn't want to put out good quality milk or sour milk, he had to put out "meh" milk just on the edge of being sour without making it all out sour, so to speak. But it had to be milk that was both brilliant and horrible by interpretation, that's the tricky sneaky part.

So how do you do this? Well, you do small things to spoil it without all-out spoiling it... you walk a fine line, so that it is forced to FIT INTO BECOMING a matter of interpretation - some people will taste that the milk is off, others will say it's still good. Both are right. The milk is not 100% okay, nor is it 100% spoiled, it is in between. By design.

So indulge me here.... If someone wrote a story where Hitler saved a Jewish preschool or Mother Theresa opened fire on an orphanage with a bazooka, you would surely think it’s out of character. For it to work in a story, you would certainly want an explanation as to how the person came to that, you wouldn’t just accept it because it’s so far out of character. BUT a good writer could make it work with the proper CONTEXT. Context is EVERYTHING.

I think that analogy is a bit exaggerated to be honest. This is more of a case of people buying coffee. Some like their coffee bitter and earthy, while others might want it fruity and sweet. The Hitler or Mother Teresa comparison was likewise over the top too I think. The characters are different from what we expected for sure, but to be honest, I never found them to be so far from what they were at the OT. At the very least, Anakin of the PT was further from the Darth Vader of the OT than Luke of OT was to Luke of TLJ.

Leia is never shown using the Force, but suddenly without any context she’s flying through space using the Force to save herself.

Yeah I wish they've shown her to be more Force sensitive, but it was hinted in the OT by Yoda himself, that Leia was also powerful in the Force. My memory is fuzzy on TFA (I did not like that movie), but I think she also sensed the death of Han?

The film still sucks, but I find the director to be a brilliant study into how to manipulate people like a certain Emperor. If you watched interviews with the cast, it collaborates this... Hamil felt manipulated... and I won't repeat here what Fisher called him, lol.

I definitely respect your dislike of the film. Don't get me wrong (with picking on the responses here). Every one has the right to their own subjective opinion afterall. :) Personally, I found all the context I needed to like the film. I liked this better than TFA, TPM and ROTS to be honest.
 
I know that RJ made a comment about wanting to make divisive movies while in film school or something. But he was much younger and young people tend to have stupid egotistic ideas because they think they are smarter than they are. Did he ever specifically say that he meant for TLJ to be divisive?

No but many people who didn't like the movie are taking that 10 or 20 year old video of him saying that he likes making movies that some people love and some people hate as "proof" that that was what he deliberately set out to do with TLJ. To my knowledge he has said nothing of the kind but that hasn't stopped some people from stating it as fact. Anyone who went to the latest Celebration and saw him personally greeting everyone who waited in line for the TLJ panel knows that he definitely didn't come across as someone who was secretly taking glee at the fact that he was going to piss off a very vocal portion of them.

I honestly think that the backlash caught him off guard in part on account of how poorly and seemingly unprepared he has been in responding to it. The vitriol from some fans definitely hasn't appeared to be "all part of the plan" based on his reactions.
 
So apparently, it's now canon that Rey "downloaded" Kylo's skills when he linked with her in TFA

Boo ya, called it in December 2015. :rock

https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118180&p=8323442&viewfull=1#post8323442

Remember how Kylo's attempt to withdraw knowledge out of Rey's mind backfired. She pulled info out his head instead. Who's to say that she didn't download some of his fencing skills?

"You're afraid of not being as powerful as Darth Vader. And ah...that's how you deflect a lightsaber attack..."

Kylo: "S***!"
 
Khev at home thinking about IX:

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