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I guess, I just wanted to see him more often then we did. The big eye just wasn't enough for me.

That's all he was by the time of TLOTR, or 'The War of the Rings'. His physical body was long dead and he was just a presence, even in The Hobbit he will just be a 'presence' working through the Necromancer.

Other than making the rings and finally appearing on the battlefield at Dagorlad, to see Sauron in his prime as a shapeshifting bad-a**, would need a big chunk of The Silmarillion to be filmed :wink1:

Pretty much this Az covers its.

so in what timeline/book is sauron actually the sauron we see in statues?

Its during the second age of Middle-Earth. Figure sometime before or right during The Battle of the Last Alliance.
 
Sauron does have a physical form at the time of the LoTR. Gollum even states that he saw the dark lord and the hand missing the one rings that Isuldur cut from his black hand.

His ability to appear beautiful to elves and men was lost when he was in Numenor. Only his dark form remained after Numenor was destroyed by Eru.
 
Sauron does have a physical form at the time of the LoTR. Gollum even states that he saw the dark lord and the hand missing the one rings that Isuldur cut from his black hand.

His ability to appear beautiful to elves and men was lost when he was in Numenor. Only his dark form remained after Numenor was destroyed by Eru.

It's a spirit form, he does not have physical substance, similar to the wraiths. His form is also glimpsed above the ruin of Barad Dur when it is destroyed with his 'head' crowned in lightning. Just as the eye itself is only percieved in the mind, it has no physical form.
 
i really don't get the call for wanting statues to be solid, especially at this size.

It would weigh too much and shipping will be killer.

Not to mention worrying about the stress it will place on the stands the statue is placed on.

Hollow is not bad so long as the cast is THICK enough. :)
 
I treat the prequels as totally different movies from the originals. They're just too different to me.

I don't think I've watched the prequels all the way through since I first saw them in the theater. I catch them once in a while on Spike, but just bits and pieces. They could fall off the face of the Earth for all I care.

I just hope I live long enough to see the original trilogy as seen in theaters on blu.

There are some fanedits out there that are trying to improve the PT. I have a couple coming my way from a friend in the next month or two.

There is also a 720p version of the OT by a guy named Harmy that is the original theatrical versions (it's even missing the Episode IV wording like it was in 1977). They look damn good! :yess:
 
is his full figure appearance set before or after the Hobbit?

Waaay before. The battle shown at the begining of LOTR shows Sauron losing the ring. In the Hobbit, Gollum has found the ring which has been lost for centuries and he in turn has it for (i think) about 500 years. :wink1:



As for the solid build thing. I think it might just be refering too having his head permenantly attached as the SS/W piece (as mentioned) has a tendency to fall off at a gnats fart :lecture
 
I like Sauron a lot, and LOTR much more then SW, but for me, it's really a shame we only got to see small flashes of Sauron in whole and I just don't feel the character played as big of a part in the movies as he should have, since he's the main villain and all. That's the only thing I didn't like about LOTR.

I wish they have more at the beginning of The Hobbit. The war scenes would be awesome!
 
It's a spirit form, he does not have physical substance, similar to the wraiths. His form is also glimpsed above the ruin of Barad Dur when it is destroyed with his 'head' crowned in lightning. Just as the eye itself is only percieved in the mind, it has no physical form.

I am sorry DaveMac, but by the books, Sauron does have a solid form. The eye of Sauron is not a physical form, but represents all his spies.

There is a website called the encyclopedia of Arda. I use the books for source material and the site as quick hits. There is even a question there asking about Sauron's physical form.
 
Sauron was a Maia, and in his early career this meant that he had the ability to change shape at will: in the First Age, he seems to have had a generally human form (he's variously described as smiling, laughing, standing and so on), though in his battle with Huan he was able to shift freely between the forms of a wolf, a serpent and a flying vampire. In the Second Age, during the time when the Rings of Power were made, he took on the semblance of a noble teacher. However, his shape-changing abilities were not limitless, and after the Downfall of Númenor they were severely curtailed:

'...he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men...' (1)
After his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, things became even worse for him, and he lost his physical form altogether:

'...he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.' (2)
This was in the last year of the Second Age. The story of The Lord of the Rings is set more than three thousand years later, in the closing years of the Third Age, but that book includes only the slightest hints of a description of Sauron. No doubt Tolkien kept Sauron in the shadows for good dramatic reasons, leaving it to the reader's imagination to create something darker and more fearsome than a mere description could convey. This literary device has left behind something of a puzzle: what actually did Sauron look like? For that matter, did he have any kind of physical body at all?

The question is made more complicated by the recurrence of the image of the Red Eye, which often appears to signify Sauron. In some places, this is clearly used as a symbol, but in others it actually seems to be - at least partially - a physical description. This is the Eye that Frodo saw in the Mirror of Galadriel:

'The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing.' (3)
This has led more than a few readers to interpret the Eye absolutely literally, to the point where Sauron is imagined simply as a burning eyeball. The most notable of these readers, of course, is Peter Jackson, who used the motif of the glowing eye throughout his trilogy of movies. Indeed, at one point in the movie The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman explicitly states of Sauron that 'he cannot yet take physical form' (though nothing comparable to this appears in the book).

This isn't an unreasonable position to take. There are numerous references to the Red Eye as a symbol for Sauron, and in places it's difficult to tell where the symbol ends and the physical description begins. For example:

'The Red Eye will be looking towards Isengard.' (4)
On the other hand, there are several references to 'the red eye' that clearly have nothing to do with Sauron at all. There's an example of this in the following quote, where the 'red eye' is in the Tower of Cirith Ungol:

'Now the orc-tower was right above him, frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed.' (6)
Here, the idea of the red eye embodies the unsleeping watchfulness of Mordor, and has no direct relation to Sauron. In fact, there are reasons to think that the capitalised 'Red Eye' is simply an extension of this metaphor. For example, speaking of Sauron's fingers, Gollum - who has apparently seen the Dark Lord with his own eyes - says:

'He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough.' (5)
It follows that if Sauron has a Black Hand, he cannot merely be a Red Eye. There seems to be at least one metaphor in use here. Actually, there is quite a weight of evidence within The Lord of the Rings that Sauron had some kind of physical form:

'...if the Nameless One himself should come, not even he could enter here while we yet live.' (7)
'And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact ... until He [Sauron] sends or comes Himself.' (6)
'He [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won.' (7)
The characters who say these lines (including his own Orcs) all seem to believe that Sauron could easily travel from one place to another. In particular, Aragorn seems to believe that Sauron not only has a physical form, but that it would be possible to do harm to that form:

'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him.' (8)
Curiously, this line was used word-for-word in the movie version of The Return of the King, despite the fact that Sauron was depicted there as an apparently immobile glowing eye.

If we move to Tolkien's letters, it becomes hard to avoid the conclusion that Sauron did, indeed, have a physical shape. For instance, there's a reference there to:

'...the year 1000 of the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron began first to grow again to new shape.' (9)
The War of the Ring started in the year 3018 of the Third Age - it's hard to imagine that after more than two thousand years, Sauron still hadn't formed a new shape for himself. There's another reference among Tolkien's letters that goes even further, to the extent that it effectively settles the discussion:

'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.' (10)
This is from a letter specifically discussing the events at the end of The Lord of the Rings, so there's really no question that it describes Sauron as Tolkien saw him then. In fact, it seems that the huge armoured Sauron that appears at the beginning of the movie The Fellowship of the Ring probably fits Tolkien's vision rather better than the image of a glowing eye.

Sources
1 The Silmarillion: Akallabêth
2 The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
3 The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, The Mirror of Galadriel
4 The Two Towers III 9, Flotsam & Jetsam
5 The Two Towers IV 3, The Black Gate is Closed
6 The Two Towers IV 10, The Choices of Master Samwise
7 The Return of the King V 4, The Siege of Gondor
8 The Return of the King V 10, The Black Gate Opens
9 The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954
10 The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 246, dated 1963



From the encyclopedia of Arda. Had to edit to give appropriate credit.
 
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No problem. I love LoTR and to talk on the subject. It is great reading everyone's post. Nice to see some more activity in this section.

When does comic con start Josh?

Same here. There is no subject matter I love to talk about more in regards to this kind of thing than Middle-Earth. Ditto my friend. Seeing this section come to life again brings a mistyness to my eyes.

A week from today. :rock
 
Great post, TD, really interesting read. In regards to this portion, though:

TD-0488 said:
'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him.' (8)

Curiously, this line was used word-for-word in the movie version of The Return of the King, despite the fact that Sauron was depicted there as an apparently immobile glowing eye.
I only went through some of the additional content included with the DVDs and went through it pretty quickly, but I thought that Jackson initially did have Sauron confront Aragorn at the Black Gate. Sauron was then digitially replaced with the cave troll due to the internet backlash once it leaked that Jackson was going to show Sauron in his physical form. Would that explain keeping the line as-is or am I mis-remembering this?
 
Yeah, I've seen the unedited clip and I'm glad he changed it. Sauron could not take physical form until he had the ring. So it would have been a bad idea to have that change in the movie.
 
That is just the movie. And he was to appear fair as Annatar! The shape he took when helping forge the rings. Though Gil-Galad was not deceived and would not allow himin his realm.

There are two versions here at play?..

Tolkien and his vision through the books. Sauron had a form during the war of LoTR. He had poured most of his power into the ring. So, to re-acquire the ring would have made his power whole.

Jackson and the movie. Jackson made him form less it seems and to have the ring would have given him his form back.

Depends on the version you want to go with. Jackson did a wonderful job on the movies and I am glad they were made. Still, I go with the source...Tolkien.
 
Definitely agree that it's good Jackson changed the scene. Although I wasn't up in arms about it in terms of actually taking any action, I was glad when I'd heard it had been scrapped. But I mean just in regards to the incongruity of having Aragorn demand Sauron's presence when he's perceived to be immobile throughout the movies. Just thinking Jackson included that line because he initially intended for Sauron to come out, then left it in after editing Sauron to a cave troll because the line still works metaphorically.

Have to say I do prefer Jackson's interpretation of Sauron as a physical eye, though. All the scenes depicting him that way (favourite being when Frodo accidently puts the ring on in the Prancing Pony - "I see you...") are among my favourites and really go a long way in regards to making him seem threatening.
 
The way Tolkien described Sauron I always imagined him to be like a ringwraith. However, to take full physical form he would need the ring.
 
Yeah, I could see that (ringwraith form until getting ring). If that was the case, though, I wonder why Tolkien never utilized Sauron in any scenes he wrote with other characters. I get it would demystify him somewhat, but then why not just leave him formless/immobile like Jackson did if he's not going to interact with anything, anyway. Think that's why I find Jackson's interpretation a bit more consistant and easier to reconcile.
 
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