Star Wars: Ahsoka

[Khev]

All that matters to me were those awesome scenes in AOTC and ROTS revolving around Darth Maul being alive ruling Mandalore and Ahsoka’s whereabouts and in ROTJ when Palpatine ordered the purge of Mandalore!

Plus Palatine's multiple time heists while disbanding the Senate in ANH!

 

[ajp4mgs]

According to the OT? No.

Even Palpatine called out a lightsaber as being "a Jedi's weapon." Vader had one because he used to be a Jedi. Old Ben described a lightsaber as being the weapon of a Jedi Knight (as opposed to any random person who could use the Force.)

TPM changed that when it introduced Darth Maul and then every additional movie and TV episode seemed specifically designed to make OT Ben and Yoda bigger and bigger liars with each new reveal. It's possible to enjoy the new stuff while still having a good chuckle about that fact.

And still defined as "the weapon of a Jedi" on the official Star Wars website.

Lightsaber

Lightsabers aside, though, in an era of SW post Jedi Council, I consider a character to be a Jedi when all of the following are true:

• Having received Jedi training
• Actively putting those learned Jedi arts into practice (in combat or otherwise)
• Demonstrating an ongoing effort to behave in accordance with Jedi teachings
• Passing a major trial of selflessness where upholding Jedi values requires rejecting great temptation to go a different (easier or more personally beneficial) way

Y'know... pretty much the qualifications that made Luke a Jedi Knight in a way that no one ever questions. But hey, maybe that's just me.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Having media literacy means having consumed enough of it to understand creative intent and storytelling context better than the average person. The people spotlighting the contradiction of these characters existing during ROTJ are the ones demonstrating superior media literacy by recognizing what Lucas intended to convey back in 1983 and understanding how storytelling context makes these characters contradict that intent despite the ineffectual "technicalities" given for why they supposedly don't.

From an industry standpoint, everyone I've talked to involved with legacy Star Wars have all pretty much said the same thing in private - Alec Guinness hated doing the film and wanted out.

Yoda exists because young Lucas was simply not David Lean. I can see how someone would be spoiled with expectations after being Lean's personal muse for so long and then get thrown into this sort of odd ball sci fi western with a somewhat clunky script. There needed to be a replacement for Obi Wan as a mentor to Luke.

Lucas was making a lot of it up as he went along. Or other people infused things ( McQuarrie, Kershner, Kasdan, Guinness, etc, etc) that he infused and got credit for in the end. Also there is non stop shameless lifting from Kurosawa. Now if someone like Tolkien said he had a long plan and vision, that I would believe. But Lucas trying to claim having it all in his head from the beginning denies the practical collaborative process in the industry.

The story had to change because Guinness wanted out. A puppet also can't talk back to you or shame you for your script writing skills, or lack of them.

Another factor is Empire and Jedi were functionally self financed. In order to secure his future, Lucas needed enough changeover in material and visuals to justify lots and lots of merchandising.

Most of the time, I simply hand wave off what Lucas says as rationalization. I appreciate that he gave the world the gift of the Holy Trilogy. But his denials of having to patch over the practical film making process is more for his ego than to protect the brand. Sometimes it won't all fit together. This is why identity politics in Star Wars is so dangerous for it's longevity. When Star Wars was lighthearted and fun and a big adventure, people could more easily let some plot holes go. But as you get more and more serious, more grim, more political grand standing in your writing, then people begin to demand all other ancillary aspects of hyper realism.

On one hand, God bless George Lucas. For changing our entire culture. On the other hand, he lost his fastball a long long long time ago. And anything he has to say about lore, I'd just take it with the same grain of salt as if I was listening to someone rambling in an old folks home.

 

[jye4ever]

Tonight’s the episode that’s going to cure cancer, stop famine, end wars and fix Toys Wonderland!

 

[Johnny Utah]

I heard some rumours that wound up being cut from the episode supposedly, and others that are still in. Either way, I'm excited to see it.

 

[xipotec]

And still defined as "the weapon of a Jedi" on the official Star Wars website.

Lightsaber

Lightsabers aside, though, in an era of SW post Jedi Council, I consider a character to be a Jedi when all of the following are true:

• Having received Jedi training
• Actively putting those learned Jedi arts into practice (in combat or otherwise)
• Demonstrating an ongoing effort to behave in accordance with Jedi teachings
• Passing a major trial of selflessness where upholding Jedi values requires rejecting great temptation to go a different (easier or more personally beneficial) way

Y'know... pretty much the qualifications that made Luke a Jedi Knight in a way that no one ever questions. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Does Qui Gon not say "What if I killed a Jedi and took it from him"

 

[chrisstbh]

Does Qui Gon not say "What if I killed a Jedi and took it from him"

 

[Ramatuelle]

This meme only hold water if you believe somehow Yoda knew every Jedi in the galaxy, which once died and which survived.

How would he NOT know them - the ones still alive, at least - or at least be able to sense them? was not Yoda the most powerful Force user still alive at the time? Even if he didn't know their names, could he not feel them as alive in the Force?! What kind of supreme Jedi Master was this, if not!?!

Yoda gave Luke a very selectly-edited version of the truth, if you ask me, and so did Kenobi. Why would they bother lying to Luke? What was to be gained? Who knows! Most of those people were dead and still the truth had to be hidden. If one were dying, would it not be what you wanted to help your last little apprentice make contact with someone who MAYBE could continue their Jedi journey? Make it make sense!

 

[ajp4mgs]

Does Qui Gon not say "What if I killed a Jedi and took it from him"

Of course a non-Jedi can come across a lightsaber and wield it. We've technically known that since Han sliced open a Tauntaun with one. A lightsaber isn't an exclusive weapon like Excalibur or Mjolnir. However, lightsabers are associated with Jedi, have been defined as the weapon of a Jedi since the first movie, and is why Anakin was right in his assumption that Qui-Gon was one.

But I didn't focus my post on lightsabers, and in fact stated: "Lightsabers aside, though..." to preface what I *did* focus on. That being the fact that other things *do* make a lightsaber-wielding character a Jedi, no matter how inconvenient or troublesome that is for continuity.

Merely wielding a lightsaber doesn't automatically make someone a Jedi, but if you are trained by a Jedi, you have learned to use the Force as a result, you continue living by Jedi teachings, and you use your lightsaber to fight on the side of the Jedi... you might be a Jedi.

 

[ajp4mgs]

From an industry standpoint, everyone I've talked to involved with legacy Star Wars have all pretty much said the same thing in private - Alec Guinness hated doing the film and wanted out.

Yoda exists because young Lucas was simply not David Lean. I can see how someone would be spoiled with expectations after being Lean's personal muse for so long and then get thrown into this sort of odd ball sci fi western with a somewhat clunky script. There needed to be a replacement for Obi Wan as a mentor to Luke.

Lucas was making a lot of it up as he went along. Or other people infused things ( McQuarrie, Kershner, Kasdan, Guinness, etc, etc) that he infused and got credit for in the end. Also there is non stop shameless lifting from Kurosawa. Now if someone like Tolkien said he had a long plan and vision, that I would believe. But Lucas trying to claim having it all in his head from the beginning denies the practical collaborative process in the industry.

The story had to change because Guinness wanted out. A puppet also can't talk back to you or shame you for your script writing skills, or lack of them.

Another factor is Empire and Jedi were functionally self financed. In order to secure his future, Lucas needed enough changeover in material and visuals to justify lots and lots of merchandising.

Most of the time, I simply hand wave off what Lucas says as rationalization. I appreciate that he gave the world the gift of the Holy Trilogy. But his denials of having to patch over the practical film making process is more for his ego than to protect the brand. Sometimes it won't all fit together. This is why identity politics in Star Wars is so dangerous for it's longevity. When Star Wars was lighthearted and fun and a big adventure, people could more easily let some plot holes go. But as you get more and more serious, more grim, more political grand standing in your writing, then people begin to demand all other ancillary aspects of hyper realism.

On one hand, God bless George Lucas. For changing our entire culture. On the other hand, he lost his fastball a long long long time ago. And anything he has to say about lore, I'd just take it with the same grain of salt as if I was listening to someone rambling in an old folks home.

I disagree with your characterization of "non stop shameless lifting from Kurosawa." If you call the Kurosawa homages that Lucas used in Star Wars a "shameless lifting," I'd be curious to know how you'd characterize Sergio Leone's A Fistful of Dollars, especially considering how Kurosawa felt about that film versus his professional relationship with George Lucas.

As for the rest, we've all known for decades that Lucas was making up a ton of his story on the fly. There's enough behind-the-scenes documentation to bury an elephant under. But once that trilogy was finished and "in the books," it would've been nice not to keep contradicting it. That goes for Lucas himself, but especially for writers/directors who didn't actually create the IP in the first place.

Luke Skywalker's story arc was not only following the monomyth template as outlined by Joseph Campbell, but was connected to timeless legends of the past in a broader and more fundamental sense that worked so well by playing to our innate sensibilities favoring "our only hope" protagonists. Being the last Jedi at the end of that trilogy was purposeful. It makes him both the end of the old line and the beginning of the new. It sets his destiny apart as not only being a fulcrum point but also having a singularly unique call to action.

We don't need to take George Lucas at his word for the intent. It's clear enough on its own. Why mess with that intent by narrowing the scope of Luke's singularity to just redeeming his father? Can't stories be told all these years later that don't need to risk treading on something that deeply relevant to a trilogy that has been so iconic for several decades?

 

[Dave_W]

"No more no training you require. Already know you, that which you need."

"Jedi then?"

"Nope"

Lucas muddied it with the PT. Is 'Jedi' short for Jedi Knight. Are Padawans not considered Jedi? If they are Jedi then why wasn't Luke one until the end of ROTJ?

 

[ajp4mgs]

"No more no training you require. Already know you, that which you need."

"Jedi then?"

"Nope"

Lucas muddied it with the PT. Is 'Jedi' short for Jedi Knight. Are Padawans not considered Jedi? If they are Jedi then why wasn't Luke one until the end of ROTJ?

In the PT era, students were chosen/rejected into the Jedi Order for training. They would then have to pass Jedi trials to be full Jedi. In the OT, there was no such Order, much less a Council. But Luke still had to pass a trial for Yoda to consider him a full Jedi. It's a long-standing concept in hero's journey and general fantasy storytelling.

Ezra faced what I consider an even tougher trial of selflessness by resisting the opportunity to undo history and bring his parents back and/or save Kanan from death. With respect to the Luke Skywalker "new Jedi" path we saw in the OT, I'd say Ezra was a Jedi by the time he took a space whales ride to another galaxy.

 

[jye4ever]

 

[xipotec]

How would he NOT know them - the ones still alive, at least - or at least be able to sense them? was not Yoda the most powerful Force user still alive at the time? Even if he didn't know their names, could he not feel them as alive in the Force?! What kind of supreme Jedi Master was this, if not!?!

Yoda gave Luke a very selectly-edited version of the truth, if you ask me, and so did Kenobi. Why would they bother lying to Luke? What was to be gained? Who knows! Most of those people were dead and still the truth had to be hidden. If one were dying, would it not be what you wanted to help your last little apprentice make contact with someone who MAYBE could continue their Jedi journey? Make it make sense!

Your entire first paragraph is wrong.....

If Yoda was so powerful he couldn't sense Palpatine right under his nose.

This again, is SW fans huge downfall. They idolized every OT good guy to god status, based on nothing. If its that easy to sense another Jedi from across the universe.....how did Yoda remain hidden from one of his own counsel members?

 

[MeatHookGekko]

As for the rest, we've all known for decades that Lucas was making up a ton of his story on the fly. There's enough behind-the-scenes documentation to bury an elephant under. But once that trilogy was finished and "in the books," it would've been nice not to keep contradicting it. That goes for Lucas himself, but especially for writers/directors who didn't actually create the IP in the first place.

If it was up to me, and it's not, there would be the Holy Trilogy and nothing else.

On a personal level, I find it bizarre that there are so many Jedi still milling around in the post ROTJ timelines. Lucas sold you out. And all the other fans. If he wanted a pure lockdown on consistent continuity and honoring his original world building, then he shouldn't have sold it to The Big Mouse. But the reality is the longer a "universe" or franchise goes, the more ridiculous it becomes against it's original roots. Basically every "hit" on Showtime is a test case for that (Weeds, Shameless, Homeland, Billions, etc, etc)

For example, I personally end Indiana Jones at IJ-TLC. And everything else is kind of high powered fan fiction. That's kind of how I separate out the things I loved in my childhood to it's current cash grab merchandising pimping bastard self inflicted mess that came a generation later.

But I'll still hold that even the Holy Trilogy had some inconsistencies in it, by the very nature of the organic filmmaking process.

You cannot stretch the world building this far and for this long and not have it all fall apart ( books, video games, new movies, new TV shows, new animation, behind the scenes, interviews, etc, etc, etc) I don't disagree with you in principle, but your expectations are not in lock step with how this all tends to work across the bottom line.

Lucas started out trying to make art. Now it's packaged like it's being churned out by an energy drink company. I'm not dogmatic about his lore because I personally let it all go once he clearly sold out. Sold himself out. Sold you out. Sold me out. Sold out all the fans. This is like U2 secretly donating to the PIRA in the beginning and then evolved into doing movie soundtracks with Bono doing cameos on Entourage.

You want to honor the artform in principle. And I respect that. I truly do. But these are energy drinks. Disney is not a family friendly company, they are basically just pimps that shovel off content instead of two dollar whores at closing time. But the methodology is the same. It's not art anymore, it's glitzed up like an energy drink. But instead of a soul, it's still that same two dollar whore at closing time right down in the gooey center.

It's very likely we actually want the same things, but the difference is probably our expectations on the established process involved.

 

[The Buffinator]

Tonight’s the episode that’s going to cure cancer, stop famine, end wars and fix Toys Wonderland!

But alas, the PT will still be god awful....

 

[ZE_501]

Merely wielding a lightsaber doesn't automatically make someone a Jedi, but if you are trained by a Jedi, you have learned to use the Force as a result, you continue living by Jedi teachings, and you use your lightsaber to fight on the side of the Jedi... you might be a Jedi.

We could replace 'Jedi' with 'Shaolin' and it begins to make more sense.

You might know Kung Fu but that doesn't make you a Shaolin Monk.

In Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon -- they had a name for proficient martial artists with no master or moral center -- "poisoned dragons" (errr... Sith?)

Every Jedi is a Force user but not every Force user is a Jedi. That much makes sense to me. But as for what Nu Star Wars has done to continuity we thought was established in the OT ... well that seems to be out the airlock and as many have pointed out, it was always sketchy.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

How would he NOT know them - the ones still alive, at least - or at least be able to sense them? was not Yoda the most powerful Force user still alive at the time? Even if he didn't know their names, could he not feel them as alive in the Force?! What kind of supreme Jedi Master was this, if not!?!

That's a more than fair question. A great question actually.

The only answer I can give you is the same guy who conceived that contradiction or rubber stamped it, is also the same guy who had a pure lockdown on The Phantom Menace merchandising and orchestrated such a lopsided deal with Toys R Us, that it was alleged that it aided and sped up it's eventual downfall. Lucas thought that kids would buy Sio Bibble. He also made it a point to ensure shortpacking of basic Stormtroopers with his mid 90s Power Of The Force reboot and of Darth Maul in Episode 1. What kind of sadist would make it hard for kids to find a Darth Maul on a toy store shelf?

Lucas is part creative genius and part fallible like everyone else.

It's not going to add up. Someone will try to patch it over. But it's just going to have plotholes. Personally I differentiate things like Interstellar ( plot has huge holes in it, but it's entertaining and the soundtrack/score and visuals carry a lot of it's weight for it) and Prometheus ( huge freeway exit sized plotholes but Charlize Theron apparently doesn't know to run sideways. ) If it's fun or interesting and everyone is having a good time or gets spectacle, people are more apt to let things go. Once it's a grind and another energy drink from The Big Mouse, then the microscopes tend to come out.

The Holy Trilogy was fun. It was a good time. IMHO, that's part of why it's flaws are often forgiven. Kathleen Kennedy's only goal seems to be trying to shame people for loving what they loved as kids, as if they are guilty because she started her career on her knees. You always have a choice. Brandon Routh had a choice at some point to get up out of Bryan Singer's hot tub. Legacy fans are simply less tolerant once you openly try to shame them.

At some level, IMHO, a lot of this can be fixed by just going back to basic fundamental storytelling, trying to give the audience a good time and honoring the characters instead of trying to Moneyball everything with some infused agenda.

“I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” - Maya Angelou

 

[ajp4mgs]

If it was up to me, and it's not, there would be the Holy Trilogy and nothing else.

On a personal level, I find it bizarre that there are so many Jedi still milling around in the post ROTJ timelines. Lucas sold you out. And all the other fans. If he wanted a pure lockdown on consistent continuity and honoring his original world building, then he shouldn't have sold it to The Big Mouse. But the reality is the longer a "universe" or franchise goes, the more ridiculous it becomes against it's original roots. Basically every "hit" on Showtime is a test case for that (Weeds, Shameless, Homeland, Billions, etc, etc)

For example, I personally end Indiana Jones at IJ-TLC. And everything else is kind of high powered fan fiction. That's kind of how I separate out the things I loved in my childhood to it's current cash grab merchandising pimping bastard self inflicted mess that came a generation later.

But I'll still hold that even the Holy Trilogy had some inconsistencies in it, by the very nature of the organic filmmaking process.

You cannot stretch the world building this far and for this long and not have it all fall apart ( books, video games, new movies, new TV shows, new animation, behind the scenes, interviews, etc, etc, etc) I don't disagree with you in principle, but your expectations are not in lock step with how this all tends to work across the bottom line.

Lucas started out trying to make art. Now it's packaged like it's being churned out by an energy drink company. I'm not dogmatic about his lore because I personally let it all go once he clearly sold out. Sold himself out. Sold you out. Sold me out. Sold out all the fans. This is like U2 secretly donating to the PIRA in the beginning and then evolved into doing movie soundtracks with Bono doing cameos on Entourage.

You want to honor the artform in principle. And I respect that. I truly do. But these are energy drinks. Disney is not a family friendly company, they are basically just pimps that shovel off content instead of two dollar whores at closing time. But the methodology is the same. It's not art anymore, it's glitzed up like an energy drink. But instead of a soul, it's still that same two dollar whore at closing time right down in the gooey center.

It's very likely we actually want the same things, but the difference is probably our expectations on the established process involved.

This time I can't disagree with anything in your post. Some of it sad, but most of it true, and all of it an enjoyable read.

The only modicum of pushback I'd give is on the idea that long-running franchises are inescapably destined to end up self-contradictory and watered down. I say this because of how much of a revelation I considered Andor to be. But then I remember it was the lowest-rated of the SW shows, and your point becomes crystallized.

A franchise like SW has what I consider an abundant excess of untapped and unexplored storytelling potential, and yet the lucrative projects (as far as studio revenue is concerned) seem to be the ones that just keep lazily trying to mine the same quarry - ultimately just trampling on the original treasure in the process.

That's my long-winded way of saying "yep, I guess you're right."

 

[Ramatuelle]

Your entire first paragraph is wrong.....

If Yoda was so powerful he couldn't sense Palpatine right under his nose.

This again, is SW fans huge downfall. They idolized every OT good guy to god status, based on nothing. If its that easy to sense another Jedi from across the universe.....how did Yoda remain hidden from one of his own counsel members?

Don't get me started! The fact that the Jedi Council was all "hurrr-durrrr...... WHUT?! he's a WHAT??!!!" about Palpatine is one big reason I have very little respect for them. Was Yoda just phoning it in? Seems like it!

I used to know this girl who had a Master's degree in Social Sciences, I think it was and she could NOT wrap her mind around running a modern cash register. Could not do it! Yoda was a very smart being who was equally frickin' clueless about the practical stuff.